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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 3:19:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 3:19:22 GMT
1. I really can't fix my mind around this friend - I wonder if she has "turned" due to being exhausted as the shoulder I cried on? I got into trouble and lost a big sum of money to an incompetent lawyer who made some really basic and terrible mistakes, and poured out to her. She was questioning my judgment, the lawyer might have made mistakes because I gave too many details, etc...but in fact the lawyer made mistakes about the court hearing dates and document filing datelines. I felt uncomfortable about her reaction,...if it were the other way round, I'd usually ask, "oh dear, I'm sorry that happened to you, what mistakes were made, does this set you back, etc. " I wouldn't ask "Is this because you did these other things wrong, could these these be your errors?" And then the likes of the NPD abuser's posts. I feel really weird and upset. The ex's issues to me seem morally clear, financial dishonesty and cheating. She seems to be not having my back, of course she isn't obliged to, but she's one of my oldest friends. I hope to let it rest and catch up with her after a couple of weeks. However, I am wary, not angry anymore. This rift could sadden me much more than the recent breakup with ex DA!
Btw, on a scale of 1-10, my thoughts and longing for ex DA has gone down to 2-3. Maybe it's because my mind is preoccupied with other things and I don't have time to think of him. 2. With this friend, I'm torn as I'm her shoulder to cry on, but I don't approve of what she is doing. she says she needs this to feel better over what she considers a love betrayal. I did suggest reading up on AP, and she did. She did extensive work with her therapist on her AP attachment style just last week. I was surprised when she still went ahead to get hold of the info. I guess I don't know the best way to act as her friend under these circumstances as I don't want to enable what she is determined to do.
But yes, two different instances of anger, and I wonder about them. They don't trouble me, but what lessons do they hold?
i had similar situations to situation #1 , eerily so. i didn't like it and just let the friendship go. that's before awareness of dismissive avoidance in me. i'm so far removed now from problems with sicko exes and devastating situations with shitty attorneys- but i'd probably still not feel comfortable with this from a friend. i don't have any friendships now that feel sketchy in any way. and that's the way i like it!!
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liz
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 13:13:58 GMT
Post by liz on Nov 6, 2018 13:13:58 GMT
I appreciate the different feedback. About the situations
(edit: Ops, apologies to anne12, I was reading the other Anger thread and posts about Forgiveness, I mistook those posts for anne12's previous post which is about slowing down forgiveness to process it).
1. I'm sorry Anne, I cannot forgive the NPD ex as he never expressed remorse for abusive behavior, cheating and financially robbing me. There are people in this world who would qualify as "evil", and he is still doing everything he can to hurt me as it offers satisfaction to him. I inflicted a huge injury because I distanced myself after his abusive behavior and stopped giving emotionally, financially, etc. I think if anyone is familiar with NPD, they know what this is about. However, I'm working hard on forgetting him completely and on the legal recourse to salvage whatever I can financially. juniper, I will forgive my friend, but the foundation of the friendship is somewhat rattled. I tried to ask her, and she replied that she "liked" his posts because they were also about how he was "improving" himself physically and mentally doing one of the most expensive global training/competitions programs that already burned up at a minimum US$100,000 within the past year. His girlfriend had accompanied him on at least 6 international trips he paid for staying at luxury resorts for this program. All of that while he owed me substantial amounts of money. He's likely doing this to drain his accounts so I can't recover my money. My friend knows all this. I wonder if it crossed her mind his "improvement" is at my expense on so many levels? She has only ticked "like", it isn't a big deal compared to what he did, but how is it possible to see the grey area? Maybe I need to distance myself too, from this friend, but a part of me says she didn't really do anything wrong, even though she hurt me. I didn't see this side of her as before the NPD ex, I didn't share as I did. This is the anger that I'm struggling with. 2. It seems the shoe is on the other foot! My AP friend's anger is also uncomfortable for me, even though I'm the one she has leaned on. I absolutely do not think she should enmesh herself further, especially by violating boundaries, but it's difficult to be in this position for me, to both support her and not supporting her!
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 14:24:44 GMT
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Post by mrob on Nov 6, 2018 14:24:44 GMT
Forgiveness isn’t for them. It’s so you can get on with your life. Holding onto resentment is like drinking the poison and expecting them to die.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 15:10:59 GMT
Post by boomerang on Nov 6, 2018 15:10:59 GMT
Anne, thank you for this. I have never read anything before about forgiving prematurely. It was validating for me to read that right now, as I do find myself trying to get past the anger by understanding--and that's quite a similar thing, isn't it. I need to sit with my feelings a bit longer. Thank you.
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liz
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 15:35:28 GMT
Post by liz on Nov 6, 2018 15:35:28 GMT
Thank you for this wise article, I finally read it, I confused and mixed up the two Anger threads, sorry! I feel much better now about waiting a bit longer to process my feelings about my old friend. I need to digest it a bit longer.
I still don't understand why she did it, perhaps she can be really ignorant of the implications?
The most obvious answer is via Occam's Razor - she knows, but she has reached a point of antipathy with me despite knowing the truth and actually supports his side.
It is more painful than the recent DA breakup, as it's an old friend I cherish.
I wonder... how many posters here would do what she did, and what would be your motivation? It is an honest question to understand her actions, because I really feel confused and I am experiencing cognitive dissonance.
My friend went through a horrible divorce as her ex husband mismanaged his company and went bankrupt. Fortunately, her family is wealthy, so she is able to return home, live comfortably and work for her family business.
I tried to help them reconcile in the beginning as I know her husband quite well, he is the older brother of another old school friend, but it was in vain as he went into hermit mode. I always stood by her through the divorce and her subsequent single life.
So this is confusing to me, why would she like the NPD ex knowing what she knew?
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Edit to add that my own anger pattern for really deep hurt is to brood about it, try to be objective to see if the situation merits the anger, and after a short period (perhaps too short) upon arriving at the conclusion that the other party is at fault, I will communicate to the other party about it. If no apologies are forthcoming, I will re-evaluate the relationship, either to forgive or distance myself. The problem with this is that in the past, I forgave too readily and it was taken advantage of by the NPD ex and kept incurring huge losses to myself. I had no idea about Personality Disorders and what it means to be entangled. Anger can be an important signal - sometimes it is justified and protective, other times, it can be signs of deep disorder, as the BPDs and NPDs I've known are an incessant well of anger. So I will now advise that forgiveness should come with the caveat of open eyes and deeper knowledge about the other party.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 17:20:31 GMT
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Post by alexandra on Nov 6, 2018 17:20:31 GMT
So to stay on the anger topic but go a little off topic from the discussion already here, as an AP, I would usually focus all my anger at myself... for not doing everything perfectly enough and perceiving that's why my partners would leave, usually without even bothering to explain themselves to me so never giving us a chance to work on things or offering confusing and petty reasons that didn't seem to make sense. Anger for not being enough that they'd tried to communicate or stay to work on the relationship at all, even when things were actually majority good even if not 100%. Of course I know now this was happening because all of my partners were also insecurely attached.
But now that I'm earned secure, the anger is still at myself. There are times that I think about it all, and I can't believe that every time I abandoned myself right along with them abandoning me. For multiple decades. My fault or not (you're put in the circumstances that make you insecurely attached, and as an adult you can make the choice to work out of it), it still sucks to see the negative impact doing that has had on my life. There's some really cool, vibrant things about me that probably wouldn't be the case if I hadn't been AP, but in this area there's a lot of anger when I am putting in effort to do things differently now and can't accomplish goals I am running out of time for. I'm not usually angry in general, and there's nothing I can do about any of the past stuff now, but that's anger stuff that I think is specific to insecure attachment.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 17:28:35 GMT
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Post by alexandra on Nov 6, 2018 17:28:35 GMT
liz, it can take a lot for people to understand that NPD basically can't grow or change. Maybe there are exceptions for the very rare NPD who can, but there's a lot of experts who won't even try to treat NPD because they just get manipulated and there's zero progress. I have a friend with an NPD father and even well into her 30s she hopes he can change though sometimes she gets some clarity now that he never has and maybe won't. For those without the disorder, it's just hard to understand how someone can be so pathological and incapable of change, and the rescue/ growth narratives we get in our pop culture, movies and TV shows that anyone can change if they try, doesn't help that perception. (This is why I like BoJack Horseman so much because their plot treatment of the actual difficulty of people with deep issues changing is very realistic.) If your friend appreciates that the NPD ex is improving himself, then she sounds like she's a positive person who doesn't get it. To your point, doing fancy travel with someone else's money who didn't give it to him indicates he's making nothing more than superficial changes and is the same person as before. And if this is the case, it's back to considering what boundaries you need to feel comfortable continuing the friendship, even if it's not as close as it was before.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 18:14:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 18:14:38 GMT
I'm back!! (name change)
anne12 - great posts as usual!
Anger is something that APs / FAs can find very difficult to express or often even recognise in themselves. We weren't allowed to express anything, let alone anger, so we learnt to bury it. When you truly wakeup and the deep, deep hurt turns into anger, you know you are on the way forward - but not so much anger at yourself (forgiveness and self-compassion is needed here), rather anger at others, if temporarily. As one of anne12's links explain, depression is repressed anger. Learned helplessness is an AP thing.
What I learnt was that once I really saw the truth and became angry at the others (the narcissists, bullies, etc), you are more clearly able to see the truth of yourself, where you are - and stop justifying. Stop people-pleasing and being nice - it doesn't gain you friends, you lose them - but you the learn who the real ones are (maybe only 1 or 2) or make new (real) friends.
I woke up and saw just how many people I had thought were good friends / nice were actually just using my niceness to keep me in a place that benefitted them. It's usually about some form of power. Some of the 'nice' ones, I saw were actually pretty un-nice, but I'd never recognised it before. I saw how many 'friends' / people didn't like me when I started to change for the better - it threatened them.
That friend isn't a real friend - respect yourself and cut them loose. Get angry at them, if only in a journal. Express that anger healthily and move onto true friends.
When you start to see the truth, you learn to recognise at the start who might benefit from any AP-ness and you become less AP and more Secure.
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liz
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Posts: 71
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 19:30:32 GMT
Post by liz on Nov 6, 2018 19:30:32 GMT
liz , it can take a lot for people to understand that NPD basically can't grow or change. Maybe there are exceptions for the very rare NPD who can, but there's a lot of experts who won't even try to treat NPD because they just get manipulated and there's zero progress. I have a friend with an NPD father and even well into her 30s she hopes he can change though sometimes she gets some clarity now that he never has and maybe won't. For those without the disorder, it's just hard to understand how someone can be so pathological and incapable of change, and the rescue/ growth narratives we get in our pop culture, movies and TV shows that anyone can change if they try, doesn't help that perception. (This is why I like BoJack Horseman so much because their plot treatment of the actual difficulty of people with deep issues changing is very realistic.) If your friend appreciates that the NPD ex is improving himself, then she sounds like she's a positive person who doesn't get it. To your point, doing fancy travel with someone else's money who didn't give it to him indicates he's making nothing more than superficial changes and is the same person as before. And if this is the case, it's back to considering what boundaries you need to feel comfortable continuing the friendship, even if it's not as close as it was before. Thank you for such calm, wise words. Thank you rockgirl, for the fighting words!
You're right, no one in my circle understood NPD, gaslighting, projection, cheating, etc., so i just described the abusive words and actions to my friends who helped me through the relationship in the past. I'd strongly advise anyone not to explain NPD to someone who isn't capable of understanding it, as it is confusing and perplexing, and makes you appear crazy because it really is a crazy toxic dynamic.
It is very hard for me to imagine myself in her shoes, as I see this as so black and white, well, legally it is. This training is really for him to hang out with the jet set finance/IT sector type young executives, as they go to competitions all over the world several times a year, held at luxury resort locales, to stay for at least a week at 5 star resort hotels, get ayurvedic massages, etc. on his social media. Gear alone costs US$50,000. It hurts so much, as I love travel, he never took me anywhere, and now he is using my money to travel and spoil his girlfriend. But I can tell that this anger/hurt is due to knowing that someone is vicious, and not because I miss the NPD ex in any way. I believe anyone in my shoes would be upset for a long time. Getting some justice done might help, certainly.
Obviously my friend doesn't see it this way, and I'm torn between agreeing with her right to like his posts and her loyalty to my suffering as her oldest friend. I don't hate her, but feel hurt and sore inside, like anger firmly locked down by a part of me that remembers her good side.
My usual way of recovery from anger is to brood, digest, and one day I see the funny, absurd, ironic side of it. That's been quite the panacea for me!
Like you, rockgirl and juniper said, I might consider distancing for now to protect myself. Perhaps one day my heart will return to this friend.
Thank you again!
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 19:44:03 GMT
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Post by alexandra on Nov 6, 2018 19:44:03 GMT
liz, try not to dwell on him spoiling his girlfriend. He's doing this to get her hooked. She'll go through the same or worse than you, and probably be blindsided by it. You're better off because you're already out of it and through to the other side. It's terrible he will put others through this, but he'll also never be anywhere close to happy so everyone loses.
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Anger
Nov 7, 2018 0:13:19 GMT
Post by leavethelighton on Nov 7, 2018 0:13:19 GMT
Anger has its role. I think of all this as similar in proceso to the stages of grief (Kubler-Ross model) where you rotate through denial, bargaining, anger, etc. in the long journey towards acceptance. I don't think it's linear-- we ping pong around them sometimes. And it is a form of grief, the loss of someone in our lives, or of a relationship, or what once was. I think in that sense we need to embrace anger as part of the process. Trying to suppress it would backfire. That doesn't mean you should take it out on the other person necessarily, even if it is justifiable given your particular circumstances...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 9:30:51 GMT
Anger has a huge role as it is a higher-level energy than shame-laden depression and enables movement and change. Whilst it it is healthy to express that you ARE angry, expressing that anger AT / TOWARDS another is not healthy. (Passive aggression is NOT expressing anger healthily!). There are many ways to express that anger energy, which when expressed will then help you move forward.
It is interesting that when emotions are suppressed and compliance allowed, anger is seen as the only real expression there is and therefore not allowed - anger is often a cover for a whole host of other feelings. I.e., the more you express (healthily) your anger, and the more you learn about what you are truly, actually feeling (and start to see that in others), the more you move forward.
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Anger
Nov 7, 2018 10:25:57 GMT
liz likes this
Post by goldilocks on Nov 7, 2018 10:25:57 GMT
Is there kindness. Is there honesty. Is there apology. Is there fidelity. Is there respect.
Would any of us say that AP/DA/FA attachment styles de facto preclude that in emotional relationships? One step further: Would we say that only aware APs/DAs/FAs are capable of these things? That something like a third of the world population is not able to deliver these things in a relationship, unless with a secure? When I step outside trying to understand the dynamics of my own recent relationship and think about the relationships of others I know, that is simply not what I see. I see a range. I see examples of good behavior and bad behavior in all attachment styles.
So, this brings me to the question of when do we hold the partner accountable, instead of simply understanding everything in the context of attachment. Or more specifically, where do we draw the line, in viewing ourselves and our partners, between "I understand that I/my partner emotionally reacted so [was clingy/withdrew/ran away]" and assigning responsibility to ourselves/our partners for good or bad behavior, choices made in how one person treats the other, simply put. What's the role of ethics here? And anger, when behavior is unkind, dishonest, disrespectful, etc. I would say that when one is unaware, one may be limited in ability to express kindness, honesty, fidelity or respect, and apology does not undo what is done. When I was less aware, even if I intended to be honest, I deflected questions. I would share a limited amount of myself, as it felt too vulnerable to let another in too deeply. I have felt more deeply connected to partners after earning security and have since treated them with more kindness and respect. I have felt kindness and respect even when unaware, but at the time, I lacked skill in expressing my feelings and had wounding around the connection. Wether I could or can deliver these to satisfaction is of course very much dependent on the needs of the partner in question. This is not a matter of good and bad, but of compatibility and personal preference. If I can provide x, and you need 4x, I am not meeting your needs and notbody is wrong, we are simply incompatible. Unaware AP and DA are overwhelmingly incompatible with one another. In my opinion, we hold the partner accountable when he or she has repeatedly failed to meet an explicit commitment.If your wife agrees to buy groceries for the family for 800/month and she is consistently spending over 1000, that is shitty behaviour. If your husband agrees to cook 5 healthy meals every week and half the meals are fast food, that is shitty behaviour. This happens in many marriages and has nothing to do with attachment style. For less purely practical responsibilities, there may be an interaction between attachment style and ability to meet commitments. If a DA wife agrees to live with you and is spending almost every weekend on the boat by herself, that is shitty behaviour. It is her responsibility to either refrain from making that commitment or to meet it most of the time. "We have agreed to live together and spend most weekends together. I have noticed you spent 4 of the last 5 weekends on the boat. Why is this happening? What is needed for you to meet the commitment you have made?". If an AP husband has agreed not to call you excessively when you are meeting with friends, and he is calling you during almost every social and networking event, that is shitty behaviour. It is very much okay to express anger in an appropriate way. "I am at my friend's house supporting her through the loss of her sibling. This is the second time you are interrupting what I intended to be an undisturbed conversation. I feel angry when you do this, as you have agreed to refrain from calling excessively and this is impeding my ability to show up for a friend". Of course, not every little detail can be part of your vows or your defined responsibilities, but there must be a shared set of values that behaviour can be compared to. If we only make commitments we intend to keep most of the time, which are in alignment with our values, it is useful for us when our partner holds us accountable. It does take healthy boundaries to refrain from making commitments that are not in line with our values, and it takes courage to make the commitments that are in line with our values and discipline to generally keep them. This also means that before marriage or cohabitation, there need to be some deep conversations about shared values and shared goals. There also need to be regular conversations about how we can live according to these values and meet these goals.
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Anger
Nov 7, 2018 13:21:51 GMT
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Post by epicgum on Nov 7, 2018 13:21:51 GMT
Anger has a huge role as it is a higher-level energy than shame-laden depression and enables movement and change. Whilst it it is healthy to express that you ARE angry, expressing that anger AT / TOWARDS another is not healthy. (Passive aggression is NOT expressing anger healthily!). There are many ways to express that anger energy, which when expressed will then help you move forward. It is interesting that when emotions are suppressed and compliance allowed, anger is seen as the only real expression there is and therefore not allowed - anger is often a cover for a whole host of other feelings. I.e., the more you express (healthily) your anger, and the more you learn about what you are truly, actually feeling (and start to see that in others), the more you move forward. Could you give an example of this? Is it enough to acknowledge to yourself that you are angry, so you need to express "this makes me angry" calmly, or do you need to yell, punch pillows etc. (Either alone or as a display in front of others)
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Anger
Nov 7, 2018 14:08:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 14:08:24 GMT
Hi Epicgum
Yes - punching pillows, etc - you need to physically express it, really express it. Lots of methods (pillow bashing, screaming in the car on a motorway, writing a note and putting it in a trainer then going for a run on it, BodyCombat, Boxercise are a few examples - journalling aggressively also works). Otherwise the energy is still festering inside of you, repressed and contained (or will come out in other, unhealthy ways).
If someone has overstepped, tell them calmly that you are not happy, that they did whatever (fact) that you felt (feeling) as a result (using the "I" method). Stay calm, any reaction will just fuel the fire either side), walk away, then go and express the anger somewhere / somehow it will not hurt anyone else.
It has taken me years to go through this process, as I was incredibly 'nice' ... incredibly! I still am 'nice', but I can also tell people where to go now, if they deserve it. I have respect for myself - and have always had respect for others, but it is real respect now (not people-pleasing respect).
When you stop people-pleasing, you stop pleasing people - so be prepared that you will lose 'friends' when you go through this process. Remember that another person's response to what you express is their response, not yours - others may blame you, shame you or direct their (defensive) anger back at you, but that is their issue.
Cannot recommend the Hoffman Process enough to help you (you spend a day bashing the *$%^ out of pillows), although I did it many years ago and it took a lot since then to get me to really change / awaken to to the truth (there's more to it all, but that's in a nutshell) Plus self-respect / self-love and recognising what you are actually feeling / expressing yourself fully. Those are the antidotes to attachment issues.
This is the only real way out of attachment - it's all about Power being exerted by one over the other. When you see the little games that are constantly played - even on this forum - you see who is trying to gain power over whom and which types are most prone to that ...
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