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Post by tnr9 on Jul 11, 2021 23:02:24 GMT
This thread is hard for me to read. Why?
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Post by krolle on Jul 12, 2021 4:29:18 GMT
Anne gives a huge amount of awesome information as usual. But I cant process it. The concept of self love/ self care etc are so alien to me I can't comprehend it.
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Post by mrob on Jul 14, 2021 2:31:22 GMT
Anne gives a huge amount of awesome information as usual. But I cant process it. The concept of self love/ self care etc are so alien to me I can't comprehend it. Some of it is way too fruity for me.
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Post by krolle on Jul 15, 2021 20:04:34 GMT
Anne gives a huge amount of awesome information as usual. But I cant process it. The concept of self love/ self care etc are so alien to me I can't comprehend it. Some of it is way too fruity for me. ditto .....fruity lol.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 16, 2021 14:50:06 GMT
estherperel.com/blog/letters-from-esther-8The myth of self-love Self-love is less about the ability to withstand loneliness or establish independence and more about awareness and acceptance of our incompleteness. It’s about letting others love us even when we feel unlovable because their version of us is often kinder than our own. What does self-love look like for you? Try asking yourself the following questions: Can I acknowledge that I messed up without telling myself I’m a mess? Can I practice regret without falling into an abyss? Can I take responsibility without blaming myself? Can I apologize for a mistake instead of hoping everyone will just move on? Can I acknowledge a time when I could have been a better leader in my own life? Can I release myself from the shame of having not responded sooner to someone so that I can finally reach out? Can I accept that I will be okay even if someone who hurt me—a parent, former partner, friend, or stranger—never acknowledges the pain they caused? Can I let someone treat me for a coffee, dinner, or movie without feeling guilty? Can I accept help from another without jumping to the conclusion that they want something from me? Can I hold my point of view without being validated for it? krolle , mrob , I agree that this thread is not quite what would speak to a man, or avoidant even... but there are several posts in here that I found helpful to illuminate a couple areas where I beat myself up- one is with regrets. So when I read this, above, it helped me to think critically about my self-criticism, if you will haha. My question is, what does self-love look like to you, as men, as avoidants.... have you thought of it? Also, self-love, the term itself might make you queasy because of the associations with it- so in that case, maybe I could reframe it as what does self care, self respect, honoring your true and best self look like to you? For me, it looks like being a 'good friend' to myself and talking to myself as though I would talk to a friend, instead of talking to myself how my parents talked to me. There's a big difference between those two, and it's so informative when I note those differences and make conscious choices around them. Of course, earlier in my life I think I was tuned out even to the inner voices and in a vague dimness... feelings and thoughts about this kind of thing were muffled and hard to make out. Do you understand what I mean? Kind of like just moving around in general negatively without a good grasp on any of it. Avoidant, if you will. haha. Anything you'd like to share would be interesting to me. I agree…I use honoring myself, treating myself with respect, treating myself like I matter etc etc. I really think it takes a perspective of…standing in ones own shoes. I have wondered what words, actions and behaviors would represent that for a man.
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Post by krolle on Jul 17, 2021 22:48:49 GMT
Thankyou ladies. I certainly appreciate that you seemed genuinely interested in our opinion. It's not something I'm used to with the women in my real life. Though I can't speak for mrob, or indeed other men, as I'm a bit eccentric.
And there are lots of really good nuggets of info in this thread. I don't want to deny that. But I did like the descriptive, yet playful term "fruity" lol.
For me, one of the big turn offs with the self love stuff in general is the language used. As You guys hinted at. Self love, best Self, showing up for yourself etc. They all just seem like vague cliches that have no practical meaning. I will give Anne credit for listing out some practical questions to ask yourself. That appealed to me. Though the questions themselves were difficult to answer.
In terms of what you said regarding being a good friend to yourselves, then I really admire that you are able to get some positive outcome from talking to yourself in a kinder way. But once again, if I did that I would just feel like I'm lying to myself. Or living in denial. Real world experiences always trump any positive affirmations I might tell myself.
A lot of these reflexive verbs sound like another language or something I have no concept of.
In terms of more palleatable words, like self care perhaps. Then I'm notoriously bad at that. I abuse my mind and body in some quiet sadistic ways. Though as I said before. I think that's a me thing, not a men thing.
The closest approximation to self care I have is my hobbies. Distractions I guess you could call them. Which is a fancier way of saying avoidance lol. I'm feeling terrible about something.... I go out sailing. I think this habit might be common to a lot of men. A retreat into something that takes your mind off the depressing nature of life. Booze, sports, man caves, hobbies, woodwork etc. Something that forces you to be you present.
Another problem I have with some of the advice in our sphere of interest, is that Self love, care, respect and the taking care of ones own needs don't happen in a vacuum. Not without a cocktail of other emotions at least, yours and others.
Take for example my current dating situation. I haven't been dating in almost 2 years now. Even though I'm very lonely, and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out one of the reasons I'm quiet depressed is because I'm unwilling to pursue my need for companionship. But to be able to get past that I would have to overcome shame, And I would have to act selfish. Which are big enough psychological barriers to prevent taking care of that need.
There are many situations in life and relationships where taking care of yourself involves hurting/depriving/dishonouring others. How does one navigate that ethically? Especially if your HSP like some of us.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 17, 2021 23:45:30 GMT
But to be able to get past that I would have to overcome shame, And I would have to act selfish. ... There are many situations in life and relationships where taking care of yourself involves hurting/depriving/dishonouring others. How does one navigate that ethically? Especially if your HSP like some of us. This is a typical insecure attachment problem, especially for AP and FA. The belief that self-care is selfish, or that it impacts others. Something to think about is that thought pattern and belief is actually symptomatic of bad and unhealthy boundaries. Worrying about how taking care of yourself (adversely) affects others is inherently co-dependent and related to enmeshment, because there's no healthy separation between self and others. I know saying this intellectually isn't that helpful against those powerful shame and emotional patterns, but planting a seed of giving it deeper consideration and examination is a good start. I've had this conversation both with myself lol and with other people on this board, though. Specifically questioning if focus on self and self-care is narcissistic or selfish. I remember feeling very strongly like it was when I was AP, and "working on it" directly didn't really make it better. One thing that helped me, which requires some privilege and is extremely difficult during covid, was I took a lengthy vacation during which I traveled totally alone for some of it. I forced myself to focus on doing and eating only what I wanted to and what interested me for the duration. So, not caring about doing things to tell someone about and sound cool later or doing something because it was popular and everyone recommended it or because there was some other voice in my head guiding me. Having the freedom and space to connect with myself and figure out what I even like in general in life without giving thought to how I've been influenced by others in the past. There's ways you can do something similar without travel and that expense. It was very hard to start though, because my baseline attitude at the time was what you're talking about. I literally had to force myself to stick with this every day but it started to feel more natural after a couple weeks. It was very deliberate decision-making that went against my normal "script." I know you've said you're well-traveled, I am too, but there was still a big and deliberate difference in how I was approaching the time alone. Something to ponder that may help. My FA ex also told me he was the worst at self-care. There's more to the story than that, but it's too much identifying info about someone else for a public forum, but I think this is a sort of typical problem for FA and maybe FA men, and it's not just you. His lack of ability to do it actually was detrimental to me, and had he been able to break through the shame spiral and take care of himself better, it would have been far less selfish. There's a saying that if someone can't take care of themselves, how do you expect they can take care of you, and in my experience in life I've found it to be true. But when I was AP, it didn't seem this way and wasn't internalized this way, so it takes deeper consideration to get there.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 17, 2021 23:47:30 GMT
One more thing to add, assuming self-care is detrimental to others is just that... an assumption. You don't really know how others are thinking and feeling, and moving away from the idea that you need to support and regulate them is again about healthy boundaries. If you aren't enabling them, they'll find other ways to get their needs met. It's not only your responsibility.
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Post by mrob on Jul 18, 2021 8:25:39 GMT
That’s interesting, alexandra. The first time I practiced “self care” inverted commas intended, was when I put my foot down in an avoidant way and ended up here. Before that, I’d been married twice where I’d felt pressured, then went along with someone else’s timetable all the way to the end, being totally conflicted. There’s irony in there, that’s for sure. I’ll come back and edit this… there’s quite a bit more.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 18, 2021 8:47:45 GMT
That makes sense. Swinging avoidant is over-correcting though, and still isn't getting you to a healthy boundary balance. It's out of a place of overwhelm and fear instead of being connected enough to yourself to actually choose what's best for you. It's incredibly challenging to figure out where that balance is when you're starting from insecure, but it's somewhere between both prioritizing taking care of yourself and being comfortable and reliable showing up for others in a way that isn't co-dependent. They're not mutually exclusive.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 18, 2021 13:04:48 GMT
That’s interesting, alexandra . The first time I practiced “self care” inverted commas intended, was when I put my foot down in an avoidant way and ended up here. Before that, I’d been married twice where I’d felt pressured, then went along with someone else’s timetable all the way to the end, being totally conflicted. There’s irony in there, that’s for sure. I’ll come back and edit this… there’s quite a bit more. I have done that too….and I think where there are huge enmeshment issues….swinging avoidant is a way to create distance and space. Behind that though, I found, is a desire to simply break free of being at the whim of “the other”…and that required me to go deeper into my own boundaries. Honestly, the somatic experiencing therapist helped me so much with that because I found a correlation between my lack of physically knowing where I end and the “other” begins and my emotional lack of a boundary. Once I really sensed “myself” as a fully separate and autonomous individual…I was able to depersonalize so much that had swung me avoidant in the past. I still have my moments…but I am more at peace.
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Post by krolle on Jul 18, 2021 14:04:37 GMT
As always I really enjoy your input Alexandra. As you might guess with me though there are inevitable "Yeah but's..." coming. Though you have given me a lot to ponder!
First of all I want to concur that a person who cannot look after themselves is in poor shape to be there for others. The classic 'airplan oxygen mask scenario'. I'v been a poor partner on many occasions due to this. And I'v been on the recieving end of it too. Most memorably an FA ex who ran herself ragged trying to people please and fit in that she ended things with me, as far as I could tell, mostly out of exhaustion. She just didnt want another person to have to be perfect around I guess.
I also cannot deny I am very codependant. And have lots of history of enmeshment But I Just can't get away from feeling as though it's selfish to put your needs first. Thankyou for expressing you went through similar difficulty conceptualizing it too.
Of course I can think of many examples which would involve no conflict, and little shame. If you're single for example. Just taking the time to do what you want, what helps a you relax etc. easy pickin's ethically. As you well mentioned about travel I have spent a lot of time exploring alone for the exact reason you said. So I could do what I want, when I want, pretty much. My problem comes when your needs conflict with someone else's. especially in a romantic relationship with a person you care about. An example: A friend of mine who's wife suddenly left him and took their daughter away after 12 years of marriage. She left him for the neighbour because he was a lot more financially stable than my friend, who was a great guy, and great dad, but poorly educated and low paid. So she always felt insecure about money. In her head she was just meeting her needs for safety by leaving him for the rich guy. But to my friend, a soul destroying episode of his life. Was her focus on her own needs ethical? I would have felt a lot of shame.
In regards to my own situation of not dating. It's an especially awkward situation in that my ex has BPD, and it's a small town. When we split she told me if she saw me with another woman she would make sure I'd regret it. I know it sounds an awful thing to say. But I know she must be in so much pain internally to say something like that. I find the desire to control others, whilst incredibly destructive, is usually born out an extreme feeling of anxiety. Aside from the fear I know I would feel a lot of shame if she saw me with another woman. I'd rather hurt me than hurt her.
You talk about your experience around feeling selfish as though it's in the past. We're you able to conquer it then?
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Post by krolle on Jul 18, 2021 14:12:36 GMT
That’s interesting, alexandra . The first time I practiced “self care” inverted commas intended, was when I put my foot down in an avoidant way and ended up here. Before that, I’d been married twice where I’d felt pressured, then went along with someone else’s timetable all the way to the end, being totally conflicted. There’s irony in there, that’s for sure. I’ll come back and edit this… there’s quite a bit more. I have done that too….and I think where there are huge enmeshment issues….swinging avoidant is a way to create distance and space. Behind that though, I found, is a desire to simply break free of being at the whim of “the other”…and that required me to go deeper into my own boundaries. Honestly, the somatic experiencing therapist helped me so much with that because I found a correlation between my lack of physically knowing where I end and the “other” begins and my emotional lack of a boundary. Once I really sensed “myself” as a fully separate and autonomous individual…I was able to depersonalize so much that had swung me avoidant in the past. I still have my moments…but I am more at peace. I feel you both on this one. A big reason why I have been triggered to my own avoidant side is out of a feeling of being controlled. Your expression of being at the 'whim' of someone else captures the sensation perfectly.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 18, 2021 20:29:33 GMT
You talk about your experience around feeling selfish as though it's in the past. We're you able to conquer it then? Yes. But it came with generally earning secure and was gradual over time. It's difficult to describe a specific exercise you can do because it's part of the entire process, but I know a turning point came when I made the decision to start doing what I did on that vacation I described. It also coincided with going firmly no contact for many months with my ex, which was for the first time with anyone. It was extremely difficult to do that because it felt like I'd be hurting him, but it was essential I put my needs above his at that point for my own sanity (he'd dumped me and didn't want to be with me but wouldn't let me go or give me space because, FA). So it was a real, deliberate focus on doing what was best for me. I think you can consider two more things. One is that focus on self isn't the same as being hurtful to others. The best way I can think of to explain it is going through your examples and drawing out healthy versus not. In regards to your friend and his ex-wife, first of all, that sucks. But it's also an extreme example. She made lots of mistakes: 1. Letting emotion dictate over compatibility and longer-term goals... if she knew she wanted financial security above all, she shouldn't have married someone with more obstacles to providing that for her. Or maybe she was young and didn't know how important it was to her until it was too late, but even then you have other options. 2. Such as talking honestly to her husband about it and how to solve it together. Maybe she could have gotten a part-time job. I'm sure she didn't want to and instead harbored resentment and made him feel bad about himself before finding another safety net, and that's her bad. 3. Checking out of a seriously committed relationship enough to meet someone else before breaking things off. That's really not okay because of the disrespect it shows for the other person. So I don't think that's a case of she's selfish because she puts her needs first. You can put your needs first and still respect the other person. She's just an @$$ of a person. That doesn't mean the relationship was good or could have worked out, but she could have handled it a LOT better if she wanted to. In regards to your ex with BPD, it's difficult and sometimes scary, and it's painful. However, you didn't cause her BPD and you can't fix it. You need to be able to live your own life as two whole individuals. She may not have that capacity, but again, a healthy boundary is that's not on you. You can feel for her from afar, it's not like life with a personality disorder is easy or fun, but it's not healthy to feel you need to change the way you wish to live for an ex. You're not actually hurting her, she's projecting a lot of other stuff onto you, which she can choose to try to deal with in a healthy way (managing her BPD with professional help), or not. You're not trying to control or abuse her or go out of your way to hurt her or be malicious, so you're minding your side by being a respectful human who doesn't want to hurt anyone. That's all you can do, you're not equipped to manage her BPD and anxiety for her. That isn't putting your needs first in a selfish way or hurting yourself instead of her... she's hurting herself in how she receives you just doing your thing. It's tough, I know, it's tough for me to even describe because I used to think people should act in emotional consideration of everyone. But it was that I didn't have healthy boundaries and couldn't properly process and get past things when others were just living their life while trying to do no harm, so I thought everyone was that way and we all needed to regulate each other emotionally. But that's what I learned from co-dependent family upbringing, with lots of AP and personality disorders around me. It's not actually how every human is, and it's not healthy. (I do think everyone should look out for each other in a society and not do things that physically hurt others or intentionally emotionally abuse others, but you're not responsible for emotionally regulating how others receive you if you're not doing anything disrespectful but they have crappy boundaries and can't connect to or process their own emotions and self well). AP and FA both struggle with wanting external validation and emotional regulation because they didn't learn how to do it for themselves. It's part of learned co-dependency and enmeshment. The second thing to consider is, you don't need to put your needs above all others, exactly. I'm not doing that as much as trying to think of it as a team effort, with the needs of others getting equal consideration to mine but keeping an overall healthy lens on boundaries, which may result in my saying no to someone but it's really not having any long-term negative impact on anyone. Plus, you need to assume other people are fully functioning adults and not children, and that they either are capable of being okay or that it's on them (not you, everyone is responsible for their own happiness) to take responsibility to get there. I'm not the authority on what's healthy boundaries, but I'll tell you something that happened earlier this month that I'd have dealt with differently a few years ago. A family member recently got themselves into a bind by not preparing for something in advance or communicating well and asked me to do a favor to help them get out of it. They were very anxious and stressed about it. It was a totally reasonable ask except that logistically, it would screw up my existing plans for that weekend that I couldn't reschedule. Plus it was asking something I'm not very good at so I wasn't entirely comfortable, but the main issue for me was the logistics, I'd have otherwise done it. I felt bad about it, but I said no -- while also communicating well about why I said no and then trying to help with other ways to solve the problem (asking a couple other people who would be better at it if they were in the neighborhood, suggesting a website that provides a service to help with the same thing). In the end, the person did some research and found out the issue would be okay waiting another couple days until they could attend to it themselves, and no one was hurt, mad, or inconvenienced. But if I dropped everything based on the emotional reaction of feeling bad that they were overwhelmed and needed me to rescue them or emotionally regulate them because they don't handle stress well, they wouldn't have sought out better solutions and I'd have been resentful that all my plans would have been canceled, having a negative longer-term impact on both sides. Even though I'd have ultimately been the one to make the decision to cancel my plans, so resentment wouldn't even be fair. In regards to romantic relationships, I feel like part of the issue again goes back to who (general) you choose and if they're a safe partner or not. With my boyfriend, he leaves me plenty of room to be who I am and to communicate my needs even if they're not fully aligned with his, and vice-versa, and then we figure out the best net solution. But because we have a solid foundation of trust, including in the intentions of the other person wanting what's best for each of us, no one feels slighted or that there's an imbalance even if sometimes one need is met better than another. When I was dating other unaware insecures, I'm pretty sure we were both keeping score to an extent and resentment would build as no one knew how to get their needs met or how to prioritize what was longer-term important needs that mattered versus nice to have in the moment.
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Post by anne12 on Jul 22, 2021 9:15:21 GMT
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