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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 17:33:29 GMT
glacier , the only thing that reaaaally concerned me was him using the internet to find out where you work and send you things, etc.. That's such an overstep!!! Sure, I may google people too when I don't really know them yet, but I neither tell them nor use the info to manipulate them or to stalk. Not that he's doing that, but usually I'm just checking for safety reasons and also curious to learn more about them without seeming totally overeager. I'm not checking to send gifts or track someone down before I know someone. I'm less concerned about him attempting to offer you insight when you are both actively participating in long, deep conversations. If he's telling you "what's wrong" in a, I want to fix you no matter what you want way, that's a red flag. If he just was offering oh, have you thought of this thing you're struggling with this way? And you say thanks for your opinion but I'm dealing with it on my own. And he doesn't bring it up again and you don't feel pressured to change, I think that's fine. I totally disagree with second paragraph here. The "insight" wasn't offered in isolation, it occurred with another major red flag and moving too quickly in general, all of which indicates and agenda rather than open discovery. I believe if you're having deep conversations about your wounds this early on it's really iffy. If he'd like to apply insight I think it should be to himself and finding out why he is in such a rush, and why he has to push back on what she says is going on with her. Sounds like instant familiarity and intimacy attempts to me. Premature and out of bounds.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 17:34:36 GMT
A secure would be able to calmly reassure an AP they're in a relationship with that they aren't going anywhere but not walk on eggshells when the AP has a triggered tantrum or try to fix it for them. They'd hold their own boundaries, not take outbursts personally, but also hold the AP accountable for unacceptable behavior. Talk it through calmly after they calm down, try to do conflict resolution, and state their boundaries and what they want. If the AP doesn't step up, then they may consider if a breakup is necessary due to incompatibility. I have a secure friend who had to leave an AP after talking to him about attachment theory and his eventual refusal to actually address it or go to therapy, though he'd made a couple other improvements. It was constant stress for them both because he's not ready, so she gave him several chances to follow through on healing and then left. They aren't in a relationship. What? Why reassure anybody about anything except the fact that they aren't in a relationship?
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Post by glacier on Jun 11, 2019 17:42:53 GMT
Thank you for your input alexandra. It is as you described, great conversations, seems like a very decent guy, very understanding but lots of AP behavior. My DA instinct is to nib it in the bud, which is why I am wondering what a secure might do. So far he is very open to my suggestions about my need to set the pace. He is fine with that, even though he still texts often. When I ask for alone time, though, he does back off without protest behavior. He would prefer to talk to me everyday. I will hate to hurt him though, if I start to feel suffocated and end it. That would be my DA defense I guess?
I'm new to this and I want to learn to be secure, but it is quite confusing for me. I cannot tell if he is really too toxic to continue engagement with, or if it is my DA side backing off from an AP who has the potential to turn secure. He is definitely AP. I wonder too if he is so easy to talk to because he is mirroring me, or if we are truly similar? This seems like DA suspicions, finding reasons to avoid a potential partner.
Yes, it is confusing because I am trying to get out of my comfort zone.
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Post by glacier on Jun 11, 2019 18:09:06 GMT
They aren't in a relationship. What? Why reassure anybody about anything except the fact that they aren't in a relationship?
This is the hesitant start, and I am certain he is AP. It is a great leap for me to start anything with an AP due to my DA side. As a thought experiment, I do wonder how a secure might react to an AP who seems to possess great qualities. Starting this thread shows my hesitance and thoughts about ending this interaction, which makes me wonder if I am acting out of my DA defenses to avoid hurting each other. If it does not happen then neither of us gets hurt, right? I am trying to avoid the possible "burden" of hurting him should I decide to end it. In a way, it is also to understand myself, to see if I can think or act more like a secure. I have repeatedly insisted that we are just friends, it is early, I need much more time, possibly 3-4 months to decide, etc. He seems to accept my terms.
A bit more about him, let's call him J. He grew up poor, suffering greatly from an abusive alcoholic father who beat his mother and the children. He gave up art to work in a giant telecommunications company. He is now handling environmental improvements and managing their properties for the region. However, he isn't rich or paid very well. He read all the books I read, likes the films I like, avoids the mass junk media I avoid. His previous girlfriend is histrionic and toxic. He described petty fights and abusive behavior from her.
Other than the AP behaviors, he is alright.
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Post by alexandra on Jun 11, 2019 18:14:35 GMT
A secure would be able to calmly reassure an AP they're in a relationship with that they aren't going anywhere but not walk on eggshells when the AP has a triggered tantrum or try to fix it for them. They'd hold their own boundaries, not take outbursts personally, but also hold the AP accountable for unacceptable behavior. Talk it through calmly after they calm down, try to do conflict resolution, and state their boundaries and what they want. If the AP doesn't step up, then they may consider if a breakup is necessary due to incompatibility. I have a secure friend who had to leave an AP after talking to him about attachment theory and his eventual refusal to actually address it or go to therapy, though he'd made a couple other improvements. It was constant stress for them both because he's not ready, so she gave him several chances to follow through on healing and then left. They aren't in a relationship. What? Why reassure anybody about anything except the fact that they aren't in a relationship? Correct, they aren't. She was just theoretically asking how a secure would handle an AP. If a secure chose to pursue a relationship and was okay with handling the patterns, this is how it could go.
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Post by alexandra on Jun 11, 2019 18:18:44 GMT
I think what I'm saying is being misunderstood. I'm not saying to pursue this or excuse anything he's doing. I'm saying what is a glaring red flag to me, being very familiar with AP behaviors, versus what is a yellow flag, depending on your own personality and tolerance.
I think that if you're both actively healing, aware of attachment styles, going to therapy, you may be able to grow together in the course of a relationship. If you're not both at the same general point in your process, it will probably end up hitting a painful and cyclical wall sooner than later. Give this a chance if you feel strongly, but I think based on what you've described, walking away and continuing to work on yourself while finding someone already more secure than this guy might be a prudent and better match for you.
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Post by anne12 on Jun 11, 2019 18:45:32 GMT
"...suffering greatly from an abusive alcoholic father who beat his mother and the children.' " His previous girlfriend is histrionic and toxic."
He could have some desorganised attatchmentstyle with That kind of background.
People often have a mix.
"He really got his head twisted around this one - he asked me if it is because I don't want to try it out with him?" Maybe he is confused and needs to Get things clear by Asking You That quistion ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 19:09:27 GMT
That's what I thought too , increasing the intensity perhaps.
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Post by epicgum on Jun 12, 2019 5:33:14 GMT
"...suffering greatly from an abusive alcoholic father who beat his mother and the children.' " His previous girlfriend is histrionic and toxic." He could have some desorganised attatchmentstyle with That kind of background. People often have a mix. "He really got his head twisted around this one - he asked me if it is because I don't want to try it out with him?" Maybe he is confused and needs to Get things clear by Asking You That quistion ? I agree with this, especially if he had a borderline girlfriend in the past. I hardly think he's done anything wrong though. Probably FA, which has it's own particular challenges, but then again, so do you. Just my .02 ymmv.
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Post by glacier on Jun 12, 2019 12:32:24 GMT
Thank you all for offering such a great mix of opinions from different background experiences. Yes, he is confused and I assured him that it isn't a veiled attempt to push him away. I was frank in my reply that I cannot promise anything at all, until I can confirm if we can really start a relationship. I prefer that the other person doesn't start liking me until I start liking them at a level that is more than casual friendship. It is simply too fast too soon and like many of you, I'm worried it is a type of love-bombing and projection. You are right and fair too, in pointing out that nothing he did has been "wrong", though he texts and communicates a lot, all day, too much for my style. Once a day is max for me. So I'm wondering if it is my DA side feeling engulfed. I am indeed trying to become more of a secure, and I hope he does too. He is seeing a therapist and he says he is keen to improve himself. My biggest fear is getting into a toxic relationship, with someone unhealthy. He has issues of his own but so far, no clear deal-breakers. I would prefer a secure, but they are simply not crossing my path. Most of the men I have met so far are not right in other ways, not only in attachment styles. I think he is the only AP I have come across and he ticks many of my boxes.
I hope to continue to post here the progression as a record of DA-AP trying to turn secure in a relationship. I will post details and I would appreciate very much your views as to whether the interactions are normal or unhealthy, and if it is my DA issues surfacing.
We both like art and he has been sending me many photos of his art he did when he was younger. To be honest they are not bad, but he isn't the next Picasso. Perhaps with age and wisdom he will do better? He has wisely chosen a more mundane but steady work. I do encourage him to continue to express himself with art as a hobby.
He also told me honestly he has made a blind date this Saturday and showed me her LinkedIn profile, in order not to hide anything from me. I appreciate his honesty, and he has every right to date as we are both only starting to know each other and from a distance. Generally, I will say that as we are not yet an item, both of us should be free to date others, and we do not even need to inform the other. He seems to think he needs to be "honest" with me.
Are these two red flags behavior?
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Post by 8675309 on Jun 12, 2019 13:02:36 GMT
Run!!!
This is so much 'work' already and you have not even met yet!
Even being avoidant its just not always going to be about that, you will come across legit red flags.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 13:05:01 GMT
I agree it's not about right or wrong it's about healthy or unhealthy. It's obvious we all are here posting because we have our own issues, I don't think it's way out of bounds to recognize toxic or unhealthy dynamics between ourselves and potential partners and avoid engaging in what we see as well documented TRAPS.
The anxious avoidant dynamic is called a TRAP for a reason- it brings out the absolute worst coping mechanisms in both people. If this guy is AP or FA it's not a sin. It's his problem. You have your own. You will have to decide if you want to take his on, because being involved with him you WILL take them on. If you're looking for healthy, then great. All the work in the world you do on yourself won't change his issues or improve them. That's his work to do.
I think that starting a new relationship with someone who is quite obviously insecure and running according to their own dysfunctional script is an exercise in madness but people do it all the time. Starting a relationship needing to be in therapy for the issues from day one is a little intense- working through attachment issues with a newfound insecure partner sounds wonderful - OR DOES IT?
Not to say you can't make progress by walking through this and being aware and making choices along the way. You can. You will. You already are. Do whatever feels right and reasonable to you. You will learn as you go what works and what doesn't. You will face consequences , good or bad, for every decision you make and will survive them all.
As for the behavior you are listing today. This is redundant. You've already stated to him that dating others is appropriate. He has an overblown sense of your "relationship" still, IMHO, if he thinks he needs to be honest along with pics and details about dating others.
More likely, he's trying to push for some emotional reaction and influence you to second guess your lack of commitment to this. "You sure you are ok if I date others? Because I will, you know. You're overly important to me and I am somewhat obsessed with you and wanting this to work between us, but if you keep saying that you are fine with me dating others by God I will send you pictures to make sure you mean it. You do? You mean it? Ok well I will turn this overly clingy thing I have with you right on it's head TODAY and I feel the need to be super honest with you because I'm a great guy, I need to do this in the clear light of day because you already said you're fine with it and frankly, that doesn't set well with me. Are you sure?"
Haha I don't know what he's really thinking but it's a little OTT. Have fun with this, it seems like a constant source of WTF. That's how it is with two insecures getting into that thang.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 13:05:23 GMT
Run!!! This is so much 'work' already and you have not even met yet! Even being avoidant its just not always going to be about that, you will come across legit red flags. Amen sister!! Over the Top.
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Post by 8675309 on Jun 12, 2019 13:09:12 GMT
@sherry For sure, this is not a secure attached man and has things to workout within. Red flag galore! I would have cut out already!
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Post by anne12 on Jun 12, 2019 13:13:42 GMT
Why are You texting, skyping ect. so much with a Guy That You havent even met irl yet ? IT is recommended to Write to eachother (on dating app) about two times Forth and back, maybe a phone call and then arrange a Meeting irl That lasts max 1-2 hours. IT is recommended not to have All This contact before You meet the person irl (if You want to meet the person at All)
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