katy
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Post by katy on Jul 2, 2016 13:48:57 GMT
I saw this statement on a discussion board about dealing with narcissists but it seems to get to the essence of why so many people have difficulties understanding that avoidants and narcissists may initially seem charming and lucid but that their behavior in relationships is not based on the same underlying thought patterns as other people. As many people have seen, trying to understand avoidant/narcissist behavior from our very different frame of reference is just a recipe for sadness and frustration.
"Understand that the aggressor [avoidant / narcissist] is not like you, and has a nonexistent or very limited conscience and emotional capacity. Understand that he/she is more like a wild animal. You can not reason with a wild animal, but you can try to understand its nature and protect yourself accordingly. If you were attacked by a mountain lion, would you get angry and look for revenge? Would you try to use punishment to make it behave like a civilized human? Or would it be better to just understand that it is an animal and has its own nature, a nature that you can not change?"
This quote comes from this discussion board if anybody is interested in reading the entire three page discussion:
cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11964.0.html |
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raco
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Post by raco on Jul 2, 2016 14:29:48 GMT
It makes sense, and I guess I'm not wise enough not to get mad at avoidants or narcissists. That said, a lion is supposed to be a predator that is expected to eat other animals, including humans. Part of the fascination we can have for wild animals comes from the strength and the danger they represent. It's easy to admire them for what they really are. People travel and spend a lot of money to be able to see some lions. It's harder to admire an avoidant or a narcissist for what they really are...
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katy
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Post by katy on Jul 2, 2016 16:08:19 GMT
Raco,
I think that we all know that lions, tigers, alligators, and sharks are innately dangerous and that they act out of instinct to hunt prey and to protect themselves. We automatically know to keep our distance from something that can hurt or kill us.
The problem that so many of us seem to have is that we keep returning to the thought that avoidants and narcissists, who often start out being very charming, are really people who are misguided but who can be reasoned with. I think that's the source of so much of the rumination and obsession that we have about figuring out how to make things work with avoidants and narcissists. So many people have inner dialogs about if the avoidant / narcissist would only do that and I could do this, then things would work out. The sad truth is that things probably aren't going to work out because the avoidant / narcissist is acting according to instincts that are very different from ours.
It's much harder to recognize an avoidant / narcissist because they can, at first, appear to be great. But, once we've identified that they have a different attachment style, then it seems to make it easier to let the avoidant / narcissist go if we can realize that they are acting out of instinct, just as everybody does, but that their instincts are not the same as our instincts. And, as you wouldn't expect an alligator to suddenly turn off its predatory instincts, you aren't going to turn off the instincts of an avoidant / narcissist.
My normal relationships are full of compromise and I had a very hard time understanding that a person, whom I originally thought was very personable and wise, could be so unwilling or unable to logically discuss how to work out a simple solution to an easy problem. In my case, I had to radically shift my thinking from the person being normal, nice, and pleasant to understanding that he has very hard-wired avoidant / narcissist behavior patterns which makes him incapable of regular problem-solving discussions. In some ways, he's as hard-wired to be remote and difficult as I am to be compromising as an alligator is to hunt prey in the lagoon at Disney World.
Katy
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raco
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Post by raco on Jul 2, 2016 17:08:05 GMT
You're right, of course. I recently heard that we all do the best that we can, and that nobody really has more merit than another (I realized that with this video). I would not be better than the avoidants I know if I were born in their family, with the same parents, the same environment, at the same time. I would just be them. Since I realized this, I have some compassion for avoidant people. But at the same time, I feel like I've been used by an avoidant, as if I were a disposable object. I gave a lot, received absolutely nothing in return, was fooled by a fake nice personality, before suddenly being dismissed with no explanation (except that everything was my fault), no remorse, nothing. And I know this person is actively trying to do the same thing with others, like a virus that goes from host to host. So the nature of an avoidant is what it is and it's not the avoidant's fault, but still, unlike the nature of a wild animal, it's disgusting. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Jul 2, 2016 17:51:34 GMT
Raco,
OMG!
"But at the same time, I feel like I've been used by an avoidant, as if I were a disposable object. I gave a lot, received absolutely nothing in return, was fooled by a fake nice personality, before suddenly being dismissed with no explanation (except that everything was my fault), no remorse, nothing. And I know this person is actively trying to do the same thing with others, like a virus that goes from host to host."
Except for the fact that the fake nice personality did actually give me some tips about training my guard dog, the outline of your story could be my story.
Towards the end, when I couldn't figure out what was going on and why I was being dismissed and being blamed, I began to do some research and actually found Jeb's Web page and information about attachment styles. I confronted the avoidant / narcissist and said that I'd just found info about attachment styles and thought that I might have anxious tendencies and that he might have avoidant tendencies and that maybe we could figure something out. He obviously knew all about it and didn't care - his response to me was that he confused many people because he seemed so friendly but that nobody got close. That quick response told me that he'd been down this road before and that I was one of many. This is a person who is very intelligent and is free to tell you all about how tough his early life was and yet he's doing the same thing to other naïve people.
I've thought to myself that if I had known then what I know now, sad to say, my guard would have been up much more because I now understand that it's a real possibility that a person who seems genuine, loyal, and trustworthy for an extended period of time can suddenly prove to be a hostile fake.
And, snakes, alligators, black widow spiders, bears, sharks, and other wildlife all have their place, but I don't want to get near any of them. I don't love them and I don't hate them, I just want them away from me so that I'm safe.
Take care.
Katy
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raco
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Post by raco on Jul 2, 2016 19:07:48 GMT
Your avoidant seems to be somewhat aware that he's special and that people often end up being disappointed with him. Mine seems not to be aware of his avoidant personality at all. Like you, when I realized something was wrong, I searched for an explanation, using Google. I could sense there was something very particular about his personality, so I thought it could be some kind of documented personality disorder. I first found a condition named Alexithymia, which I think he has. Then I found about attachment theory, and everything became clear. Maybe I should share my story someday, it could be interesting for some because it's about an extremely severe case of avoidant attachment. Once I learned about avoidant attachment, I realized that I knew some other avoidant people, including one of my friends. I said to myself "That explains a lot of things... OK, farewell to you." and has not contacted this friend since this. Now I come accross some avoidants from time to time on dating sites, and I think I can spot them before even meeting them. It's very easy to do once you learned about them. I also decided to learn about narcissistic people, as a preventive measure. It made me realize how much avoidants and narcissists have in common. And yes, as you point out, they can be intelligent, they can be social, funny, charming, etc. They don't have an Avoidant Personality Disorder at all. They can seem to be a normal person. But at some point, when I became less naive, I felt almost as if I was dealing with an alien disguised as a human, who was trying to imitate the human behavior. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Jul 2, 2016 22:15:25 GMT
Raco,
You have really taken the bull by the horns and learned how to clearly identify avoidants and narcissists. My confidence that I won't be taken in again is growing as I'm trying to consolidate what I've learned. As I look back, as I dealt with the avoidant / narcissist, I can now see that I received some huge clues but I didn't realize their importance. For example, he often talked with me about how overwhelming it was to have to deal with a large number of people in his business. In my naïve state, I thought, I'm his friend, he's telling me about THOSE people, I'll try to be kind and supportive. Little did I know that I would soon morph, in his mind, into the worst of THOSE people. There were so many more things I didn't interpret correctly because I was unaware of the avoidant/narcissist frame that he applies to relationships. After lots of examination, I can say that I definitely learned many lessons from all of this.
One thing I learned is that if you don't let yourself get hooked in, narcissists are just something to observe. We have an acquaintance who is definitely a narcissist - she's very beautiful and she thinks that life definitely revolves around her. She's also not well educated, doesn't know how to manage money, and can't hold onto a relationship. There's no way that she hooks me and I actually find her a little annoying. I also happen to know one of her former boyfriends and many years ago she sent him into a terrible depression before he finally crawled away, a broken man. He definitely was hooked and he didn't know what he was dealing with. His story sounds just like so many of the stories on this forum - he's a decent person who was trying to make her happy and the push/pull and avoidance and manipulation almost drove him over the edge.
What I clearly know is that, in the future, we all need to be careful and listen and evaluate everything.
Take care,
Katy
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raco
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Post by raco on Jul 3, 2016 0:15:02 GMT
Indeed, it's really weird to be regarded as a great person, before suddenly being regarded as someone awful. It's one of the many things that avoidants have in common with narcissists. What's weirder is that the avoidant will do that many times with many people, but he will rarely recognize that something is wrong with him. Another thing in common with narcissists.
Yes, the good thing is that we learn from all this and will make less mistakes in the future.
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Post by Mary on Jul 14, 2016 18:49:22 GMT
"Understand that he/she is more like a wild animal. You can not reason with a wild animal, but you can try to understand its nature and protect yourself accordingly. If you were attacked by a mountain lion, would you get angry and look for revenge? Would you try to use punishment to make it behave like a civilized human? Or would it be better to just understand that it is an animal and has its own nature, a nature that you can not change?"
Pretty strong and hateful words, comparing an avoidant to a wild animal. Ever wonder how an avoidant is created? I will tell you how the avoidant in me was created. I spent a year with my original family, who then dumped me into an orphanage for 2 years. I received little care and affection. I cried and no one cared. I became attached to one of the orphanage workers only to be ripped out again, flown to America, where I didn't know the language, the food and not one person. I entered a strange world, adopted by parents who were neglectful, not affectionate and emotionally abusive.
The avoidant is not a wild, uncivilized animal. They are people that haven't been shown or taught healthy attachment, not shown love and possibly abused and the cycle repeats throughout your life. People throw hate and disdain towards you, because you don't know how to attach like other people and you don't even know it. You know there is no love out there for you, so you remain hidden, never getting too close, because in the end, you will be rejected just like all the other times.
Can an avoidant change? I don't know if it's change, but I have been able to evolve slowly with the help of a very patient partner. I have been able to evolve, because he shows me steadfast love and caring and doesn't push when I need alone time. He has shown me that he won't give up on me, that I will make mistakes and that he will understand when I do. Not everyone can be that special person that is needed, but I think that if you find it, an avoidant can find love.
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raco
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Post by raco on Jul 15, 2016 0:22:34 GMT
Not everyone can be that special person that is needed, but I think that if you find it, an avoidant can find love. Only if the avoidant is self-aware and willing to improve. Otherwise, even if he has found a perfect partner, he will still try to convince himself that this person is bad. Usually, when avoidants can't find a flaw in their partner, they will invent some flaws based on insignificant details, and focus on those details. There are several examples of this on this forum ( here is an avoidant girl who criticizes the way her partner chews gum, here is an avoidant guy who criticizes his wife because she dares to say she likes something). Avoidants who are not self-aware will always think that their partner is not good enough, and will unconsciously try to sabotage their relationship, not matter who their partner is. Some people are willing to sacrifice everything to please their avoidant partner (example here), and it's still not enough. You are very self-aware, but I think that self-awareness is pretty rare among avoidants. And trying to make them realize they are avoidant sometimes seems impossible. They seem to have some kind of defense mechanism that makes them believe what they want to believe, and what they want to believe is that the problem lies in their partner. That's why katy's analogy (who is not hers by the way, it's copied and pasted from another forum) makes sense to me, and I did not interpret it as an insult towards avoidants. Non-avoidant people usually have great difficulties to understand why their avoidant partner acts the way he/she does. We sometimes feel like we're suddenly in the Twilight Zone. This analogy with wild animals can actually be helpful. What this analogy shows is not that avoidants are wild animals. It just shows that it doesn't make sense to try to change an avoidant. I have probably said (or will say) a few things here that are not pleasant to read for avoidant people. But no avoidant who is not self-aware will read those things, and I consider there is a huge difference between someone who tries to sabotage his relationship and blames the other person for everything, and someone who is trying to make things better, like you. One avoidant that I have dealt with has been really awful with me. I know that something terrible probably happened to him in the past and that it's not his fault. The problem is that I felt that I had to pay for it. No, I should not pay for it at all, even if it was something really awful. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Jul 15, 2016 1:18:44 GMT
Mary,
I posted that quote to try to help so many people on this forum, including myself, understand and remember that the avoidants/narcissists who have hurt so many of us approach the world in a very different manner. The avoidant / narcissist whom I dealt with at first appeared to be a kind and friendly person. He was a person whom I felt honored to know and I trusted his good nature. By the end he insulted me, made fun of my medical problems, and abusively shunned me.
The person I knew had initially seemed to be such a nice, kind person and, as many people on this forum also state, I kept hoping that the nice, kind person whom I knew would show up again. The point of my comment was a reminder to all of us that because somebody can sometimes manipulate other people with charm, their thought patterns and relationships with people are very different and they do not relate to the world in the same way that non-avoidants do.
As an example, my husband (who is not an avoidant) hurt his back the other day and was very irritable when he got up in the morning. He definitely wasn't too pleasant to be around. I asked him what was wrong, he admitted that his back hurt, I made him an appointment with the chiropractor, and we discussed what else we could do to help his back. Then he apologized for being rude earlier when he really hadn't felt well.
Contrast that with the avoidant/narcissist who, intermittently, was rude, difficult, and insulting, except when he was being charming. He blamed me, wouldn't discuss what was going on, and never was willing work out a solution the problem.
The difference in these two people is what I was trying to illuminate. My husband is normally a charming, kind person, he was irritable because he was in pain, we worked out a solution, and he apologized.
The avoidant / narcissist appeared to be a charming, kind person, he was irritable for who knows what reason, then he blamed me for everything, he managed to make me feel very rejected and bad about myself, refused to resolve any issues, and finally shunned me.
What I was trying to say is, you are not going to change the internal thought patterns of an avoidant or narcissist who doesn't want to change and that you need to be very careful because trying to deal with them can cause you great sadness.
I'm very sorry that I hurt your feelings. That was not my intention.
Katy
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Post by Jaeger on Jul 15, 2016 6:59:34 GMT
In short, I feel like this quote is meant to illustrate the fact that the thought processes and emotional world of a dismissive avoidant are so different to most of the people that form relationships with them that they can appear alien to us.
We try to understand them using our own thoughts and feelings as a reference (empathy) only to find that it normally doesn't work. That can lead to self doubt and many other negative ways of coping with the behaviours we are subjected to.
The main thing I take away from this quote is that we shouldn't view or interpret a dismissive avoidant's words and actions as we would our own. The differences are too great for that. And that realization can save a lot of people a lot of heartache.
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Post by Jo on Jul 15, 2016 9:07:32 GMT
Hi, I can see both sides to this discussion. My partner, who like you Mary, is a very self aware avoidant, would have been upset by the 'wild animal' illustration. But I can sort of see it from the other side. He has told me that if our relationship were to end, it is unlikely that he would enter another one (that might not be the eventual reality of course). But the reason why he said this is because he is able to be in a relationship with me because of my high tolerance and acceptance levels of his traits. We are also both very good at compromising, so my needs are met to mutually acceptable degree. But if he started a relationship with someone else, he said that he would not go into the new relationship with the adjustments that he has made for us. He said that he would simply 'revert back to form' with someone new, and would not want to 'start all over again'. I wonder if this is one of the things that the 'wild animal' analogy is referring to (I haven't read the original blog - sorry) in that natural instincts and survival behaviours always stay with us.
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katy
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Post by katy on Jul 15, 2016 12:55:47 GMT
What I was really trying to do was to remind other people (and myself), who have gotten so confused and saddened about the erratic, rejecting behavior of avoidants / narcissists, that appearances can be deceiving. Avoidants / narcissists look the same, initially sound the same, but they have very different reactions to relationships.
When a person is rejected in a relationship, it's normal to try to figure what happened and to get things back to normal so that everybody is getting along well again. But, when a non-avoidant is being kind, loving, and supportive, that will not change the avoidant / narcissist or fix the relationship. Instead, kindness and attempts to bond are generally going to be interpreted as invasive, threatening behavior by an avoidant / narcissist.
I was hoping to help people understand that their natural instincts to remain bonded and to keep a relationship going are very counter-productive when they are dealing with a person who sees typical relationship behavior through a totally different lens. As Jo said "natural instincts and survival behaviours always stay with us" and an avoidant / narcissist isn't going to suddenly change their whole way of dealing with the world.
Katy
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Post by strong on Jul 20, 2016 17:34:43 GMT
What I was really trying to do was to remind other people (and myself), who have gotten so confused and saddened about the erratic, rejecting behavior of avoidants / narcissists, that appearances can be deceiving. Avoidants / narcissists look the same, initially sound the same, but they have very different reactions to relationships.
When a person is rejected in a relationship, it's normal to try to figure what happened and to get things back to normal so that everybody is getting along well again. But, when a non-avoidant is being kind, loving, and supportive, that will not change the avoidant / narcissist or fix the relationship. Instead, kindness and attempts to bond are generally going to be interpreted as invasive, threatening behavior by an avoidant / narcissist.
I was hoping to help people understand that their natural instincts to remain bonded and to keep a relationship going are very counter-productive when they are dealing with a person who sees typical relationship behavior through a totally different lens. As Jo said "natural instincts and survival behaviours always stay with us" and an avoidant / narcissist isn't going to suddenly change their whole way of dealing with the world.
Katy
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