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Post by toorational on Jun 14, 2019 14:02:34 GMT
A bit of an update... Gosh it's hard to deal with the sometimes wildly varying level of affection from my girlfriend. In her best times, she will say ILY several times a day, we have sex about 4 times a week, she often sends me loving texts, etc. About a month ago, she had a long stretch of about 6 weeks of such behavior. It was absolutely blissful.
Fast forward to the past few weeks. We had sex once in the last 6 days, after me insisting quite a bit, actually asking for a handjob because my libido was through the roof and I felt that she wasn't receptive to my advances (she got aroused in the end and we had sex). She has not said ILY for about the last 3 days now. Even after I say it, she doesn't say it back. It's weird to me and shoots my anxiety up but I'm better than I used to about it. We had a long stretch of her just feeling off last summer, very low levels of affection, than lasted a good 2-3 months. It turns out that is was her thyroid medication which was not dosed correctly. Maybe it's a seasonal change or something and she's still loving in other ways (for example, she slept over at my place last night after toying with the idea of going back to her place after diner because she was tired) so I try not to take it personal, but it's still hard on me.
I'm not even sure that she realizes her behavior change. I'm sure that deep down she still loves me but somehow the affection level is way down. From experience, these moments tend to pass and she might roar back with wild passion one day but this rollercoaster is hard for an AP trying to become secure.
Any tips on how to handle that is appreciated. I'll probably bring up the ILY thing next time she doesn't say it back. I'll try to do it with tact though. I won't say something like "Do you still love me, because since you've stopped saying it I doubt it". Rather, I'll say something like "I know you love me deeply but words are important to me and I'd like to hear you say ILY". Would that work?
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Post by anne12 on Jun 14, 2019 14:15:46 GMT
Why does she have to say I love You All the time ? Can You think of any other way That she shows You That she likes You. Maybe You have different love languages? Also the ambivalent can have a problem accepting and taking in the love That a partner tries to show Them. Look in the general forum "healing ambivalent attatchment" thread a read how You can practise getting Better at recieving. "She has not said ILY for about the last 3 days now. Even after I say it, she doesn't say it back." Can You tell her That You love her and not expecting her to say IT back ? jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1072/healing-ambivalent-attatchment-tips-tricks
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Post by anne12 on Jun 14, 2019 16:12:04 GMT
Also the words Should/shouldent and xxx: Saying to yourself that you should or shouldent or You are saying That the other person should or shouldent say or do xxxx is not good. It drains your own or the other persons life energy and IT is relates to shaming yourself and the other person. Shame is a collapse in the Body bending forward. Instead, say: Okay, I choose to xxxx instead.
Okay, my partner dosent say I love You. Instead of Thinking That your partner should Be able to say This, You can choose to think about how your partner shows You love in other ways.
If the other person is Kate You can choose to let IT pass and choose to say in the future i would REALLY apriciate if You call me if You are Kate ect.
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Post by toorational on Jun 14, 2019 16:54:59 GMT
Thanks anne12 and for the thread you liked to. I'll read that. Yes we do have different love languages. My primary one is Words of affection but not for her (we took the test). She doesn't have to say it all the time but since it's my primary love language, I kinda need to hear it once in a while and when she stops saying it for no apparent reason, it makes me worried.
I don't necessarily expect ILY back when I say it. I'm fine with her not saying it back as long as she does say it once every couple days at least. I have noticed that when she says it less often, she will at least say it back when prompted (when I say ILY myself). When she stops saying it back, it usually means that she has already stopped saying it altogether at other times too. This is also highly correlated with the decrease of physical affection.
I do realize that not everyone has the need to hear ILY on a regular basis. In fact, some people are even put off by hearing it too often. For some people words are meaningless and actions are much more important. I think that the love languages concept addresses theses differences.
For me anyway, words and physical affection are very important. When both decrease significantly, I feel more like mates than lovers.
I'm reconsidering the whole thing and perhaps I should just give her space and just suck it up. That's the constant dilemma I'm in. Either speak up about my needs and perhaps getting it fulfilled, but risking damaging the relationship in the process. Or, just try to sooth myself and give my partner space and just hope that things resolve by itself
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 17:46:24 GMT
Would you be ok if she told you that she does not want to say "I love you" as much as you would like? Isn't your insecurity what makes you question her love if she goes a few days without saying what you want her to say? It's your language, not hers. You don't seem to be able to rely on her way of showing you her love. Is that something she needs to correct? Or should you perhaps own your own insecurity and work harder to address that instead of addressing her?
This is a well researched and universally observed issue in the anxious: avoidant dynamic. You may try accepting her as she is. If she isn't cutting it for you, you have options other than feeling unsatisfied and insecure. Do you know what those options are? A therapist might be able to help you find them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 17:47:45 GMT
And I don't know what's going on in her head with lack of desire. Could be a number of things. But I naturally have a lack of desire for someone who is so insecure they are questioning my love if I don't do it their way. It's the biggest of turn offs.
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Post by toorational on Jun 14, 2019 18:05:37 GMT
Would you be ok if she told you that she does not want to say "I love you" as much as you would like? Very good question and worth pondering. That's basically saying "I recognize your needs, but I'm unwilling to change to fulfill them". Shouldn't we strive to fulfill our partners needs? For example, let's say that my partner loves massages but I'm not very good at them or not inclined to give them naturally. Shouldn't I try to learn and make an effort to give some once in a while? Or would it be perfectly ok to say "I don't like giving massages and unwilling to make an effort, just don't except any from me". Which is the healthier response? For my I think that the biggest issue is not necessarily the current frequency of ILY but rather, the huge change from past behavior. That makes me question things and it seems almost impossible that it's not rooted in a true change in feelings. Not necessarily her feelings of love for me but just her current general state of mind. Maybe she's slightly depressed and has nothing to do with me. Maybe she's tired. But also maybe she's truly less attracted to me because of my recent behavior. This uncertainty is what is hard on me. And since she's not very good a communicating her feelings I might be left with this uncertainty for quite a while. Not fun to live in limbo. I can't force someone to love me. So asking her to say ILY is probably not the right course of action. I won't push it further and simply try to give her space. I just hope that her current state of mind is not the beginning of another summer last like year.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 20:46:16 GMT
Would you be ok if she told you that she does not want to say "I love you" as much as you would like? Very good question and worth pondering. That's basically saying "I recognize your needs, but I'm unwilling to change to fulfill them". Shouldn't we strive to fulfill our partners needs? For example, let's say that my partner loves massages but I'm not very good at them or not inclined to give them naturally. Shouldn't I try to learn and make an effort to give some once in a while? Or would it be perfectly ok to say "I don't like giving massages and unwilling to make an effort, just don't except any from me". Which is the healthier response? For my I think that the biggest issue is not necessarily the current frequency of ILY but rather, the huge change from past behavior. That makes me question things and it seems almost impossible that it's not rooted in a true change in feelings. Not necessarily her feelings of love for me but just her current general state of mind. Maybe she's slightly depressed and has nothing to do with me. Maybe she's tired. But also maybe she's truly less attracted to me because of my recent behavior. This uncertainty is what is hard on me. And since she's not very good a communicating her feelings I might be left with this uncertainty for quite a while. Not fun to live in limbo. I can't force someone to love me. So asking her to say ILY is probably not the right course of action. I won't push it further and simply try to give her space. I just hope that her current state of mind is not the beginning of another summer last like year. Speaking of changing for a partner, what are you doing to address your own insecurity besides asking her to change? You have the typical AP mindset of : Partner must change or I must suffer (martyr)." The option to address your own issues and abandonment fears exists, enabling you to be more secure in yourself and be accepting of her limitations without feeling unloved. It sounds like she does a lot to be demonstrative actually. You must also consider that it may be as difficult for her to feel comfortable with you, as it is for you to be comfortable with her. Does she complain about you as much as you complain about her? DA are more likely to remain quiet and avoid. It's the nature of the coping mechanisms. Yes, it takes two and it takes mutual effort. But I feel well supported by the research that explored all this... that the demands of an insecure AP are typically too much and impossible to satisfy. We can talk about her contribution all day but she isn't here trying to change. Absolutely keep asking for your needs to be met if you feel that's the answer. Or you could question your assumptions about what you need to feel more secure. I'm not saying it's easy because anxious/avoidant dynamics are the most toxic out there according to a lot of sources. There is a reason for that and it's not all on the avoidant. Read some threads feom avoidants here who have gone beyond even being able to tolerate the neediness of an AP. It's not easy. For me, getting healthier meant not engaging with it. If you want to change anyone the only person you can change is yourself. That's true for us avoidants also.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 22:57:02 GMT
i've been on the side of toorational. it can be a very hurtful experience. if i'm reading him right, I believe that what he is asking for is consistency in affection, not so much a demand to be told ILY and that the partner needs to be loving on his terms. ILYs are just an example or an important aspect of demonstrated affection for him, and the obvious inconsistency in that expression is what is hurtful because of the stark differences in experiences between episodes. just as suddenly as it was gone, it'll come back on again, and while one is grateful that there is expression of love, one cannot help wonder when it'll go away again. this is where the stress and hurt lies - that one is not enough to receive consistent expressions of love. in my experience, it is not that someone is not saying ILY all the time, it is the sudden change in behavior, and a rollercoaster ride of feeling loved with alot of demonstrations and feeling empty because that demonstration is SUDDENLY gone. note the emphasis on suddenly. if it was a slow decline over a long time, it's probably alot more acceptable. the issue is that there is sudden inconsistency in behavior and rituals of the relationship. if she was never affectionate to begin with, then asking for alot of affection is hard to satisfy and probably unrealistic/unreasonable, but this does not seem to be the case. this up and down feeling of being loved mirrors an AP's trauma - when a caregiver gives love only when it suits her/him rather than being consistent in one's demonstrations of love. regardless of what type of relationship it is (romantic, parental, friendship), sharp inconsistency i.e., sudden changes without warning is super stressful in general but particularly so for APs. I don't think it's fair to simply state that it's because his demands come from being an insecure AP and that it's typically too much, if what he has actually asked for is consistency. The asking for ILY is simply a manifestation and an example of relationship behavior. think of it as any other relationship - would you tolerate big ups and downs in your workplace? if an employer hires a staff member who is stellar for 3 months then flounders for 3 then goes back to being stellar (whatever you define as stellar performance which differs for everyone), it also makes for the employer-employee relationship insecure, even if the employee shows up everyday. if this employee is a star sales person that even on his bad days, he performs fine, that employee often remains employed. but if this employee was already a terrible performer on his off days, the inconsistency in performance is not quite tolerable. note that what you consider a big variance might not be what others consider a big variance, and this is something that you need to consider as what sherry has pointed out. the baseline of relationship health needs to be strong enough to allow for and withstand this variance in what you consider important to you. please note that im not saying toorational is right and the girlfriend is wrong, just that this rollercoaster of emotions is something i can empathize with because logically and objectively it makes no sense, but the hurt is very much visceral (which is often compounded by its seeming triviality). toorational, at the end of the day, if you need/want consistency in specific ways and someone is not able to meet that want/need, then it is on you to decide to walk away. if the relationship on the whole is good in many other ways and you wish to keep this relationship, you'll need to find other ways to address this insecurity - both in terms of finding other expressions of affection as well as in yourself. sherry is also right that you need to address your own issues first without caring too much about this ILY business - when you get more secure for yourself and in yourself, these things become a lot less important and when they still are important to you, you'll be able to address them in a better way. think of the emotions elicited by this ILY situation as a highlight that there are issues to work on - your issues, not hers. this is not to say that the ILY situation is not important - it's just that when you work on your own issues and gain clarity on that, you'll know much more clearly what is truly important to you and then be able to ask for that confidently. I believe that it is imperative to address the issue of consistency and, more importantly, WHAT to be consistent about based on what you both need as consistent elements. if rituals and expressions of affection and commitment are key to you feeling safe and secure in a relationship, that is what it is. consistency to her might be just showing up everyday without the "frills" and that is what she needs from you. IMO, ILYs are just an easy example to grasp on to give life to this feeling of inconsistency, but do not harp on bean counting ILYs. the bigger issue is that there is inconsistency and your insecurity is triggered. then the discussion should be what both of you considers as important to be consistent about and how you can address each others' needs for that consistency in creative ways. sherry is absolutely right that maybe she's just not saying that she finds it a chore to be saying ILYs all the time and can only do that when she is not depleted, so it becomes this pattern of trying to over-address your needs when she can and then when she can't, it's such a stark contrast for you that it makes you feel abandoned. you being upset about not being told ILY when she's tired is then perceived as an entitled behavior that is just difficult to meet because you do not empathize with her situation. clearly this then reaches and impasse that helps nobody. a creative way is just to create your own loving ritual that is unique to your relationship that makes both of you feel appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 23:14:37 GMT
Very good question and worth pondering. That's basically saying "I recognize your needs, but I'm unwilling to change to fulfill them". Shouldn't we strive to fulfill our partners needs? For example, let's say that my partner loves massages but I'm not very good at them or not inclined to give them naturally. Shouldn't I try to learn and make an effort to give some once in a while? Or would it be perfectly ok to say "I don't like giving massages and unwilling to make an effort, just don't except any from me". Which is the healthier response? For my I think that the biggest issue is not necessarily the current frequency of ILY but rather, the huge change from past behavior. That makes me question things and it seems almost impossible that it's not rooted in a true change in feelings. Not necessarily her feelings of love for me but just her current general state of mind. Maybe she's slightly depressed and has nothing to do with me. Maybe she's tired. But also maybe she's truly less attracted to me because of my recent behavior. This uncertainty is what is hard on me. And since she's not very good a communicating her feelings I might be left with this uncertainty for quite a while. Not fun to live in limbo. I can't force someone to love me. So asking her to say ILY is probably not the right course of action. I won't push it further and simply try to give her space. I just hope that her current state of mind is not the beginning of another summer last like year. Speaking of changing for a partner, what are you doing to address your own insecurity besides asking her to change? You have the typical AP mindset of : Partner must change or I must suffer (martyr)." The option to address your own issues and abandonment fears exists, enabling you to be more secure in yourself and be accepting of her limitations without feeling unloved. It sounds like she does a lot to be demonstrative actually. You must also consider that it may be as difficult for her to feel comfortable with you, as it is for you to be comfortable with her. Does she complain about you as much as you complain about her? DA are more likely to remain quiet and avoid. It's the nature of the coping mechanisms. Yes, it takes two and it takes mutual effort. But I feel well supported by the research that explored all this... that the demands of an insecure AP are typically too much and impossible to satisfy. We can talk about her contribution all day but she isn't here trying to change. Absolutely keep asking for your needs to be met if you feel that's the answer. Or you could question your assumptions about what you need to feel more secure. I'm not saying it's easy because anxious/avoidant dynamics are the most toxic out there according to a lot of sources. There is a reason for that and it's not all on the avoidant. Read some threads feom avoidants here who have gone beyond even being able to tolerate the neediness of an AP. It's not easy. For me, getting healthier meant not engaging with it. If you want to change anyone the only person you can change is yourself. That's true for us avoidants also. this is a side note but your response made me think about certain things. I think that for APs, a key part to addressing one's own issues is to know clearly and confidently when to ask for things. alot of the discussions here circle around the theme of "i want these needs to be met but im afraid if i ask for them, it'll cause annoyance and trigger their avoidance". then the response is often - you need to address your fear of abandonment without really saying how an AP can do that. I would imagine that the tools a DA need are very different from what an AP need to address the same fear; I haven't thought that far yet. my take is that for APs, the willingness and ability to address one's abandonment fears come hand in hand with the willingness and ability to ask for needs to be met without stepping on eggshells. I think the willingness to have difficult conversation is very empowering and that often kickstarts, catalyzes and evolves the healing process into another level. the willingness to ask for needs to be met without fear of setting other people off is a sign that one is ready to heal and a tool in the healing process, because you're willing to lose relationships that do not serve you. this loss is still very costly, but it is a cost that becomes bearable because my goal now is to move towards security rather than keeping the peace to keep relationships. for me personally at least, the determination to speak up for myself and ask for consistency, my needs to be met and my boundaries to be respected made me ABLE to face my own issues. because the benefits of protecting myself outweighed the costs of the potential loss of relationships. without arming myself with that tool of speaking up for my needs, i could not have faced nor free myself from fears of abandonment. APs are afraid to speak up because of the fear of abandonment, and hence this constant emotional turmoil on how to ask for their needs to be met and this excessive bean counting exercise to try to sense if that request is even a reasonable one. when one is willing and able to speak up for their needs, the fear of abandonment is no longer a real threat because then one is willing to walk away from unsatisfying relationships without too much sadness.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 23:32:39 GMT
In my opinion there is little use in addressing another insecure's behavior until one is solidly on a path of addressing their own insecurity. That's not a bitter perspective- it's a realistic one and one that is encouraged by ANY therapist. Do people go to therapy to improve their relationships and only talk about the behavior of the absent partner? No. Also; we have one side of the story here. I'm not saying OP is dishonest, not at all. But his perspective is clearly biased by his AP insecurity. I can think of a few contributing factors to inconsistency. And, many can be related to unhealthy behavior in the Aap partner . Yes, it is push pull both ways. Here is an example. anne12 consistently directs unhappy AP posters to helpful information about themselves, and points out that once love is offered, an AMBIVALENT will reject it. That point is glossed over, over and over and over and over because what AP wants to discuss is how they are not shown love. Not enough, not in the right way, not consistently. An avoidant partner, if they were providing their point of view, might say: "My partner always complains to me, about me. He doesn't trust me, he doubts my sincerity all the time. I've tried to show him my love in the way he appreciates but then there is something else. A week ago, he complained again, and said things that were so upsetting to me I found myself crying. I feel overwhelmed. So I try. I have made changes and adjustments but he's never happy. Sometimes when I am with him, I remember all the times I tried and it wasn't good enough. I remember the things he says. the look on his face. the tone of his voice, and how it's always about me not doing enough to make him happy. The last time he walked up to me and said "I love you." with that plaintive look on his face, that expectant hesitation while he waited for me to say it back, I couldn't. I was wondering, do you really? Really? Do you even know who I am or that it doesn't feel good to be myself and also be the cause of your misery. I wish I had a partner who wasn't so needy. I can't always get excited sexually because I feel criticized, unappreciated, and alone with feelings I just can't put my finger on. " Who knows. I've felt that way, as long as we are here empathizing. I totally get both sides but again, I emphasize... the path to security in a relationship is working on yourself and not just trying to change a partner. It sucks for both sides. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's a useless question because anyone with their eyes open knows this is a constant back and forth reaction between two insecures. What secure person is here complaining about their partner? Ap or Avoidant? None. Why? Because they are secure and they aren't reactive to an insecure partner, either because they aren't choosing them or they are accepting and able to find intimacy and enough satisfaction to not be posting on the net wishing a partner would change for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 23:35:45 GMT
In my opinion there is little use in addressing another insecure's behavior until one is solidly on a path of addressing their own insecurity. That's not a bitter perspective- it's a realistic one and one that is encouraged by ANY therapist. Do people go to therapy to improve their relationships and only talk about the behavior of the absent partner? No. Also; we have one side of the story here. I'm not saying OP is dishonest, not at all. But his perspective is clearly biased by his AP insecurity. I can think of a few contributing factors to inconsistency. And, many can be related to unhealthy behavior in the Aap partner . Yes, it is push pull both ways. Here is an example. anne12 consistently directs unhappy AP posters to helpful information about themselves, and points out that once love is offered, an AMBIVALENT will reject it. That point is glossed over, over and over and over and over because what AP wants to discuss is how they are not shown love. Not enough, not in the right way, not consistently. An avoidant partner, if they were providing their point of view, might say: "My partner always complains to me, about me. He doesn't trust me, he doubts my sincerity all the time. I've tried to show him my love in the way he appreciates but then there is something else. A week ago, he complained again, and said things that were so upsetting to me I found myself crying. I feel overwhelmed. So I try. I have made changes and adjustments but he's never happy. Sometimes when I am with him, I remember all the times I tried and it wasn't good enough. I remember the things he says. the look on his face. the tone of his voice, and how it's always about me not doing enough to make him happy. The last time he walked up to me and said "I love you." with that plaintive look on his face, that expectant hesitation while he waited for me to say it back, I couldn't. I was wondering, do you really? Really? Do you even know who I am or that it doesn't feel good to be myself and also be the cause of your misery? ] I wish I had a partner who wasn't so needy. I can't always get excited sexually because I feel criticized, unappreciated, and alone with feelings I just can't put my finger on. " Who knows. I've felt that way, as long as we are here empathizing. I totally get both sides but again, I emphasize... the path to security in a relationship is working on yourself and not just trying to change a partner. It sucks for both sides. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's a useless question because anyone with their eyes open knows this is a constant back and forth reaction between two insecures. What secure person is here complaining about their partner? Ap or Avoidant? None. Why? Because they are secure and they aren't reactive to an insecure partner, either because they aren't choosing them or they are accepting and able to find intimacy and enough satisfaction to not be posting on the net wishing a partner would change for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 0:24:43 GMT
In my opinion there is little use in addressing another insecure's behavior until one is solidly on a path of addressing their own insecurity. That's not a bitter perspective- it's a realistic one and one that is encouraged by ANY therapist. Do people go to therapy to improve their relationships and only talk about the behavior of the absent partner? No. Also; we have one side of the story here. I'm not saying OP is dishonest, not at all. But his perspective is clearly biased by his AP insecurity. I can think of a few contributing factors to inconsistency. And, many can be related to unhealthy behavior in the Aap partner . Yes, it is push pull both ways. Here is an example. anne12 consistently directs unhappy AP posters to helpful information about themselves, and points out that once love is offered, an AMBIVALENT will reject it. That point is glossed over, over and over and over and over because what AP wants to discuss is how they are not shown love. Not enough, not in the right way, not consistently. An avoidant partner, if they were providing their point of view, might say: "My partner always complains to me, about me. He doesn't trust me, he doubts my sincerity all the time. I've tried to show him my love in the way he appreciates but then there is something else. A week ago, he complained again, and said things that were so upsetting to me I found myself crying. I feel overwhelmed. So I try. I have made changes and adjustments but he's never happy. Sometimes when I am with him, I remember all the times I tried and it wasn't good enough. I remember the things he says. the look on his face. the tone of his voice, and how it's always about me not doing enough to make him happy. The last time he walked up to me and said "I love you." with that plaintive look on his face, that expectant hesitation while he waited for me to say it back, I couldn't. I was wondering, do you really? Really? Do you even know who I am or that it doesn't feel good to be myself and also be the cause of your misery. I wish I had a partner who wasn't so needy. I can't always get excited sexually because I feel criticized, unappreciated, and alone with feelings I just can't put my finger on. " Who knows. I've felt that way, as long as we are here empathizing. I totally get both sides but again, I emphasize... the path to security in a relationship is working on yourself and not just trying to change a partner. It sucks for both sides. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's a useless question because anyone with their eyes open knows this is a constant back and forth reaction between two insecures. What secure person is here complaining about their partner? Ap or Avoidant? None. Why? Because they are secure and they aren't reactive to an insecure partner, either because they aren't choosing them or they are accepting and able to find intimacy and enough satisfaction to not be posting on the net wishing a partner would change for them. i absolutely agree that that one needs to work on the self and not change the partner in order to have a secure relationship. 100%. and that is the goal we should be focused on. this is not something an AP understands off the bat, unfortunately, until they've reached a particular point - and what i think this point is is when one is willing and able to speak up for one's needs without being consumed by the fear. when one has reached this point, it is a start to working towards being secure for an AP. this, of course, is my own experience and perspective. I fully understand what you're saying that an insecure dynamic is toxic, and we should all work towards security ourselves. I don't think this is a contended point at all, and that is not what i'm arguing against. if anything, I agree, and this doesn't discount that empathy might be healing and supportive of someone's journey. now if toorational obsesses continuously, my empathy is also limited. however, i think there is something to be said in expressing the inner workings (at least of mine) that could be enlightening or spark insight in someone else because it puts into words this feeling that cannot be quite explained. This is for the benefit of APs, and to anyone else if this is something they're curious about. it's not an argument against "work towards security yourself and all will be solved" - this is absolutely the root solution. perhaps this explanation of the process is not important for some, especially those who are further along the recovery process and see its futility now that one is past it, but the emotional and cognitive understanding and explanation of the emotional turmoil i've read on this board when i was a triggered AP were really crucial in helping me unpack my thoughts and feelings. now that i am not triggered, i also find that analyzing the relationship etc etc is futile and the goal is always just to work towards one's own security. but in observing this difference in my openness to and understanding of the message and root solution, i've also came to insights for myself. telling me to just fix myself was really not very helpful at all - if anything, it made me feel worse for not being secure or not knowing how to be secure, and that my concerns are trivial and not worth being heard - because all i need to do is work on myself and fix myself. it reinforces the narrative that I am The Problem and I am Not Enough, not so that I am Enough but I have issues that need fixing to make my life better. it compounds self-referential shame which creates a downward spiral. in any case, i agree with you that the solution is just to work on yourself first. and for me, working on yourself as an AP means establishing a willingness and ability to express needs calmly without expectation (which you've described very well in your example), because that allows the confidence to navigate difficult conversations without being consumed by fear. and this skill of asking for needs to be met is one that APs do NOT have, and therefore, act out in the way you've described. perhaps that is different for you or for DAs or for any other APs, but it was deeply true for me. i also realize this goes beyond the discussion of consistency - which you're absolutely right that the AP is very well contributing to. whatever the factors are in this problem, i think my bigger point is that they're not important. but for an AP to focus on being secure, it means developing a willingness and ability to express your needs calmly without it being driven by fear. i can assure you that I read every thing I could get my hands on in terms of resources towards being secure, but I couldn't understand or feel what being secure means and what working towards that feels like. my work toward security felt pretentious (like I was going through the motions but I actually have no clue what and why I'm doing them) without being rooted in a self-assurance of knowing that I have needs and that i can seek relationships that meet those needs without shame. and when one reaches this point, the focus will never be on asking the partner to change for them.
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Post by toorational on Jun 15, 2019 1:07:47 GMT
Wow this thread has been invaluable. Thank you so much for these recents answers. It's extremely useful to have people that can really understand both sides here. You guys provided so much information, I don't know where to start. - sherry, your attempt at trying to see my gf point of view is probably quite accurate and is _very_ helpful. I know that my behavior is a big turn-off for her and probably the cause for her withdrawal. At the same time, I find that some of my requests are not necessarily unreasonnable and a secure partner would help me on the path to become secure. But as you both say, I can't expect her to change and must myself strive to become secure. If I do succeed in becoming secure, then I will reduce the behaviors that trigger her in the first place.
To answer some of the questions, no she doesn't criticize me. Ever. She instead withdraws when I act in an upsetting way for her. As for the question about what I'm doing to improve my own AP tendencies, I read 2 books on attachment so far and am currently reading a 3rd. I'm also reading a lot online and seeking advice on forums such as this one (though this is the best one). I took a dating hiatus after a 6 mo failed relationship with an "extreme" DA 3 years ago and took that time to work on myself and do lots of introspection. I was transparent from the very beginning with my current gf with my AP tendencies. I think I improved quite a bit in the last 2-3 years but I obviously have some ways to go. I had also started meditation at some point but gave up. I should start again.
shiningstar, thanks for your validation and empathy about my need for some consistency. You understood very well what I was trying to say. I also understand that if I was secure, then I wouldn't fear to bring this up with her and asking for my needs to be met. But then again, if I was secure I probably would never have displayed protest behaviors and I wouldn't have caused inconsistencies in my girlfriend in the first place. Yes, at this point my fear of abandonment is too great to freely speak up about the things that bother me. I don't want to lose this relationship because of my insecurities. I would much prefer to suck it up for now and work towards becoming secure. I would of course prefer if we could do this journey together but I don't feel that we can because she gets triggered whenever we speak about that subject.
You said that you read everything you could get your hands on about becoming secure but that didn't seem to help. What did help in the end? Was it simply, as you say, the realization that you have needs and are justified in them and just simply having the confidence to speak up about them? Did you end up ending a relationship with a DA to get into a relationship with a secure who could meet your needs?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 1:30:35 GMT
toorational I'm glad 1) that you are aware and working and 2) that you found my input helpful. Here is something to be aware of also. Dismissive avoidant's signal cry turned off in infancy/childhood because their needs were consistently not met. Let's talk about needs. Rather than say anything to give it away, I would ask that you read the thread that anne12 posted in the general section about healing DA attachment. Here's a hint or two the problem of acknowledging and asking for what is needed is not unique to AP. The inability of a partner to anticipate or meet needs is not unique to AP. The emotional unavailability, neglect and/or engulfment of an AP partner is right in line with the emotional neglect (and sometimes attack and abuse) that a DA endured from their original caregivers. Do read that thread if you wish to understand your partner better, and why she is quiet and withdraws from you.
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