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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 13:30:57 GMT
This goes both ways. I also want you to be yourself, but I guess minus the shutting down? Does that then mean I don't want you to be yourself if I ask you to not shut down? Because when you shut down, it seems like you are trying to control things to by distancing, and it's takes away me feeling like I can be myself. I am happy to give you space if you need and want that, but if you shut down and don't tell me that, I am left to guess or assume you do, and no one wants to assume things, right? Seems it comes down to no one communicating clearly because of what we think the other is feeling, a shit show all around. And I didn't mean YOU, mrob. I meant you, the FAs in my life...
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Post by mrob on Jan 9, 2020 15:49:07 GMT
This goes both ways. I also want you to be yourself, but I guess minus the shutting down? Does that then mean I don't want you to be yourself if I ask you to not shut down? Because when you shut down, it seems like you are trying to control things to by distancing, and it's takes away me feeling like I can be myself. I am happy to give you space if you need and want that, but if you shut down and don't tell me that, I am left to guess or assume you do, and no one wants to assume things, right? Seems it comes down to no one communicating clearly because of what we think the other is feeling, a shit show all around. I don’t actually like that feeling of freeze and shut down. It’s paralysing. I feel like every bit of energy is gone but I need to get out of there somehow, and worse, be calm. It’s not enjoyable. It’s massively inconvenient. Also, there have been times where I’ve been able to see that it’s a disproportionate reaction, I must be crazy. No sane person would do this. Round and round and sink deeper.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 17:54:52 GMT
This goes both ways. I also want you to be yourself, but I guess minus the shutting down? Does that then mean I don't want you to be yourself if I ask you to not shut down? Because when you shut down, it seems like you are trying to control things to by distancing, and it's takes away me feeling like I can be myself. I am happy to give you space if you need and want that, but if you shut down and don't tell me that, I am left to guess or assume you do, and no one wants to assume things, right? Seems it comes down to no one communicating clearly because of what we think the other is feeling, a shit show all around. I don’t actually like that feeling of freeze and shut down. It’s paralysing. I feel like every bit of energy is gone but I need to get out of there somehow, and worse, be calm. It’s not enjoyable. It’s massively inconvenient. Also, there have been times where I’ve been able to see that it’s a disproportionate reaction, I must be crazy. No sane person would do this. Round and round and sink deeper. You're not crazy, you're just triggered, like the rest of us :-D So if you or anyone else could help me out, I think I am understanding this freeze state the more I read about it, because I think it's what happened to me a few weeks before my final breakup: After getting back together for two months in which everything was going great, he deactivated again. I knew I would hear from him at some point, and I did a week later, which I know isn't bad at all after reading about other instances here. I knew what was going on so I left him alone until I heard from him. We saw each other again for the weekend which was our usual, and then again he deactivated. Again I left him alone, but it was harder that time, because I didn't know when I was going to hear from him again. I didn't know if it was going to only be a week like that last time or two weeks, or a month, I just knew eventually. When I finally did hear from him, his text was asking me what I was doing, which was his way of saying he wanted to see me. It was jarring to me, and my body went into a heightened state, what I felt at the time was a frozen panic - there were so many thoughts running through my head - relief to hear from him; extreme anger that he was just dropping in out of the blue with no explanation for pushing me away for an indefinite amount of time; the nonchalant manner of the disappearing/reappearing; what I should respond, or even if I should respond and when, so many things. I sat for a good while before I did respond. It was an hour, maybe two before I felt myself calm down from that (frozen?) state, and my response was that I was declining to meet up because I had had mouth surgery two days before and the side of my mouth was swollen and in pain, all true. But I was also really angry that he had been shut down and that he, my partner, wasn't available to me two days before when I was going to have this surgery for him to even know about it. It felt so disconnected and I felt like we really just don't even know each other since we are so disconnected. The actual physical response felt like a wave of heat going up my body to my head, the hairs on my body standing up, heightened sensitivity to touch to the point I wanted to JUST.SIT and not move because it was too jarring to move. I don't remember if there was rapid blinking or no blinking, but it was one of the two. I was aware of the physical response, but my thoughts weren't really focused on that, it was on all the thoughts running through my head. So, does that sound like going into a freeze state? And if it is, it's not fun at all. It felt like a mild panic attack, which is why I needed to just sit there and not move, I needed to ground myself physically for the moment, although I may have also gotten up at some point and paced around, I don't remember. The last time I remember feeling near that way was when I had post-partum depression, the first and last time I had been depressed. I was having panic attacks at the time but I didn't know what was going on, because I'd never had them before. A really dark time in my life.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 18:04:39 GMT
This goes both ways. I also want you to be yourself, but I guess minus the shutting down? Does that then mean I don't want you to be yourself if I ask you to not shut down? Because when you shut down, it seems like you are trying to control things to by distancing, and it's takes away me feeling like I can be myself. I am happy to give you space if you need and want that, but if you shut down and don't tell me that, I am left to guess or assume you do, and no one wants to assume things, right? Seems it comes down to no one communicating clearly because of what we think the other is feeling, a shit show all around. I think you have a good point here. If the FA was just walking away completely, it wouldn’t be a matter of control. But the FA shuts down and maintains a level of control but stays in the relationship. Remember though not all of this is a conscious choice. However I will say, from my experience, even in freeze moments, I’m very much able to communicate. For me, it’s been easier to do so remotely (text). I’m well aware that I have a certain level of responsibility. And I measure that by the status of the relationship. The more time and intimacy, the more responsibility I have to the person. What I don’t owe the person though is solving his emotional problems and taking on the role of his therapist. It’s likely rare that someone does this consciously but many do it unconsciously. Ultimately you can’t truly have complete sovereignty if you are in a committed relationship. Even if you are in casual situations, there is still another person involved and you cannot have true sovereignty. True 100% sovereignty means being completely alone. Yes, remembering that shutting down is not a conscious choice I think has been one of the hardest things to understand, as I am not a person who likes to shut down. I may for a bit to calm myself, but it wouldn't be for days or weeks if I knew someone was waiting for a response from me. Like you said, I feel like I have a sense of responsibility to others, so just not responding is not an option, unless someone has really offended me in an obvious way, which in that case I am purposely not responding. And I agree, no one should be anyone's therapist which is why the idea of bringing up the whole attachment thing was so fraught for me. I didn't want to seem like I was diagnosing him or otherwise telling him what/who he is, even though I DO know him better than he knows himself. But by the end of the relationship, I was just trying to save myself at that point, I just didn't have enough in me anymore to help him. I felt depleted and discouraged. So back the the sovereignty thing, you're right, we have a responsibility to each other. I think it is completely achievable in a relationship for the parties to maintain their sense of identity and individuality without feeling overtaken by their partner or the relationship, it's just a matter of tweaking it out with each other, refining it as things go along, basically continually communicating to each other what each other needs, knowing you are safe with each other. At least that's my idealized version in my head of what's a healthy relationship.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 18:36:52 GMT
I don’t actually like that feeling of freeze and shut down. It’s paralysing. I feel like every bit of energy is gone but I need to get out of there somehow, and worse, be calm. It’s not enjoyable. It’s massively inconvenient. Also, there have been times where I’ve been able to see that it’s a disproportionate reaction, I must be crazy. No sane person would do this. Round and round and sink deeper. my response was that I was declining to meet up because I had had mouth surgery two days before and the side of my mouth was swollen and in pain, all true. But I was also really angry that he had been shut down and that he, my partner, wasn't available to me two days before when I was going to have this surgery for him to even know about it. It felt so disconnected and I felt like we really just don't even know each other since we are so disconnected. And I just wanted to clarify that I only said the part about my mouth in pain, I didn't go into being angry with him or any of that. My reply was strictly matter of fact about why I couldn't go see him.
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addict
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by addict on Jan 9, 2020 20:31:17 GMT
It doesn't, though. Being a sovereign person doesn't mean taking the lead or making the decisions. It means not feeling manipulated... not feeling like the partner's words and actions don't line up (she says she's okay not seeing me tonight or with whatever I decide about something but it doesn't actually seem true... maybe I'm being manipulated and eventually it will turn into controlling and oh, now I'm alert and frozen and triggered and fleeing). It also means not being expected to provide more than can actually be comfortably given. That's why direct language, that's honest and aligns with action, is the smoothest. The partner knows what you want and trusts you're being honest in intention, and then has space to choose how to respond. It doesn't eliminate general (unaware) FA triggers coming from themselves and fear of vulnerability and intimacy and commitment, though. I think most partners of avoidants experience the silent treatment, ignoring, and ghosting in response to assertive and direct language. It hurts and traumatizes them, so they stop asking for what they need, or choose when they ask carefully. The silent treatment is usually seen as form of control and abuse for this reason. If someone is learning to be assertive for the first time, a person who punishes them with the silent treatment is the wrong person to `grow' with. The right person is someone communicative, empathetic, and non abusive IMO. This truly is the most informative thing I've learned so thank you for your wise words
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 9, 2020 20:36:33 GMT
I didn't want to seem like I was diagnosing him or otherwise telling him what/who he is, even though I DO know him better than he knows himself. I won’t argue you here cause I can never get close enough to your situation to do so, but I will say I’d be highly offended if anyone ever said this to me or thought it of me. If he wasn’t communicating his inner thoughts to you, I’m not sure you can know this. Or ever really. As you would have read potentially, I bit the bullet recently, 2 weeks ago almost, no reply still. I had to disclose what I thought was going on, the poor girl I know is in pain and suffering, with multiple health issues now. And I can see the abuse from her father and her ex. husband running her down still to this day is having an effect. I couldn't stand and watch idly by, regardless of "offending" her or anything else. I actually fear for her ongoing health which is already bad. If said in a loving way, I don't see the issue with it personally. I mean if it's blunt and direct, literally saying I think you're definitely this, without asking them what they think about it and if they wish to talk about it and offer your help in anyway in future, that is rude. But from a place of compassion and wanting them to get better, my god I couldn't not say something to try and help.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 9, 2020 20:51:21 GMT
As you would have read potentially, I bit the bullet recently, 2 weeks ago almost, no reply still. I had to disclose what I thought was going on, the poor girl I know is in pain and suffering, with multiple health issues now. And I can see the abuse from her father and her ex. husband running her down still to this day is having an effect. I couldn't stand and watch idly by, regardless of "offending" her or anything else. I actually fear for her ongoing health which is already bad. If said in a loving way, I don't see the issue with it personally. I mean if it's blunt and direct, literally saying I think you're definitely this, without asking them what they think about it and if they wish to talk about it and offer your help in anyway in future, that is rude. But from a place of compassion and wanting them to get better, my god I couldn't not say something to try and help. No that’s not what I meant. I mean someone in general telling me or thinking they know me better than I do. If you are familiar with attachment theory and you introduce me to it, that’s a different matter. Letting me know that my behavior seems to reflect patterns in X attachment style is not at all an indication you know me better than I do. It’s just external knowledge I don’t have. This comes back to a control issue. Trying to get all of the information and know how on me in order to bring me to an outcome you find to be reasonable. When I didn’t ask you for this. If someone has such severe issues that they are on the verge of suicide or something, then that’s what the professionals are for. Most people who don’t ask for help don’t want to be helped. Even if they objectively need it. And you can’t do much for them unless they help themselves some. I understand, that would almost come across as judgemental, "gaslighting" potentially at it's worst, almost Narcissist in nature, with little empathy displayed. And I agree, look I even dwelled on it for quite some time, and took the risk, I thought it was worth it if it helps her, said as much to her, full open disclosure.
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Post by serenity on Jan 9, 2020 21:08:55 GMT
As you would have read potentially, I bit the bullet recently, 2 weeks ago almost, no reply still. I had to disclose what I thought was going on, the poor girl I know is in pain and suffering, with multiple health issues now. And I can see the abuse from her father and her ex. husband running her down still to this day is having an effect. I couldn't stand and watch idly by, regardless of "offending" her or anything else. I actually fear for her ongoing health which is already bad. If said in a loving way, I don't see the issue with it personally. I mean if it's blunt and direct, literally saying I think you're definitely this, without asking them what they think about it and if they wish to talk about it and offer your help in anyway in future, that is rude. But from a place of compassion and wanting them to get better, my god I couldn't not say something to try and help. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Both of my FA exes have apologised to me for their behaviour at various times. One told me he considered himself a `monster' for how her treated me, and the other thought he was `crazy' and must be a bad person. You can just imagine the weight of shame for someone with these issues who doesn't know why they have them. In both cases I just explained how I saw it from a mental health perspective, that I didn't think it made them `bad', and its not their fault. I said I sure understand about Trauma and C-PTSD , I know its a struggle handling triggers, and I can recognize it in others because I struggle with triggers too. If anything, it deepened trust in my freindships with them.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 9, 2020 21:17:14 GMT
As you would have read potentially, I bit the bullet recently, 2 weeks ago almost, no reply still. I had to disclose what I thought was going on, the poor girl I know is in pain and suffering, with multiple health issues now. And I can see the abuse from her father and her ex. husband running her down still to this day is having an effect. I couldn't stand and watch idly by, regardless of "offending" her or anything else. I actually fear for her ongoing health which is already bad. If said in a loving way, I don't see the issue with it personally. I mean if it's blunt and direct, literally saying I think you're definitely this, without asking them what they think about it and if they wish to talk about it and offer your help in anyway in future, that is rude. But from a place of compassion and wanting them to get better, my god I couldn't not say something to try and help. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Both of my FA exes have apologised to me for their behaviour at various times. One told me he considered himself a `monster' for how her treated me, and the other thought he was `crazy' and must be a bad person. You can just imagine the weight of shame for someone with these issues who doesn't know why they have them. In both cases I just explained how I saw it from a mental health perspective, that I didn't think it made them `bad', and its not their fault. I said I sure understand about Trauma and C-PTSD , I know its a struggle handling triggers, and I can recognize it in others because I struggle with triggers too. If anything, it deepened trust in my freindships with them. Yeah mine, with no awareness, said she knows she's always pulled away, and "her family doesn't understand it" (really? An abusive father telling his daughter she's shit and not good enough no matter how hard she tries? Hmmm. Totally dysfunctional, and I'm starting to think a clingy codependent mother) and she apologised to me and said she never wanted to hurt me in any way. So she does have empathy which is good. I noticed she has tried to riggle out of taking responsibility for her own actions (inappropriate boundary type stuff and white lies) and this is linked no doubt to being made feel guilty/shame over almost any action she's done, therefore setting loose boundaries and not understanding.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 9, 2020 21:52:12 GMT
caro, you can just ask him if he's familiar with attachment theory as you think it may help him in his struggle with depression, as that's true. You don't need to tell him in context of your relationship. Like, if you get a handle on your AP, it's going to really help you with anxiety and stress. It's not like the FA patterns don't contribute to discomfort and depression. Some FAs here have certainly mentioned they have some struggles with that as well, and understanding attachment then gives some more insight into what they're struggling and dealing with.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 22:07:13 GMT
I didn't want to seem like I was diagnosing him or otherwise telling him what/who he is, even though I DO know him better than he knows himself. I won’t argue you here cause I can never get close enough to your situation to do so, but I will say I’d be highly offended if anyone ever said this to me or thought it of me. If he wasn’t communicating his inner thoughts to you, I’m not sure you can know this. Or ever really. Keep in mind that someone disappearing, even an avoidant or FA, doesn’t necessarily mean they are in this state every time. I say this because I think many times we look to excuse the other person’s behavior. Back to that responsibility thing. Like in everything, there should be some form of balance. I keep saying on here that some people just have shitty behavior. Yes, I didn't bring it up to him because I didn't want to offend him and further put pressure on our crumbling relationship, and that is why I felt like I had no choice but to leave the relationship. He was unaware, and I was no longer able to bear the relationship as it was. But I do think I can say with authority to myself that he is an avoidant and matches all the patterns of a Fearful Avoidant that have been described and talked about in all the literature and here. So in that way, I do know him better. But that doesn't mean I feel superior or otherwise look down on him in any way because I don't. The only reason I think that he may have been in a frozen state while deactivating is because of mostly what I've read, and we also had a discussion here about how time goes by differently when a FA is engulfed or deactivating. I am giving him a little bit of a pass because I know for the most part he wasn't trying to hurt me, but yes, I agree that we do have a responsibility to each other and he probably took my patience a little bit too for granted.
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Post by Helsbells on Jan 9, 2020 22:20:26 GMT
I won’t argue you here cause I can never get close enough to your situation to do so, but I will say I’d be highly offended if anyone ever said this to me or thought it of me. If he wasn’t communicating his inner thoughts to you, I’m not sure you can know this. Or ever really. As you would have read potentially, I bit the bullet recently, 2 weeks ago almost, no reply still. I had to disclose what I thought was going on, the poor girl I know is in pain and suffering, with multiple health issues now. And I can see the abuse from her father and her ex. husband running her down still to this day is having an effect. I couldn't stand and watch idly by, regardless of "offending" her or anything else. I actually fear for her ongoing health which is already bad. If said in a loving way, I don't see the issue with it personally. I mean if it's blunt and direct, literally saying I think you're definitely this, without asking them what they think about it and if they wish to talk about it and offer your help in anyway in future, that is rude. But from a place of compassion and wanting them to get better, my god I couldn't not say something to try and help. I feel your being to understanding if you dont mind me saying. I too have suffered so much abuse in my life but I dont allow that to treat others in the way I have been treated. You sound like a lovely man but come on, shes an adult and some off us have been thru so much shit but can still show up if we want to for our loved person.
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Post by Helsbells on Jan 9, 2020 22:26:30 GMT
As you would have read potentially, I bit the bullet recently, 2 weeks ago almost, no reply still. I had to disclose what I thought was going on, the poor girl I know is in pain and suffering, with multiple health issues now. And I can see the abuse from her father and her ex. husband running her down still to this day is having an effect. I couldn't stand and watch idly by, regardless of "offending" her or anything else. I actually fear for her ongoing health which is already bad. If said in a loving way, I don't see the issue with it personally. I mean if it's blunt and direct, literally saying I think you're definitely this, without asking them what they think about it and if they wish to talk about it and offer your help in anyway in future, that is rude. But from a place of compassion and wanting them to get better, my god I couldn't not say something to try and help. I feel your being to understanding if you dont mind me saying. I too have suffered so much abuse in my life but I dont allow that to treat others in the way I have been treated. You sound like a lovely man but come on, shes an adult and some off us have been thru so much shit but can still show up if we want to for our loved person. Stop calling her the poor girl she is a women for goodness sake. I wont reviel my whole story here because it isn't pleasant but I still know how to show up and be present for the people I truly love. Your wasting your time on her please believe me.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 9, 2020 22:31:38 GMT
I feel your being to understanding if you dont mind me saying. I too have suffered so much abuse in my life but I dont allow that to treat others in the way I have been treated. You sound like a lovely man but come on, shes an adult and some off us have been thru so much shit but can still show up if we want to for our loved person. Stop calling her the poor girl she is a women for goodness sake. I wont reviel my whole story here because it isn't pleasant but I still know how to show up and be present for the people I truly love. Your wasting your time on her please believe me. Oh believe me Hels, there are boundaries . While i'm mindful and empathic, I wont be used/abused. Totally agree with you
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