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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 8, 2018 0:34:18 GMT
This is something I don't quite get, though people reference that here. I see how distancing is avoiding intimacy/engulfment, but it is harder for me to wrap my head around how the AP style is also a means to avoid intimacy and signals emotionally unavailability. I (AP) feel mutual intimacy is what I seek, and when I receive consistency and intimacy, I am happy and feel secure and safe to really love the other person. Can you explain a bit?
It's true that being AP you deeply want intimacy, believe in it, feel you're all about it, imagine it, think you're great at it, etc., but you are most likely to repeatedly feel the most desire to share it towards people who can only offer it temporarily or intermittently-- thus you never really find it beyond temporarily. This may seem like you haven't found the "right person" or that you have found them and due to it being a cruel universe they keep disassociating, rejecting you or walking away. But it's worth exploring why you aren't wanting or able to share intimacy with the whole masses of other people who are more there, or why you are not more there. Like epicgum said, it's not conscious at all. The conscious identity is that you are the opposite of avoiding intimacy.
In fact I'm not so sure the AP avoids intimacy even if they persist in patterns that allows it to not really happen; more like they've become wired to believe you can't trust it, and are subconsciously drawn to people with whom they mutually enforce that narrative. I think an AP-type is certainly capable of intimacy, but you have to find people either secure or stubborn enough to stick around enough to make it happen and that's just often not who the AP-type tends to most desire due to all the subconscious...stuff.
I'm biased in this regard, but I get not getting the "AP avoids intimacy" thing. Just if you identify as most AP, look at the pattern of your life and how it has actually played out and how you might be playing some role in your own not having sustained intimacy.
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Post by gummydrop on Dec 8, 2018 23:50:07 GMT
So what is real intimacy and how do you know you have it? How does it feel? In the context I'm talking about it here, it's having true stability in the relationship. That having a disagreement or revealing yourself in a not-perfect light or having needs and needing help isn't enough to turn off and drive away your partner. No perception, either real or imagined, of walking on eggshells just being who you are. Honesty and trust being strong when life isn't going as well as it could be and being able to rely on your partner to be there and vice-versa, because you don't need each other to complete you. You're both already complete and choosing to support each other when necessary instead of mostly focusing on your own needs and insecurities (ie everything isn't easy and perfect, this person must not be the one). I'm not saying everything has to be unconditional. If showing yourself in a bad light means you're being abusive, no one should put up with that. But in insecurely attached situations, it usually means what should be small issues get blown up because of insecurities, fears, and miscommunication or lack of communication unrelated to the partner and relationship -- problems arising from the individual's issues being projected onto the relationship. When that happens, it blocks real intimacy because there's not enough comfort with vulnerability and authenticity. Alexandra this is one of the best replies I've ever seen on this board. Thank you for writing it. So accurate. So powerful. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 9, 2018 0:41:15 GMT
I'm not sure about this fluidity thing. He might just have more anxiety or FA than you thought. For attachment to be "situational" really would undercut the usefulness of the concept for me. I think people can be on their best behaviour for a time, which can be hours, days, weeks, months.... When we relax, it all comes to the surface. |
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Post by boomerang on Dec 9, 2018 1:34:24 GMT
This is something I don't quite get, though people reference that here. I see how distancing is avoiding intimacy/engulfment, but it is harder for me to wrap my head around how the AP style is also a means to avoid intimacy and signals emotionally unavailability. I (AP) feel mutual intimacy is what I seek, and when I receive consistency and intimacy, I am happy and feel secure and safe to really love the other person. Can you explain a bit? Great point! I was also thinking of this. the issue i think is when APs get triggered (or even when they are not), they're constantly obsessing. this anxiety keeps them away from a place of being able to connect with the partner because they're in their own head, making stories about stuff. and so when the partner finally does say something or responds, the AP isn't in a place to catch it, so there's constant missing of each other's emotional bids. this is my own experience. Have a look at this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzki8U2nfwgThank you! That was a very useful video, I am beginning to see what this means .. |
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Post by boomerang on Dec 9, 2018 2:09:38 GMT
This is something I don't quite get, though people reference that here. I see how distancing is avoiding intimacy/engulfment, but it is harder for me to wrap my head around how the AP style is also a means to avoid intimacy and signals emotionally unavailability. I (AP) feel mutual intimacy is what I seek, and when I receive consistency and intimacy, I am happy and feel secure and safe to really love the other person. Can you explain a bit?
It's true that being AP you deeply want intimacy, believe in it, feel you're all about it, imagine it, think you're great at it, etc., but you are most likely to repeatedly feel the most desire to share it towards people who can only offer it temporarily or intermittently-- thus you never really find it beyond temporarily. This may seem like you haven't found the "right person" or that you have found them and due to it being a cruel universe they keep disassociating, rejecting you or walking away. But it's worth exploring why you aren't wanting or able to share intimacy with the whole masses of other people who are more there, or why you are not more there. Like epicgum said, it's not conscious at all. The conscious identity is that you are the opposite of avoiding intimacy.
In fact I'm not so sure the AP avoids intimacy even if they persist in patterns that allows it to not really happen; more like they've become wired to believe you can't trust it, and are subconsciously drawn to people with whom they mutually enforce that narrative. I think an AP-type is certainly capable of intimacy, but you have to find people either secure or stubborn enough to stick around enough to make it happen and that's just often not who the AP-type tends to most desire due to all the subconscious...stuff.
I'm biased in this regard, but I get not getting the "AP avoids intimacy" thing. Just if you identify as most AP, look at the pattern of your life and how it has actually played out and how you might be playing some role in your own not having sustained intimacy.
There is a lot of insight in this whole post. Thank you!
And boy, yes, I think --for me, at least- it is bottom line a trust issue. Your history (family, romantic or deep interpersonal relationships) is you get love/approval and then it's withdrawn/you are not "enough" as you "are" to sustain it, so you build defenses. Then, when it happens in the AP/DA dance, that gets reinforced in spades. So, when you do have the moments of real intimacy, maybe you can receive/give, but it is very hard to be fully open. Because your wiring tells you the other shoe is going to drop. Which it often does, in the AP/DA dynamic. For both sides.
I have realized in thinking about all this that in our "good period", my DA actually showed more emotional vulnerability than I did. That sure is food for thought.
I am beginning to wonder if one of the keys to overcoming attachment wounds is learning to be emotionally vulnerable (as opposed to making verbal statements--which I can do) about what one needs. Fear is a huge, huge part of all this--the anxiety, the obsession, the defenses... I don't know where the "learn to love yourself" and "overcome fear" parts intersect. Or what resources one should develop to call on when the fear is realized.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 2:28:44 GMT
It's true that being AP you deeply want intimacy, believe in it, feel you're all about it, imagine it, think you're great at it, etc., but you are most likely to repeatedly feel the most desire to share it towards people who can only offer it temporarily or intermittently-- thus you never really find it beyond temporarily. This may seem like you haven't found the "right person" or that you have found them and due to it being a cruel universe they keep disassociating, rejecting you or walking away. But it's worth exploring why you aren't wanting or able to share intimacy with the whole masses of other people who are more there, or why you are not more there. Like epicgum said, it's not conscious at all. The conscious identity is that you are the opposite of avoiding intimacy.
In fact I'm not so sure the AP avoids intimacy even if they persist in patterns that allows it to not really happen; more like they've become wired to believe you can't trust it, and are subconsciously drawn to people with whom they mutually enforce that narrative. I think an AP-type is certainly capable of intimacy, but you have to find people either secure or stubborn enough to stick around enough to make it happen and that's just often not who the AP-type tends to most desire due to all the subconscious...stuff.
I'm biased in this regard, but I get not getting the "AP avoids intimacy" thing. Just if you identify as most AP, look at the pattern of your life and how it has actually played out and how you might be playing some role in your own not having sustained intimacy.
There is a lot of insight in this whole post. Thank you!
And boy, yes, I think --for me, at least- it is bottom line a trust issue. Your history (family, romantic or deep interpersonal relationships) is you get love/approval and then it's withdrawn/you are not "enough" as you "are" to sustain it, so you build defenses. Then, when it happens in the AP/DA dance, that gets reinforced in spades. So, when you do have the moments of real intimacy, maybe you can receive/give, but it is very hard to be fully open. Because your wiring tells you the other shoe is going to drop. Which it often does, in the AP/DA dynamic. For both sides.
I have realized in thinking about all this that in our "good period", my DA actually showed more emotional vulnerability than I did. That sure is food for thought.
I am beginning to wonder if one of the keys to overcoming attachment wounds is learning to be emotionally vulnerable (as opposed to making verbal statements--which I can do) about what one needs. Fear is a huge, huge part of all this--the anxiety, the obsession, the defenses... I don't know where the "learn to love yourself" and "overcome fear" parts intersect. Or what resources one should develop to call on when the fear is realized.
This is so good. so so good. yes. trust. trust that you are seen and accepted, trust that the other won't run just cos you won't behave in ways they want, trust that the love that they do give is real and authentic, trust that you will be ok receiving it and that you'll still be ok when they leave, trust in yourself as a person who is whole and full and self sufficient, with or without other people's approval/love/presence. i couldn't and didn't trust that anything the ex was giving me was real - it felt like he felt obligated and i knew if it was an obligation it wouldn't last and it isn't real, and i could not receive, and he felt rejected too. |
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Post by epicgum on Dec 9, 2018 17:27:16 GMT
I'm not sure about this fluidity thing. He might just have more anxiety or FA than you thought. For attachment to be "situational" really would undercut the usefulness of the concept for me. I think people can be on their best behaviour for a time, which can be hours, days, weeks, months.... When we relax, it all comes to the surface. Actually, I think it's subtly different. I think for me, when you are relaxed you can be secure without too much issue. It's when we get threatened and under stress that our attachment system rears up. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 10, 2018 0:39:40 GMT
It's true that being AP you deeply want intimacy, believe in it, feel you're all about it, imagine it, think you're great at it, etc., but you are most likely to repeatedly feel the most desire to share it towards people who can only offer it temporarily or intermittently-- thus you never really find it beyond temporarily. This may seem like you haven't found the "right person" or that you have found them and due to it being a cruel universe they keep disassociating, rejecting you or walking away. But it's worth exploring why you aren't wanting or able to share intimacy with the whole masses of other people who are more there, or why you are not more there. Like epicgum said, it's not conscious at all. The conscious identity is that you are the opposite of avoiding intimacy.
In fact I'm not so sure the AP avoids intimacy even if they persist in patterns that allows it to not really happen; more like they've become wired to believe you can't trust it, and are subconsciously drawn to people with whom they mutually enforce that narrative. I think an AP-type is certainly capable of intimacy, but you have to find people either secure or stubborn enough to stick around enough to make it happen and that's just often not who the AP-type tends to most desire due to all the subconscious...stuff.
I'm biased in this regard, but I get not getting the "AP avoids intimacy" thing. Just if you identify as most AP, look at the pattern of your life and how it has actually played out and how you might be playing some role in your own not having sustained intimacy.
There is a lot of insight in this whole post. Thank you!
And boy, yes, I think --for me, at least- it is bottom line a trust issue. Your history (family, romantic or deep interpersonal relationships) is you get love/approval and then it's withdrawn/you are not "enough" as you "are" to sustain it, so you build defenses. Then, when it happens in the AP/DA dance, that gets reinforced in spades. So, when you do have the moments of real intimacy, maybe you can receive/give, but it is very hard to be fully open. Because your wiring tells you the other shoe is going to drop. Which it often does, in the AP/DA dynamic. For both sides.
I have realized in thinking about all this that in our "good period", my DA actually showed more emotional vulnerability than I did. That sure is food for thought.
I am beginning to wonder if one of the keys to overcoming attachment wounds is learning to be emotionally vulnerable (as opposed to making verbal statements--which I can do) about what one needs. Fear is a huge, huge part of all this--the anxiety, the obsession, the defenses... I don't know where the "learn to love yourself" and "overcome fear" parts intersect. Or what resources one should develop to call on when the fear is realized.
I've had this experience too. It isn't that someone who is DA necessarily won't or cant show intimacy, sometimes they do so quite well, it's just that when it's withdrawn it's particularly hard on someone with AP leanings. The difficulty in asking for what one really wants is knowing the pain if the other person takes that information and rejects or leaves, etc.
Also it can be harder than we think to know what we really want and how to articulate that. Also sometimes what we really want is difficult to say without seeming controlling. Like we want someone to be reciprocal and stick around-- but how do you articulate that?
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 10, 2018 4:43:49 GMT
Enjoying the great insight here- making me think...
So when an AP’s are getting better and moving toward secure, we’ll be more confident expressing our needs to a partner (or potential partner) because we won’t be so fearful and anxious of our their reaction? We’ll feel ok showing our vulnerability bc we have our sense of security and love within- and it’s not reliant upon another’s validation. Also, the way we express our needs won’t be in a protesting, anxious way- we’ll just calmly bring it up without being defensive and assuming we won’t be heard. Sounds liberating....and I can imagine after some successful attempts- this would become easier.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 10, 2018 21:12:01 GMT
Enjoying the great insight here- making me think... So when an AP’s are getting better and moving toward secure, we’ll be more confident expressing our needs to a partner (or potential partner) because we won’t be so fearful and anxious of our their reaction? We’ll feel ok showing our vulnerability bc we have our sense of security and love within- and it’s not reliant upon another’s validation. Also, the way we express our needs won’t be in a protesting, anxious way- we’ll just calmly bring it up without being defensive and assuming we won’t be heard. Sounds liberating....and I can imagine after some successful attempts- this would become easier. Yes, that's been my experience. |
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Post by boomerang on Dec 11, 2018 0:25:04 GMT
Enjoying the great insight here- making me think... So when an AP’s are getting better and moving toward secure, we’ll be more confident expressing our needs to a partner (or potential partner) because we won’t be so fearful and anxious of our their reaction? We’ll feel ok showing our vulnerability bc we have our sense of security and love within- and it’s not reliant upon another’s validation. Also, the way we express our needs won’t be in a protesting, anxious way- we’ll just calmly bring it up without being defensive and assuming we won’t be heard. Sounds liberating....and I can imagine after some successful attempts- this would become easier. Yes, that's been my experience. I can't help but think the other half of this, though, is managing when the reaction is distancing/you feel not heard--doesn't that mean, as a secure, being able to walk away? For me, that's the trick. When I can do that, not in anger, not in protest, not in hurt, but just because it is a choice I make for me, that's when I think I would feel I had "made it" to secure.
But, it is hard for me to imagine ever being able to do that naturally when the reaction is disengagement, especially once a relationship has gone on awhile and I am invested. To a secure, that must sound crazy--why would you stay when the two of you can't come together? But for me, imagining doing this as a natural choice is really hard--my AP reaction is to try harder to be heard. I am just not in the place where I can pull that off emotionally, and I can't even (yet) project a future self who could.
I feel I started off largely like the above with my DA/FA, was able to calmly express, believed I would be heard. But over time, I got more and more triggered and by the end, was in the opposite place to the above. The ability to accept my partner as he is and let him go without blaming him or feeling rejection of me..that's where I would like to be.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 11, 2018 0:42:40 GMT
Yes, that's been my experience. I can't help but think the other half of this, though, is managing when the reaction is distancing/you feel not heard--doesn't that mean, as a secure, being able to walk away? For me, that's the trick. When I can do that, not in anger, not in protest, not in hurt, but just because it is a choice I make for me, that's when I think I would feel I had "made it" to secure.
But, it is hard for me to imagine ever being able to do that naturally when the reaction is disengagement, especially once a relationship has gone on awhile and I am invested. To a secure, that must sound crazy--why would you stay when the two of you can't come together? But for me, imagining doing this as a natural choice is really hard--my AP reaction is to try harder to be heard. I am just not in the place where I can pull that off emotionally, and I can't even (yet) project a future self who could.
I feel I started off largely like the above with my DA/FA, was able to calmly express, believed I would be heard. But over time, I got more and more triggered and by the end, was in the opposite place to the above. The ability to accept my partner as he is and let him go without blaming him or feeling rejection of me..that's where I would like to be.
Yes, but if you're in a relationship, you should try to communicate your needs and let your partner respond by stepping up or not (or telling you you're being unreasonable for some reason and weighing if it's legitimate feedback to take to heart) before you let go based on the lack of adequate conflict-resolution.
As an AP, that's incredibly hard because it can be so difficult to clearly, concisely, directly, sincerely communicate needs. You may think you're being clear, but if you feel afraid to say what you have to say (let's say either due to fear of loss/abandonment or because you don't believe you're worthwhile enough to get your needs met), it's just unlikely that you're going to say it without softening it somehow or giving caveats that make them more comfortable but don't fully meet your needs, or worse, just exploding because you've held it in too long and reached your boiling point. How often do you try to communicate something but then keep thinking of more and more and more to say when you didn't get the response you wanted? And want to try again to communicate about it over and over? Maybe that's just my past experience being AP, but being sure these days of what my needs are and what I have to say and just saying it once that's sorted out also means I feel confident it was communicated effectively and heard, and I don't have to keep ruminating about it if I don't get the response I wanted. There's no triggering involved, so I can say something, get a response of some sort, and then keep walking if it's not compatible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 1:18:08 GMT
yes. it's actually this sense of not being centered and you're leaning towards the person, and you feel all off-balance. that's why it's not about how do you fix the leanings and the communication, it's more important to develop this core sense of rootedness in your own center, and be stable in it. the more you are in the center, the less off-kilter you'll get, and the whole thing about leaving while invested will just become a secondary thought. when you're not in the center, it's so easy to get triggered -- been there done that, and i totally know what you mean boomerang. there's alot of discussion around communicating clearly, but i have not seen specific threads sharing examples of how to do that. I think i'd start one in the general discussion! (sorry to hijack this) |
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 11, 2018 5:00:38 GMT
I can't help but think the other half of this, though, is managing when the reaction is distancing/you feel not heard--doesn't that mean, as a secure, being able to walk away? For me, that's the trick. When I can do that, not in anger, not in protest, not in hurt, but just because it is a choice I make for me, that's when I think I would feel I had "made it" to secure.
But, it is hard for me to imagine ever being able to do that naturally when the reaction is disengagement, especially once a relationship has gone on awhile and I am invested. To a secure, that must sound crazy--why would you stay when the two of you can't come together? But for me, imagining doing this as a natural choice is really hard--my AP reaction is to try harder to be heard. I am just not in the place where I can pull that off emotionally, and I can't even (yet) project a future self who could.
I feel I started off largely like the above with my DA/FA, was able to calmly express, believed I would be heard. But over time, I got more and more triggered and by the end, was in the opposite place to the above. The ability to accept my partner as he is and let him go without blaming him or feeling rejection of me..that's where I would like to be.
Yes, but if you're in a relationship, you should try to communicate your needs and let your partner respond by stepping up or not (or telling you you're being unreasonable for some reason and weighing if it's legitimate feedback to take to heart) before you let go based on the lack of adequate conflict-resolution.
As an AP, that's incredibly hard because it can be so difficult to clearly, concisely, directly, sincerely communicate needs. You may think you're being clear, but if you feel afraid to say what you have to say (let's say either due to fear of loss/abandonment or because you don't believe you're worthwhile enough to get your needs met), it's just unlikely that you're going to say it without softening it somehow or giving caveats that make them more comfortable but don't fully meet your needs, or worse, just exploding because you've held it in too long and reached your boiling point. How often do you try to communicate something but then keep thinking of more and more and more to say when you didn't get the response you wanted? And want to try again to communicate about it over and over? Maybe that's just my past experience being AP, but being sure these days of what my needs are and what I have to say and just saying it once that's sorted out also means I feel confident it was communicated effectively and heard, and I don't have to keep ruminating about it if I don't get the response I wanted. There's no triggering involved, so I can say something, get a response of some sort, and then keep walking if it's not compatible.
Yes, I agree with all your AP points, and I feel like I’m getting to that place now of laying my needs before my ex and if he’s not willing or able to step up then we just agree to disagree and go separate ways. I didn’t have the security to contemplate this before but I’m heading there now. I texted him last week that I don’t want us to be just physical and if that’s how he thinks of me then I have to do what’s right for me. He responded that he doesn’t think of me as just physical but understands if I need to move on bc he knows he’s not right. I do believe he has feelings for me but the past year since our break he’s been shut down emotionally. So, even if he has feelings beyond physical- it doesn’t really help bc he doesn’t communicate this. All we do is go to his house, no dates or phone calls- it feels only physical to me. I wasn’t sure where to go from there so I pulled back and figured he can contact me. My last text was “It’s not that I don’t think you’re right, but I think you’d feel better if you talked to me or someone else about things pushed down inside, and...if I’m not just physical, then prove it!” He hasn’t responded and that was 5 days ago. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 11, 2018 21:13:20 GMT
Yes, I agree with all your AP points, and I feel like I’m getting to that place now of laying my needs before my ex and if he’s not willing or able to step up then we just agree to disagree and go separate ways. I didn’t have the security to contemplate this before but I’m heading there now. I texted him last week that I don’t want us to be just physical and if that’s how he thinks of me then I have to do what’s right for me. He responded that he doesn’t think of me as just physical but understands if I need to move on bc he knows he’s not right. I do believe he has feelings for me but the past year since our break he’s been shut down emotionally. So, even if he has feelings beyond physical- it doesn’t really help bc he doesn’t communicate this. All we do is go to his house, no dates or phone calls- it feels only physical to me. I wasn’t sure where to go from there so I pulled back and figured he can contact me. My last text was “It’s not that I don’t think you’re right, but I think you’d feel better if you talked to me or someone else about things pushed down inside, and...if I’m not just physical, then prove it!” He hasn’t responded and that was 5 days ago. I think it's also that as anxiety goes down and security goes up, when you have an insecure attachment styled partner or romantic interest... you may be attached but you can start to really believe, "wait. It IS you not me," and accept that since the other person has to fix their own issues because they're unrelated to you, it becomes more intuitive to walk away. |
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