Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 3:13:07 GMT
I've got some real confusion about the avoidant types, I struggle to make sense of some things I'm learning about here. I realize that we all have elements of all the insecure styles in us, to some degree. I see more similarly between AP and FA than I do between FA and DA, but I could be so wrong and just not get it. For example, an FA poster , I think blacksnow2, described an analyzing behavior in a thread. I read it and thought for sure it must be unique to the poster. Then AP and FA both chimed in and could really identify. So I was way off base, not being able to identify, and not realizing that anyone else would be able to. I am trying to understand in what ways I am similar to FA, what FA traits are in me? I have read anne12 's posts describing the different styles and can pick out maybe one or two things, and I would attribute that to trauma I have experienced. I can even identify with a couple of anxious thoughts/traits but it's so minor and easily overcome by stronger avoidant-or secure-type thoughts. So, I wanted to get some input on some specific questions to see, am I same or different from FA in these things. I see it as just a way to explore and understand it more, maybe a dialog will help me grow in a way I don't see I need to yet, maybe help me identify something. Here are some questions that may seem silly but really do confuse me. I will have to word them as generalizations but understand that individual variances are natural. Why do FA leave a relationship? I have never been left, I have always been the leaver, and it's always been due to feeling unhappy with the treatment I'm receiving in the relationship, knowing that I am more peaceful alone even if I get lonely. I cannot abide lots of anger or instability. I've had a difficult time understanding and being able to meet the needs of partners who seemed unquenchable and incapable of happiness, to me. I haven't seen this as personal inadequacy as much as fundamental incompatibility and being a square peg in a round hole, cut from a different cloth, or however you want to say it. Somehow just not like the others, but ok with that ultimately. Does this resonate with FA here? I think mostly FA post. Do you have different motivations for ending a relationship? Is there a pattern in FA of why they leave? Also, do you feel anxious when a relationship with an attachment figure feels threatened somehow? Do you exhibit anxious behaviors, feel actual anxiety like AP describe? I do not. My automatic reaction is a recognition of a threat and right into deactivation. I may experience some kind of anxiety but I guess I suppress it and return to a status quo where I'm alone and alone is good. Not necessarily happy but good and safe and stable and doable. I need stability and predictability and consistency so much that I feel I simply cannot continue past a certain point of those are threatened. Of course I need "space" and that's imperative too. My attachment dies if not supported by those things. And when my attachment does, any anxiety ends, and I'm feeling relieved and in control of my well being again. I'll start anew on another path. Is this what FA experience generally? I'm not sure if these are easy questions to answer. I don't know if I know any predominantly FA people IRL. Maybe I do but I'm just blind as a dismissive, I have no idea. I can't figure other people out that well, I seem to get it wrong quite a bit.
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Jun 10, 2019 5:25:12 GMT
Hi @sherry Great questions and interesting discussion. I am FA and can relate to quite a lot of what I see both APs and DAs posting.
Why do FA leave a relationship? I don't think I am a stereotypical FA so take this with a grain of salt but I'll tell you why I have personally ended relationships. The reasons are mixed, which maybe isn't surprising for an FA. A couple boyfriends I left when I was young were abusive, so yes, feeling unhappy with the treatment I was receiving in the relationship and not wanting to put up with anger and instability (although I did for far too long). A long-term relationship that was relatively healthy that I ended I think was mainly because I didn't like who I'd become, I didn't like feeling dependent, I wanted to take care of myself and work on myself, and the way I'd felt about my partner had changed, and I felt I was hurting him. There's much more to it than that but I'm trying not to write a novel. Two short ones I ended were because I wasn't that into them and saw some compatibility issues, they clearly wanted something more and I and didn't see the point in continuing when I could find someone more suitable or be ok alone. A couple short ones I ended were because I was basically worried they would abandon me and figured I'd rather it be now than a year from now, so I instigated discussions about what we were looking for etc. I wouldn't have ended things if they had responded with reassurance, but they basically said I was right and that they would never want something serious with me. And a medium-length one I ended was because I was repeatedly cheated on. If he had stopped cheating on me and wanted to commit properly I would've taken him back.
In my current relationship when I've almost broken up with him it's been mainly due to things like fear of being controlled and not wanting to put up with anger or instability, feeling like I'm sacrificing too much, and also worrying if there might be compatibility issues. I do start romanticizing being single and think maybe I am better off and happier alone forever. But the reality is that when I'm single, I'm not satisfied and I do want a relationship.
I think FAs have a reputation for getting freaked out and dumping someone simply because they are getting "too close" or we like them "too much" and that's not how it feels to me. I have had weird sinking feelings when my bf first said he loved me or I first met his friends or he first talked about how he wants to live together someday, etc, but those don't make me want to break up. Perhaps they would if I was less self-aware and less sure of my feelings for him though.
I'm not always the dumper, but I've been the dumper more often than the dumpee. When I've been dumped (usually suddenly) it has felt like death and turned me AP. Well, the last time I was dumped wasn't THAT bad actually, but I saw it coming as he and I had discussed attachment theory etc, plus I'm more secure than I used to be.
Do you feel anxious when a relationship with an attachment figure feels threatened somehow? Do you exhibit anxious behaviors, feel actual anxiety like AP describe? Yes I often do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 6:01:10 GMT
Thanks for that reply happyidiot ! Ok, so I can relate to your leavings. I've left abusive partners, a drug addict, an alcoholic... the hardest leave I ever did was another avoidant because we were sympatico I guess. Early on he flipped me anxious and it was the most hellish few days for me, somehow I just refused it. I stayed in the relationship as the more needy partner but I was dismissive needy I guess... I didn't chase or act out for attention I just stayed dissatisfied at a distance. I've been actually anxious a couple times and just stopped it or left the relationship because it's just too destabilizing. It's even hard to remember exactly what that felt like but I remember thinking "WHAT THE F*CK is wrong with me this isn't ok!!" Is it more tolerable for you to stay when triggered anxious? Maybe the anxiety you feel is different in that you stay for yours and become immobilized rather than just leaving to end it? Do AP leave to end anxiety or do they end up staying until a partner leaves? Does anxiety prohibit leaving? Man I could never stay in something more than a few days with that feeling. How often do you feel that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 6:09:22 GMT
And also, I wouldn't say I don't want a relationship when I'm single, especially these days being more emotionally available. But, what I'm willing to do to make that happen is severely limited. I might go on a single date and call that all I can do for now, or fall into something casual and unfulfilling but it'll do.... Until I stop that too. I do turn to nature and spirituality a LOT, it's the home I return to over and over again. I saw that in the healing DA thread and it's so true. I've thought of joining a spiritual order when I'm older, although that's more of a commitment to another entity than I'd like too so I'll probably just do my hermit thing if nothing else pans out. Ha.
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Jun 10, 2019 7:04:17 GMT
Thanks for that reply happyidiot ! Ok, so I can relate to your leavings. I've left abusive partners, a drug addict, an alcoholic... the hardest leave I ever did was another avoidant because we were sympatico I guess. Early on he flipped me anxious and it was the most hellish few days for me, somehow I just refused it. I stayed in the relationship as the more needy partner but I was dismissive needy I guess... I didn't chase or act out for attention I just stayed dissatisfied at a distance. I've been actually anxious a couple times and just stopped it or left the relationship because it's just too destabilizing. It's even hard to remember exactly what that felt like but I remember thinking "WHAT THE F*CK is wrong with me this isn't ok!!" Is it more tolerable for you to stay when triggered anxious? Maybe the anxiety you feel is different in that you stay for yours and become immobilized rather than just leaving to end it? Do AP leave to end anxiety or do they end up staying until a partner leaves? Does anxiety prohibit leaving? Man I could never stay in something more than a few days with that feeling. How often do you feel that? The times I've been triggered AP-like the most while dating have been when I could feel the other person pulling away and things were in many cases unclear as to where we stood (maybe we weren't committed or labelling our relationship etc). The thought process was that if only I could get them to quit doing that and not abandon me then my anxiety would be relieved. If I threatened to end things, deep down it was really in protest, in the hopes that things would improve. The one who was cheating on me for example, I felt anxious with him and I broke up with him multiple times before it stuck. He eventually stopped trying very hard to get me to take him back, and I eventually decided my anxiety surely would at least improve if I broke up with him for good. But the times I've been sent into the most AP state have been when I've been suddenly ghosted, broken up with out of nowhere or essentially broken up with. My one sister who is mostly DA with maybe a bit of FA got triggered a bit anxious in a relationship but like you, didn't show it to him, and got very suddenly broken up with–by a DA–and she was upset but got over it very fast. She said it was like this protective power she has inside her just flipped a switch and turned off her feelings. Me, not so much! In the past I've felt/acted somewhat like prominent AP posters on this board after the demise of certain relationships, creeping the person's social media and praying they would return and profess their love for me. This could go on for a long time if they were giving me breadcrumbs. If, however, I ended a relationship then I can get over it fast, with the exception of that cheating guy, who I didn't truly want to break up with. I experience 2 different types of relationship anxiety, one is more of an avoidant feeling (but still very stressful and upsetting) and one is a clingy AP feeling, so above I was referring to the clingy AP feeling. Can you remember how you felt and what you were thinking when you felt anxious in a relationship? Do AP leave to end anxiety or do they end up staying until a partner leaves? Does anxiety prohibit leaving? I think they sometimes leave because they don't feel like they are getting their needs met. They may impulsively snap and break up with someone in protest, and when that person just lets them instead of vowing to change, it can stick. They might break up to decrease their anxiety because they are convinced their partner will eventually abandon them. APs aren't always incapable of leaving while anxious. But obviously they are much less likely to leave than DAs.
|
|
mamut
Full Member
Posts: 212
|
Post by mamut on Jun 10, 2019 7:37:08 GMT
When it comes to break UPS in the past, I can say now that I most likely was secure and or avoidant. I always left the relationships not due to my anxiety, but it was just over for me. One was cheating, the other was way too anxious, another was a dead end relationship due to a big age Gap. In my very first relationship, I got dumped but didn't mind. My friends were always amazed on how fast I got over them. I got extremely AP with the sociopath, but who wouldn't? Even after him, I was the one breaking my next relationship. I've only been dumped 3 times.
I never was triggered when I was breaking up. I don't like making decisions while triggered as I don't trust my judgement. So maybe anxiety did hold me back, but to be honest I wasn't that anxious in my early relationships, sure I had some episodes, but nothing more. I think I was mostly damaged by the sociopath. It also turned into a sign that something isn't right in a relationship. So I'd say that for me, being anxious did both, hold me back and helped me decide whether or not a relationship is good for me. To be honest, it probably holds me back more lately. With my recent ex, I was ready to break up with him because he did trigger me, I was just waiting for me to calm down and have a talk while not triggered.
I don't know if this is helpful, I'm just writing down the facts. I too was confused with blacksnow's post as I could relate so much.
|
|
mamut
Full Member
Posts: 212
|
Post by mamut on Jun 10, 2019 7:45:42 GMT
I also feel excellent when single and never got into relationships just to be in one. I dont cope well with needs and drama from both sides. Especially lately, where relationships are more difficult to form, I prefer being single.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 13:59:25 GMT
happyidiot once when I was triggered anxious anxious it was with a man who was unstable emotionally, I think he might have OCPD but of course can't diagnose him. He had a lot of trauma and was very obsessive and also extremely changeable. So he would love love love me one minute and want to be with me for the big things and then be totally unsure and distant and openly critical the next. It was really destabilizing. I got anxious and after a few days of that I saw that it was just crazy to keep going with that dysfunction and I ended it. It did take me a couple months to get over the feelings, not anxious longing but a huge sense of betrayal and being yanked around. With the other avoidant, I can't remember what I thought but I just knew that I felt I NEEDED him and that he was not going to reciprocate. I ended it but we got back together, he didn't reciprocate, and I eventually left again but was more dismissive the next time around and when I left my switch was "Flipped" like your sister. It is indeed a protective power and comes in very handy for useless situations. The most angst I feel about a relationship is in it, if it's with an unavailable person... so by the time I leave my switch got flipped and I'm just going to extricate and move on. It seems like the different types have different driving styles; AP: bumpercars FA: speeding, dodging traffic and sideswiping, getting wheels in the ditch and veering back into the lane DA: driving too slow and sliding off into the ditch. Grind out of the ditch but two wheels stay caught and sooner or later, slide back into the ditch. 😂
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Jun 10, 2019 15:16:17 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 15:49:14 GMT
Helsbells it really seems that the major difference is , the more anxious AP feels, the more they will put up with. The more anxious a DA feels, the less they will put up with. Opposite directions, it's just interesting to get the personal perspectives of it. Thank you. I'm sorry it's plagued you like that. I just can't imagine.
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Jun 11, 2019 6:53:30 GMT
Again, this is just my own experience, but as an FA I feel like I experience two fairly distinct types of anxiety. One feels AP-like and one feels avoidant (by which I don't mean that I assume DAs necessarily feel like this, but that I feel like running away and avoiding when I feel this way). The first type is soothed by reassurance from my partner, the second is soothed by having time by myself. So far I haven't actually broken up with someone due to the latter type but it's hard not to. Mostly I think I steered clear of it for years because for a long time, until recently, I usually wouldn't even go on a second date with someone who was likely to trigger it. Perhaps I also experienced it when I was younger but I can't really remember. It's triggered by a number of things including if a partner engages in certain AP behaviors, especially controlling or hostile protest behaviors. The "feel" of the anxiety is different, even down to the physical sensations. The AP-like anxiety is triggered more by a partner puling away (or just acting different, colder, less affectionate, etc) and it's more of a desperate obsessive longing. I think deep down they are both mostly due to perceived threats to the relationship (even if not conscious at the time), but usually different ones.The avoidant one is more of a fight or flight and the the anxious one is more of a cling or cry. Sometimes I can even get them both in a short time period. The avoidant anxious feeling at it's extreme makes me feel kind of horrified with my partner and think I do NOT want to be with them and my feelings for them may even seem gone for a brief time, whereas the AP-like anxious feeling at its extreme might make me think my partner is my soulmate slipping through my fingers and I will die without them. they're both awful. I can explain the two feelings in more detail if anyone is interested.
@sherry Do you think you felt a specific one of those two or something else?
I'm also curious if any of this sounds familiar to other FAs here?
|
|
laney
New Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by laney on Jun 11, 2019 9:15:03 GMT
I see more similarly between AP and FA than I do between FA and DA, but I could be so wrong and just not get it. I think , as an FA, I really either feel like an AP or a DA inwardly, but normally act DA, no matter if I really don't care or care too much. I very very rarely act as an AP, maybe once every two or three years. From the outside I probably seem either really relaxed and easy-going or too cold. Why do FA leave a relationship? I have never been left, I have always been the leaver, and it's always been due to feeling unhappy with the treatment I'm receiving in the relationship, knowing that I am more peaceful alone even if I get lonely. I cannot abide lots of anger or instability. I've had a difficult time understanding and being able to meet the needs of partners who seemed unquenchable and incapable of happiness, to me. I haven't seen this as personal inadequacy as much as fundamental incompatibility and being a square peg in a round hole, cut from a different cloth, or however you want to say it. Somehow just not like the others, but ok with that ultimately. Does this resonate with FA here? I think mostly FA post. Do you have different motivations for ending a relationship? Is there a pattern in FA of why they leave? I hardly ever get into relationships to begin with, but when dating... I have a no tolerance for AP behavior. As soon as someone that I hardly know, starts being mean, complains that I don't give them enough time or stalks or threatens me in any way, I am out of there immediately. I might stick around a little bit and try to explain to that person why their behavior is unreasonable and mean and I might feel a little bit flattered that they stick around, but in the end I understand that they don't really love ME but a fantasy that they made up in their own mind and because I don't want to cause them any pain, I think it's more merciful to break up as soon as I realize that this wouldn't work. With DA behavior most of the time, we will never get together. They don't chase and I don't chase either. So if someone doesn't show any interest, I will just not message either. Why would I? I don't actually know if avoidance at that stage is a trigger for me though, because it has happened before that someone acted lovingly and secure and suddenly seemed avoidant (either because they were busy or because they actually were trying to get me to chase) and it felt sooo bad that I immediately lost all of my positive feelings. The only way to get into a relationship for me is if someone is always there, always warm and never mean, never angry, never reacts with either anger or avoidance to my avoidance. If I learn to trust this person, love is possible for me. Unfortunately once I love, if that person changes, I would put up with almost everything and actually never leave. Also, do you feel anxious when a relationship with an attachment figure feels threatened somehow? Do you exhibit anxious behaviors, feel actual anxiety like AP describe? I do not. My automatic reaction is a recognition of a threat and right into deactivation. I may experience some kind of anxiety but I guess I suppress it and return to a status quo where I'm alone and alone is good. Not necessarily happy but good and safe and stable and doable. I need stability and predictability and consistency so much that I feel I simply cannot continue past a certain point of those are threatened. Of course I need "space" and that's imperative too. My attachment dies if not supported by those things. And when my attachment does, any anxiety ends, and I'm feeling relieved and in control of my well being again. I'll start anew on another path. Is this what FA experience generally? I feel extremely anxious when a relationship with an attachment figure is threatened, it feels like death. I sometimes go into activation but even if my response turns toward deactivation, it inwardly feels like death. If I go into anxious deactivation it feels like experiencing learned helplessness, like major depression, like knowing nothing I could say or do could change anything, I will be abandoned and left and fighting would just make things worse and make me even lose my dignity. So I cry, I roll around in my bed sleepless, I have nightmares, I am feverish but all of this alone and without telling the person. What you describe happens to me only if it is about someone I care about a little but not too much.
|
|
laney
New Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by laney on Jun 11, 2019 9:32:01 GMT
Again, this is just my own experience, but as an FA I feel like I experience two fairly distinct types of anxiety. One feels AP-like and one feels avoidant (by which I don't mean that I assume DAs necessarily feel like this, but that I feel like running away and avoiding when I feel this way). The first type is soothed by reassurance from my partner, the second is soothed by having time by myself. So far I haven't actually broken up with someone due to the latter type but it's hard not to. Mostly I think I steered clear of it for years because for a long time, until recently, I usually wouldn't even go on a second date with someone who was likely to trigger it. Perhaps I also experienced it when I was younger but I can't really remember. It's triggered by a number of things including if a partner engages in certain AP behaviors, especially controlling or hostile protest behaviors. The "feel" of the anxiety is different, even down to the physical sensations. The AP-like anxiety is triggered more by a partner puling away (or just acting different, colder, less affectionate, etc) and it's more of a desperate obsessive longing. I think deep down they are both mostly due to perceived threats to the relationship (even if not conscious at the time), but usually different ones.The avoidant one is more of a fight or flight and the the anxious one is more of a cling or cry. Sometimes I can even get them both in a short time period. The avoidant anxious feeling at it's extreme makes me feel kind of horrified with my partner and think I do NOT want to be with them and my feelings for them may even seem gone for a brief time, whereas the AP-like anxious feeling at its extreme might make me think my partner is my soulmate slipping through my fingers and I will die without them. they're both awful. I can explain the two feelings in more detail if anyone is interested. I'm also curious if any of this sounds familiar to other FAs here? both feelings are very familiar to me as an FA
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 15:52:05 GMT
Again, this is just my own experience, but as an FA I feel like I experience two fairly distinct types of anxiety. One feels AP-like and one feels avoidant (by which I don't mean that I assume DAs necessarily feel like this, but that I feel like running away and avoiding when I feel this way). The first type is soothed by reassurance from my partner, the second is soothed by having time by myself. So far I haven't actually broken up with someone due to the latter type but it's hard not to. Mostly I think I steered clear of it for years because for a long time, until recently, I usually wouldn't even go on a second date with someone who was likely to trigger it. Perhaps I also experienced it when I was younger but I can't really remember. It's triggered by a number of things including if a partner engages in certain AP behaviors, especially controlling or hostile protest behaviors. The "feel" of the anxiety is different, even down to the physical sensations. The AP-like anxiety is triggered more by a partner puling away (or just acting different, colder, less affectionate, etc) and it's more of a desperate obsessive longing. I think deep down they are both mostly due to perceived threats to the relationship (even if not conscious at the time), but usually different ones.The avoidant one is more of a fight or flight and the the anxious one is more of a cling or cry. Sometimes I can even get them both in a short time period. The avoidant anxious feeling at it's extreme makes me feel kind of horrified with my partner and think I do NOT want to be with them and my feelings for them may even seem gone for a brief time, whereas the AP-like anxious feeling at its extreme might make me think my partner is my soulmate slipping through my fingers and I will die without them. they're both awful. I can explain the two feelings in more detail if anyone is interested. @sherry Do you think you felt a specific one of those two or something else? I'm also curious if any of this sounds familiar to other FAs here? happyidiot I have experienced the cling very briefly a couple of times. But it was very short lived and not my pattern. Typically, my brand of avoidant insecurity involves detaching. I go through a brief period of recognition that things are not ok and then I become dismissive, verbally, then physiologically. I do lose the attachment sense and feelings. I don't feel horrified I just feel that I was mistaken and my stance is feeling removed and subdued. The other shoe has hen fallen and I am very suppressed. I get tired. I am not really emotionally connected at that time but can go through the motions with non-attachment figures- my children for example. But, I prefer no contact with the person I've (mistakenly I think) been involved with and also prefer solitude and isolation from others. During this time I just am very over-regulated in my nervous system. It's very mysterious to me at that point, how I could have felt something like attachment, it becomes like a weird dream. I know that dismissive can be dissociative, maybe it's like that. I do believe I experience the normal "bid and respond" patterns- I don't think my reaching out to my partner in the course of normal relating is anxious, at all. If my simple bid is not met, I eventually deactivate. AP behavior in a partner causes me to just be finished, I don't go through deactivation. It doesn't threaten me it just repels me. I am very leary of accidentally becoming involved with an AP again, and going through a period of seeming compatibility and then the switch-flip of protest behavior and accusations of insincerity. I don't want to get involved with another insecure of any type but AP I just actually feel doomed to sometimes. I know that's not the real truth as long as I stay aware and keep growing but I miss the signs every time!!! It has helped to have more friends around me that I can unpack things with. I've had a hard time reading the compass when it comes to dating/courtship behaviors and I have not recognized the patterns soon enough in the past. The last time I did date I was able to spot things right away but that was with the help of friends who pointed it out to me. I am most trying to figure out where I miss the mark with emotional availability in myself, what my own blind spots are in my self. Because it's even harder for me to read someone else than it is myself. I do better when I'm not under general stress , for sure. It's all tiresome , sometimes. I'll admit, I just get weary. Then I retreat to what I know feels like home. Isolation. However, my long term trajectory, over time, has been to grow and come out of each difficult time more whole, healthy, and aware. Anyway. I'm super dense about courtship. I avoid it, naturally. I'm ok with that. Nothing ventured, nothing gained... but nothing lost either. I've got friends that are the most important to me. I know that I have healthy connections with a few close friends. That's very valuable to me and helps my whole process, they are my confidantes and help me through things I used to make myself get through alone. laney I did relate to quite a bit of what you shared, also. This kind of dialog helps me understand a little better, although it's still difficult to tell "Are you saying what I think you're saying? Are you feeling what I think or am I misunderstanding?". It takes me a while to be able to fully unpack and express what goes on in me, sometimes I just don't see it or I get so confused and if I try to understand it it just gets all blurry to me and I go do something else. Again, that's probably a dismissive problem. Just not fully able to grasp my own self sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Jun 18, 2019 4:10:26 GMT
Did some posts get deleted from this thread? I swear someone asked me a question that is now gone.
|
|