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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2020 5:17:19 GMT
I think FA have a strong sabetour that probably jeopardises romantic relationships...they don’t feel deserving or worthy so find ways to end them before they may get hurt or the partner realises how bad they really are? Not just FA. AP may do this as well, when paired with someone more secure or more anxious.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2020 5:25:58 GMT
This is soooo fascinating. When you say confusion about passage of time, can you elaborate on this? Is this linked to forgetting childhood, kind of like a suppression of memory as a survival mechanism? Do you think this is why they cycle; because after say a month or two of disassociating they come out of it not having a sense of how much time has lapsed, and maybe not processing their feelings in that time? Just, childhood memories can be hazy and inconsistent. Chronology doesn't always make sense. It can be related to coping mechanisms (issues with memory tend to happen with abuse) or a lot of the FAs in my life tend to be pretty disorganized people so it follows they don't always remember things well because they're scattered. There's some research around that correlates ADD with FA as well. But no, I don't think that's why they cycle. The cycling is related to the amount of time they need to calm their nervous system down from whatever triggered them (which sounds backwards, as they've deactivated, but it still needs to reset). Though I'd agree they may not have processed yet. And to mrob 's point, sometimes the trigger is a real and direct reaction to the situation. It's not always projection or overcoupling, even if the attachment stress makes it difficult to communicate about it directly.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 7, 2020 5:29:48 GMT
This is soooo fascinating. When you say confusion about passage of time, can you elaborate on this? Is this linked to forgetting childhood, kind of like a suppression of memory as a survival mechanism? Do you think this is why they cycle; because after say a month or two of disassociating they come out of it not having a sense of how much time has lapsed, and maybe not processing their feelings in that time? Just, childhood memories can be hazy and inconsistent. Chronology doesn't always make sense. It can be related to coping mechanisms (issues with memory tend to happen with abuse) or a lot of the FAs in my life tend to be pretty disorganized people so it follows they don't always remember things well because they're scattered. There's some research around that correlates ADD with FA as well. But no, I don't think that's why they cycle. The cycling is related to the amount of time they need to calm their nervous system down from whatever triggered them (which sounds backwards, as they've deactivated, but it still needs to reset). Though I'd agree they may not have processed yet. And to mrob 's point, sometimes the trigger is a real and direct reaction to the situation. It's not always projection or overcoupling, even if the attachment stress makes it difficult to communicate about it directly. ADD listed under "Freeze" response as shown {edit} taken from CPTSD: Surviving to Thriving book {edit} You have to read the whole chapter on each breakdown of these, these are traits that "may" appear to be linked. Only "some" have potential ADHD if influenced moreso by "Flight response" as an example, not all. It may appear to come across that way. So don't take these literally. Just an extract from the book, and if you would like to learn more, it's around US$10 on amazon to purchase the kindle ebook, kindle is a free download. Attachments:
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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2020 5:40:34 GMT
I can personally relate to the critical self voice, negative self talk, and talking myself out of being good enough for things. I used to do this basically 24/7, and just up until recently have shifted and only do this a much smaller percentage of the time. So I get that part of it. Frankly, nothing worked for me until I learned the root of it through attachment theory. No amount of previous therapy, working out, venting to friends, meds, etc — nothing worked. I can even relate to general avoidance... but what I can't personally relate to is the extreme avoidance and shut down after intimacy. I guess maybe I could get it if something was so good then I'm thinking "oh once they get to know me, they'll abandon me"? But I don't get the engulfment piece... so it's hard for me to think about how a nice compliment or follow-up would be repulsive. (as that's what I'm gathering it might feel like for FAs?) For example, knowing my FA has this deep inner critic (like I have had for most of my life, maybe his is worse?) and knowing he's struggling esp about work — it's hard for me right now to think texting something like "hope today being back wasn't too painful" would be repulsive and engulfing. My guess is that anything is engulfing because of expectations or just overall? Or would it? Am I misunderstanding? It's possible that they associate compliments or something nice with someone wanting something. Maybe a parent was only nice to butter the child up for a controlling ask, or was only complimentary when the child was doing exactly what the parent wanted (conditional love). Coupled with low self-esteem, ie this nice thing can't be true about me so what's wrong with them for thinking that? Something must be wrong with them if that's sincere, or it's not sincere and they just want something from me... it can all feel gross. But not at a conscious level. Remember, AP and FA both distrust self, but FA also distrusts others.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2020 5:43:51 GMT
I know my FA having flight and freeze. Which is funny because I was initially going to say ADD/ADHD.
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Post by serenity on Jan 7, 2020 6:03:37 GMT
The engulfment trigger is something I have read being about violated boundaries in childhood, like when an abused/neglected mother spousifies her son and puts her excessive adult needs onto her son. It can also be a result of sexual abuse in the physical sense.
I've known guys like this, and the ones who feel most easily engulfed, tend be lower on natural empathy. The ones who are only `a bit sketchy' about engulfment were higher on natural empathy and could be taken over by their mothers in adulthood.
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Post by mrob on Jan 7, 2020 7:54:22 GMT
The engulfment trigger is something I have read being about violated boundaries in childhood, like when an abused/neglected mother spousifies her son and puts her excessive adult needs onto her son. It can also be a result of sexual abuse in the physical sense. I've known guys like this, and the ones who feel most easily engulfed, tend be lower on natural empathy. The ones who are only `a bit sketchy' about engulfment were higher on natural empathy and could be taken over by their mothers in adulthood. Even in context! Ouch!!!
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Post by serenity on Jan 7, 2020 7:57:00 GMT
The engulfment trigger is something I have read being about violated boundaries in childhood, like when an abused/neglected mother spousifies her son and puts her excessive adult needs onto her son. It can also be a result of sexual abuse in the physical sense. I've known guys like this, and the ones who feel most easily engulfed, tend be lower on natural empathy. The ones who are only `a bit sketchy' about engulfment were higher on natural empathy and could be taken over by their mothers in adulthood. Even in context! Ouch!!! Oh sorry! I'm so lame sometimes.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 7, 2020 14:13:22 GMT
Seemingly it's totally linked to the 'flashbacks' ("triggers" that an F-A does not identify with until self aware), which in turn instigates the critical inner voice (low self esteem, negative self talk, literally talking themselves out of the relationship anyway they can) and is tied to whichever of the 4F response combinations you identify with due to the trauma experienced, one or more of these will be instigating responses as opposed to a blend of all 4F responses to a stimuli. Same happened to me, chased me for 15 months via mutual friends, was all over me 8-9/10 attraction level, was talking about the future etc (but was also negative self talking herself openly with low self esteem at the same time), was fawning after me (cooking stuff and bringing it around, 10-20 texts a day etc was very over the top in the beginning), then after I tried to sit calmly and talk about the negative self talk in a centred way, that was the first signs of pullback, then an excuse she had her kids for a month with no days off and was flat out (meanwhile was literal 'people pleasing' strangers running after them), which I questioned after 3 months of dating and said 4 weeks not seeing each other was not really acceptable. We went out to dinner with mutual friends that introduced us, and the next week she blamed her ailing health and that she wanted to work on herself and catch up again in 3 months time hopefully. The more I learn, the more I realize that I can't get into a relationship in the future unless I know that someone is either secure, or is doing work on themselves. I cannot go blindly into anything without knowing how they cope in relationships, because clearly the beginning of the relationship is fine for an avoidant, but the last thing I need is to meet yet another person who deactivates months down the line because of the unhealed trauma and lack of awareness of themselves, just can't do it again.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 7, 2020 14:32:26 GMT
Just, childhood memories can be hazy and inconsistent. Chronology doesn't always make sense. It can be related to coping mechanisms (issues with memory tend to happen with abuse) or a lot of the FAs in my life tend to be pretty disorganized people so it follows they don't always remember things well because they're scattered. There's some research around that correlates ADD with FA as well. But no, I don't think that's why they cycle. The cycling is related to the amount of time they need to calm their nervous system down from whatever triggered them (which sounds backwards, as they've deactivated, but it still needs to reset). Though I'd agree they may not have processed yet. And to mrob 's point, sometimes the trigger is a real and direct reaction to the situation. It's not always projection or overcoupling, even if the attachment stress makes it difficult to communicate about it directly. ADD listed under "Freeze" response as shown {edit} taken from CPTSD: Surviving to Thriving book Here is a very interesting thread from partners of individuals with ADD. It asks whether they would date/marry their ADD partner again knowing what they know now... www.additudemag.com/forums/topic/if-you-could-go-back-in-time-and-do-it-all-over-again-would-you/#post-134017of course every person is different and some of these sound very extreme. I have been following this page since I started dating B because he said he was diagnosed with ADD. You will have to scroll to the top of the page as it seems to link to the end.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 7, 2020 15:31:42 GMT
ADD listed under "Freeze" response as shown {edit} taken from CPTSD: Surviving to Thriving book Here is a very interesting thread from partners of individuals with ADD. It asks whether they would date/marry their ADD partner again knowing what they know now... www.additudemag.com/forums/topic/if-you-could-go-back-in-time-and-do-it-all-over-again-would-you/#post-134017of course every person is different and some of these sound very extreme. I have been following this page since I started dating B because he said he was diagnosed with ADD. You will have to scroll to the top of the page as it seems to link to the end. Thank you for that article. It's enlightening, but also makes me feel bad for all parties involved. Also, while I have been very grateful to learn all that I have in this forum, I realize it can be triggering for me, and I too can get overwhelmed by all the information, new terms to look up, etc. My brain gets overloaded and I need to step back a bit. But I appreciate everyone's input and honesty here.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 7, 2020 19:43:53 GMT
Thank you for that article. It's enlightening, but also makes me feel bad for all parties involved. Also, while I have been very grateful to learn all that I have in this forum, I realize it can be triggering for me, and I too can get overwhelmed by all the information, new terms to look up, etc. My brain gets overloaded and I need to step back a bit. But I appreciate everyone's input and honesty here. No worries nyc, I hope i'm not triggering/hurting anyone in here, not the reason I posted obviously, only purely to try and help. I'll remove if required. Goes for anyone else here, let me know if i'm stepping over the line. It's a good book that, very enlightening though. It's just a pure extract table of "possible" more negative displays from those 4F responses, there is also a positive displays table, and he breaks them down in more detail. Just an overview.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 7, 2020 20:53:19 GMT
Thank you for that article. It's enlightening, but also makes me feel bad for all parties involved. Also, while I have been very grateful to learn all that I have in this forum, I realize it can be triggering for me, and I too can get overwhelmed by all the information, new terms to look up, etc. My brain gets overloaded and I need to step back a bit. But I appreciate everyone's input and honesty here. No worries nyc, I hope i'm not triggering/hurting anyone in here, not the reason I posted obviously, only purely to try and help. I'll remove if required. Goes for anyone else here, let me know if i'm stepping over the line. It's a good book that, very enlightening though. It's just a pure extract table of "possible" more negative displays from those 4F responses, there is also a positive displays table, and he breaks them down in more detail. Just an overview. No please, this wasn't for you to apologize for, and it absolutely wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular, rather, all the information on this site alone; there are days of information to absorb! This was just me as someone who is not only working on myself, but also thinking about the person in my life, my most recent FA, and how all the things I am learning applies to him, as well as the ex before him. It's a lot of information to take in when I only learned about all this last summer. I am able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together with all the info, but it's also a lot. All the info here explains so much which is great, but it's also heavy and sad as it's so much that a partner alone cannot help with these deep rooted issues and traumas. Please continue posting information as you see fit. It is knowledge and education that we don't learn in school, but it's kind of the most valuable information out there, how to relate to others.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 7, 2020 20:57:35 GMT
No worries nyc, I hope i'm not triggering/hurting anyone in here, not the reason I posted obviously, only purely to try and help. I'll remove if required. Goes for anyone else here, let me know if i'm stepping over the line. It's a good "You have someone sitting in front of you who likes you for you, finds you attractive, wants to hang out with you and get to know you better, wants to hold your head if you cry and listen — at any and all points and about anything, who gets and isn't afraid of the facing the dark side, and who you ask to be your girlfriend and who you say gets you, is beautiful, smart, etc. I don't want to go anywhere and I won't unless you tell me that's what you want (and you mean it)... but when you push me away it makes me feel like you don't want me around even though I'm pretty sure that's not true." then another thought/same thing, not to say/send to him just writing out: "Let's start with being you as you are today as I like you for that, being comfortable in that and then moving towards whatever ideal version of yourself you want to be. I'm saying this to myself too, as for me, I always want to be perfect and never feel even close to that" I don't know if that would be helpful to say to him, and I might in some form, at some point, etc — but it's nice to get it out here. That's exactly how I feel. This is really everything in a nutshell for those who love FAs. It's so simple for us, but it seems too much for them though there is a part of them that wants exactly that. The internal system doesn't allow them to have what they want. It's a no win situation which is makes me very sad for the ones who are unaware.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 7, 2020 21:12:40 GMT
No worries nyc, I hope i'm not triggering/hurting anyone in here, not the reason I posted obviously, only purely to try and help. I'll remove if required. Goes for anyone else here, let me know if i'm stepping over the line. It's a good book that, very enlightening though. It's just a pure extract table of "possible" more negative displays from those 4F responses, there is also a positive displays table, and he breaks them down in more detail. Just an overview. No please, this wasn't for you to apologize for, and it absolutely wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular, rather, all the information on this site alone; there are days of information to absorb! This was just me as someone who is not only working on myself, but also thinking about the person in my life, my most recent FA, and how all the things I am learning applies to him, as well as the ex before him. It's a lot of information to take in when I only learned about all this last summer. I am able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together with all the info, but it's also a lot. All the info here explains so much which is great, but it's also heavy and sad as it's so much that a partner alone cannot help with these deep rooted issues and traumas. Please continue posting information as you see fit. It is knowledge and education that we don't learn in school, but it's kind of the most valuable information out there, how to relate to others. No worries nyc, I personally am not here to cause drama or trouble (sometimes hard to tell over net/texting/messaging), and I think it's pertinent to ask others if what I am doing hurts them in some way, because I 'm learning as well, and better to be safe than sorry if you know what I mean. Glad I could be of help.
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