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Post by faithopelove on Dec 24, 2018 2:27:28 GMT
I can't tell you how great all your responses are. So much good insight and truths in them. And I also appreciate the validation, too, that in some ways I am doing better post-DA than maybe I have given myself credit for--despite my angst about being hijacked by anxiety by this new online guy. I read all the responses above more than once. Thank you, thank you, for your thoughts and experiences and taking the time to reply. And, I totally agree on the need to meet asap before I end up with some extended weird fantasy pen pal thing. He popped up again after the weekend and I texted, "do you want to try again to meet this week?" He said yes, we'd meet this week, but would have to get back to me on where and when. I half expect him to disappear (my history speaks), half expect him to come through (his consistency speaks), and I am pretty sure he's meeting others online, too, so--I put it out there and now am just waiting to see. You know, this whole thing makes me reflect again on my DA ex, who is still taking up brain space--it's just like he lives in the back of my mind at this point, a constant but pretty quiet presence as there is nothing new to think about since we no longer have any kind of relationship. He no longer causing me anxiety except when I anticipate (or react to) running into him (we work in the same building, as I have said). But I find myself referencing thoughts about him, almost on a subliminal level, every day. And what I have been thinking recently is how, really truly, the way we interacted is not the way things need to be for me because the contrast with this online still-in-the-realm-of-fantasy man is so striking. This new guy --and I have no idea what his attachment style is--texts me everyday at 10 am or so. If I text and he doesn't respond to me for a bit, he apologizes for the late response. If I say something nice, he shows appreciation and thanks me. He expressed regret without any prompting that he couldn't meet me last week. Nothing intense, low key--it strikes me as amazingly un-selfconscious. It feels almost shocking to me, as so very different from my DA. And even as I love how easy this online things feels this far, it makes me feel compassion for my DA ex. Such compassion. I can't tell you. I know how awful my AP-ness is for me, but this new guy is kind of giving me a new line of sight into the experience of my DA as a DA, and how very hard our relationship was for him, too. Yes, just be careful and tread lightly bc as far as the guy online who seems attentive with his responses....you don’t know him well enough to know his attachment style yet. Based on my experience with my ex DA and many others who have posted here, it seems the avoidants have a way of showing up great at first- even heartily pursuing, and then months later their true colors show. I’m sure you’re very much aware of this- just wanted to remind you as you compare your ex to this guy. I plan on observing a guy’s words and actions for months before I think about forming an opinion of their security or lack thereof. Guard your heart. |
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 24, 2018 2:30:22 GMT
boomerang, as the others are posting here, everything you're saying is very common for APs. I cycled like this for years and years and years. The trick ends up being that it's usually not about the person triggering you, especially if you barely know them, even if it feels strongly like it is about them. There's a lot of fantasy and projection going on, and hoping that this new person will make you feel good and meet your needs. This means the attention you're getting is a form of external validation that feels stabilizing to your sense of self and self-esteem. When an AP then perceives the risk of rejection, and abandonment, it gets coupled with feeling that stabilizing self-esteem ripped away, and boom! You're triggered and can't self-sooth. But it is actually about you, not other people (assuming whoever is triggering you isn't abusive). It is great you're recognizing how this feels for you and that you don't even know this person so it is an overreaction to the situation. It's an overreaction to him, yes, but not to whatever issues in your past caused your AP style to form. Your nervous system is being overstimulated and hijacked. Try to be patient and forgiving with yourself on that end and not beat yourself up for your reactions. Meditating and finding other ways to interrupt the thought pattern and sooth your overactive nervous system may help in the moment. Leaning in to listen to your body and exploring the underlying fears that are driving the response is good too (while taking care not to fall into a negative self-loathing talk track). Unfortunately, I never found anything to eliminate being triggered completely besides healing my attachment wounds. But as I learned my body's pattern of responses to being triggered and how long that usually lasted and tried to figure out how to calm down instead of beating myself up, coupled with generally trying to heal my AP through work when I wasn't triggered, triggering became less frequent over time. Building your own sense of internal self-esteem and true self-acceptance will help speed this process along as well. Great insight, Alexandra- wondering...are you in counseling to help with the AP? Just curious about the methods you’re using to help with your growth and healing because it sounds like you’ve learned so much are doing really well. I went to therapy for 7 months and then stopped over the summer. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 24, 2018 6:31:52 GMT
Great insight, Alexandra- wondering...are you in counseling to help with the AP? Just curious about the methods you’re using to help with your growth and healing because it sounds like you’ve learned so much are doing really well. I went to therapy for 7 months and then stopped over the summer. No, I didn't do this through therapy. I read and read and read and had endless real life examples to learn from between me and my friends lol, so I eventually figured it out. I also had the flexibility in my life to make some major changes and take more control over certain areas, such as in my career, and it took making pretty major changes for me to really get anywhere. Not everyone has that flexibility, especially if they already have a family to support. But I talk more about about how I earned secure in this other thread: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1262/attachment-style-self-help-suggestionsI usually do advocate having a therapist help, since I am not one and don't know if what worked for me would work for everyone-- but the right therapist with the right specialties not just any random one. Probably would have made my journey a lot faster. |
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Post by Lizzie on Dec 24, 2018 10:54:03 GMT
I used to think I need to get in charge of me and my own life 100% but this is not the path to true healing. We can only do so much for ourselves and we heal through relationships. We need to be very careful when letting people into our lives. No avoidants whatsoever, at least in the beginning and for years. None. If they are close relatives or coworkers, let them into your life only for a very limited time (like minutes). It sounds harsh but necessary, though.
Thing is, we need to have safe relationships to overwrite those neural pathways in our brains. Physically. Otherwise these strongly formed paths just lie dormant and will activate again, it is only a matter of time. Choose people over loneliness but choose very wisely - this is a recipe. Practice safe and trustworthy relationships again and again.
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Post by boomerang on Dec 24, 2018 18:06:30 GMT
I just don't know what is on the other side of it. I have only three responses to anger in my toolkit: being actively angry (which I am now), hardening/indifference (my avoidant side), and forgiveness/acceptance. Understanding is the only path I know to that last one, which is where the excuses come in. Is there another way? Help me. So there is another option I can think of immediately, and it's related to the hard work of healing AP. AP doesn't know how to self-soothe and emotionally regulate on their own. They cling in hopes that others will be able to regulate for them. You are actually doing that throughout your last couple of comments. Each of the responses you listed in your toolkit is completely in deference to the other person (staying angry AT THEM, hardening/avoiding THEM, forgiving/accepting/understanding THEM). Even though it's your emotion, you're actually excluding yourself from the equation and still putting management of your emotion onto how the other person may respond to your response. And you've asked for help here, which, hopefully you don't take offense because none meant and it's good to ask for help when you're trying to learn something new, but look at the way you've said it and what that may tell you. It isn't help you learn how to help yourself, it's a short and maybe child-like external ask, "Help me." So, another option is to own your anger, figure out what it is indicating is wrong (what about the situation has really upset you, what about your environment is wrong in this situation, what need wasn't met), and forget the other person. How do you provide whatever is needed to fix it for yourself? Instead of forgiving the other person, maybe instead start with trying to understand and forgive yourself. Instead of feeling like the person making you angry has more important needs than you do which are being met while yours aren't, remind yourself that your needs are important too and deserve to be met -- and then take steps on your own to do that. If you can start to build up your own ability to accept yourself, where you're at and how you feel, to understand yourself, and to take ownership of your own feelings and build your self-esteem, you're going to find your perspective on the anger shifts. Thanks for the above, Alexandra, I really appreciate your thoughts and observations, and I am going to keep thinking about this. For sure, the emotional self-regulation is at the heart of everything. Everything that is wrong with my reactions (out of proportion, can't let go, obsession, anxiety, etc.) comes down to that. I am a lot further along than I was in April when I discovered attachment theory, but I am only at a certain point--not where I want to be/where I hope to get.
I also agree with Lizzie that the path to healing includes healthy relationships that rewire. I am no longer in any sort of relationship with my DA, but have no healthy alternative to replace him with. I think that's where a lot of people on these boards feel a frustration--doing lots of self work, seeing progress, but you can't quite get to where you want to be--or know that you are where you want to be--until you can get into a healthy relationship. But that isn't easy for everyone to find for various non-attachment related reasons (location, age, etc). But, I do think that is essential to really getting healed.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 24, 2018 19:57:41 GMT
I also agree with Lizzie that the path to healing includes healthy relationships that rewire. I am no longer in any sort of relationship with my DA, but have no healthy alternative to replace him with. I think that's where a lot of people on these boards feel a frustration--doing lots of self work, seeing progress, but you can't quite get to where you want to be--or know that you are where you want to be--until you can get into a healthy relationship. But that isn't easy for everyone to find for various non-attachment related reasons (location, age, etc). But, I do think that is essential to really getting healed. Being on the other side of this work and secure, I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion, because this implies APs still want a romantic relationship to save them. It isn't a matter of replacing your ex/romantic relationship with another secure romantic partner to earn secure, it's a matter of creating a secure relationship with youself and feeling truly comfortable either being in a romantic relationship or not. Feeling like a complete person if you're on your own, not expecting the partner to heal you or complete anything, but appreciating the enhancement that comes into your life if/when you find a healthy partnership. (This is also where the technique some therapists use of helping you learn to reparent youself / inner child work comes into play.) When I was talking about making big life changes, it wasn't about taking control of my entire life to get it in order, it was about taking steps to build my trust in myself through making decisions and facing challenges on my own and either succeeding or accepting that failure isn't that big a deal and can be learned from. That focus on myself plus having secure interactions in my life, even though none were with romantic partners, helped me grow. One of the big reasons therapy is recommended for insecure attachment issues is, if you have never had ANY secure relationships -- attachment figures, friendships, anything -- a therapist can help provide a model for what that looks like. But you don't specifically need a ROMANTIC partner for this during your healing process and, in fact, may be better off without one until you're ready to be a better partner youself. However, having other secure examples, through therapy, friends, members of a community group, or whoever, can help you learn both better boundaries and to give and receive love in a healthier way without creating new baggage for you or for a new romantic partner you're "working out your issues" on. If you read juniper's old threads about how she earned secure, she had a similar perspective and did not actually find herself in a secure romantic relationship until she was secure and ready. Even though she was DA, the principles are the same even though the traits manifest differently. But she'd found other secure interactions before then, including with a close friend who became a mother figure. I do agree with Lizzie not to date more avoidants. However, once you've gotten far along in the process, you're not going to find their behaviors attractive anymore anyway because you'll feel like you deserve someone more present. |
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Post by Lizzie on Dec 24, 2018 20:13:35 GMT
To second alexandra, I was not talking about romantic relationships either or the need to be rescued by anyone. I was talking about building any kind of safe relationships to rewire the system that has been working for so long. This brain stuff is real, these neurons fire without us doing anything particular. It needs a focused effort to rebuild the whole system.
P.S. it is very clear from her posts that despite declaring so juniper is not secure, she knows how to take these tests but this is not the topic for today.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 24, 2018 20:20:05 GMT
I'm not here to get back into the issues that caused several people to depart, and we can disagree on whether or not juniper had earned secure. She may not have known how to securely interact with APs, but I recognized a lot in how her descriptions of her thought patterns changed and her perception of secure relationships and what she was looking for changed to match my experience in these areas. So I still think there's value in her descriptions of her own process, even if the threads in which she interacts with APs can feel uncomfortable.
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Post by boomerang on Dec 25, 2018 1:09:39 GMT
I don't know that I agree with not needing a healthy romantic relationship to get fully rewired--if that is where the AP behavior manifests (as it does with me).
I have spent most of my adult life not in a romantic relationship and have in other ways been able to get my needs met, other than sexual intimacy and the loneliness of living alone (which is not necessarily a romantic loneliness, though that, too--I love having people around and present in my home life. In an alternate reality, I live in the "village" and have a passel of kids all coming and going, doing their own thing, coming home to roost). I have super secure and long term friendships and close and secure relationships with several family members. Including with men. It's when male romantic rejection enters the picture that I become crazy --specifically, not being lovable to men (as my AP-ness does not manifest either in my close and friendly work relationships with male colleagues). So, it's very specific, what sets off my AP behavior, and it does not manifest in other areas of my life. I am working on the root causes of this, with my core attachment figure as well as other life experiences which all underlie this in therapy and totally need lots of inner work here. But the point is, I do have and live the model of secure relationships of total trust and acceptance and knowing I am valued and loved outside this area.
So to Lizzie's earlier point, in this context, because I have not completed the inner work on this on the root causes AND because I do not have a positive and "lived" model in this one regard, when the possibility of a romantic relationship pops up, the underlying pathways, lying dormant, fire up again. It destabilizes my usual happy and confident and pretty independent self and elicits really extreme reactions. Hence this thread--
So, I do think that that the final and necessary piece of the puzzle, for me at least, is being in a healthy romantic relationship. When I am ready and have done sufficient work on the underling attachment issues, of course.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 25, 2018 2:27:45 GMT
Everyone's process is their own. If that works for you, it works for you. I was just suggesting you not frustrate yourself with the narrative and expectation that your healing can't be complete without a partner. You will eventually be enough for youself through your own work, and then your dating dynamics will also change for the better and make it easier to find someone secure.
My AP mainly manifested in romantic relationships, too. Extreme stress or extreme avoidants in friendship could trigger it too, but pretty rarely. That's why I kept hearing from everyone I know that nothing was wrong with me, I just have the planet's worst dating luck. They said it in earnest, but eventually I decided it couldn't be true, and it ended up being all the unconscious insecure attraction dynamics at work.
Anyway, hang in there!
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Post by Lizzie on Dec 25, 2018 9:55:04 GMT
boomerang, I get it. For me it has also been about family and friends. I tried 40 years (!!!) to build a relationship with my mother but she just does not see me. My father left the family when I was about 3 years old, he was a father to my brother but failed at all promises given to me. I cannot say I have picked friends well either. My story is about not being accepted as my true self by anyone (except my dog  . So my area of failed relationships is very broad but this is just me. I once read from one article written by a trained psychologist that APs might have several romantic relationships where the attachment system does not get activated and think they are secure but these are not real relationships because APs are not truly invested in them, not attached to these persons (just not into them, so to speak). And then comes the One who reveals the truth. This happened to me. I had several relationships, I was able to leave people without looking back until I wasn't. I am in mid 40s. While I have a very clear idea what I want from the romantic relationship, this ship has sailed for me. Perhaps this is why I concentrate on everything else as well - to have a rich and fulfilling rest of my life. And above all else, to let my kids have their entire life like this. So I practice vulnerability and courage to be me. This should repel all avoidants and it does. ) Even if I do not ever find my people, at least I am not adding the wrong people and do not strengthen the patterns that have failed me so far. But loneliness and being a fortress is not my goal. The difference is very subtle. We all need other people, we just need to choose people that are good for us or at least do not harm us. |
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. So my area of failed relationships is very broad but this is just me.