|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 9, 2020 1:17:51 GMT
Lol, we're hanging out tomorrow It did take me some self regulating to get out of protest mode, which I thought I was so much better about lately but  I was direct and didn't say anything like "do you want to hang out" Feels weird that that's better, because it feels more engulfing / controlling, but I guess if we're dating I'm suppose to assume he wants to hang out? I'm so confused lol. This AP loop / narrative is pretty powerful huh... This is about you as much as about him. I’ll switch that broken record on again. “avoidants don’t operate in a vacuum”. It takes two to tango. Two to push and pull. |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 1:18:29 GMT
Additionally, if he doesn't know yet, like if he has tentative plans that aren't confirmed yet, (based on my experience) he's likely not to answer until the last minute even though he didn't explain to you why. That's why extreme clarity is just easier. My ex was very much like this. It was so annoying at first, but then he got into a pattern and I got used to it, but it always annoyed me that I seemed like such a low priority. I feel like this ties back to the whole thing about time being different for FAs. Do you have more insight into this? Because I feel like he would get annoyed himself when others would do this to him, so why couldn't he see himself doing that and annoying to others, namely me? |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 1:22:17 GMT
This is about you as much as about him. I’ll switch that broken record on again. “avoidants don’t operate in a vacuum”. It takes two to tango. Two to push and pull. What would be your suggestion int this case? Because if someone takes the reins so to speak on planning things, doesn't that then make and FA feel engulfed? What's the solution for someone dating a FA who won't make hard decisions on meeting up? Or is the preference for the FAs partner to make those decisions, thereby taking the pressure off themselves to do it? I'm a little confused. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 9, 2020 1:35:54 GMT
Direct is best. Then I can shift stuff around.
I prefer to be regarded as a sovereign individual with the right to reply to messages and make arrangements as I see fit, without coercion. . I’m also aware that taking my time, feeling engulfed has consequences. That’s my responsibility to look after. My engulfment is my responsibility. Not yours.
This is the way I comfort myself when triggered anxious and the boot is on the other foot.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 9, 2020 1:45:13 GMT
nyc718, I don't think it's a time passage thing. I think it's one of a few things, or a combination: people pleasing (they don't want to say no and feel bad about it if they don't have to), being bad communicators / not wanting to have to answer for their whereabouts (it not occurring to them to say I may already have plans that may also fall through or I can shift so let me get back to you, and then maybe forgetting they didn't give you a response), and being disorganized or having troubling planning something outside their normal routines. I don't think it's intentional, it just is.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 9, 2020 1:57:48 GMT
nyc718, I don't think it's a time passage thing. I think it's one of a few things, or a combination: people pleasing (they don't want to say no and feel bad about it if they don't have to), being bad communicators / not wanting to have to answer for their whereabouts (it not occurring to them to say I may already have plans that may also fall through or I can shift so let me get back to you, and then maybe forgetting they didn't give you a response), and being disorganized or having troubling planning something outside their normal routines. I don't think it's intentional, it just is. Yes, I’ve had all of those reasons. It doesn’t come naturally to discuss every bit of what’s going on in the confines of my mind. I’ve had it where a partner has been really offended because I’d kept something big from them, which I just thought had nothing to do with them. Other times I’ve just been so engulfed that I’ve been a kangaroo in the headlights. Frozen. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 9, 2020 2:28:48 GMT
I’m dreadful at plans.
I would think no response means no, and get on with your week, trimming your sails as you see fit. I had an incident a couple of weeks ago where somebody was flip flopping after I’d made large travel arrangements. I ended up making alternative arrangements and had an unexpectedly fantastic holiday.
|
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 2:36:21 GMT
Direct is best. Then I can shift stuff around.
I prefer to be regarded as a sovereign individual with the right to reply to messages and make arrangements as I see fit, without coercion. . I’m also aware that taking my time, feeling engulfed has consequences. That’s my responsibility to look after. My engulfment is my responsibility. Not yours. Okay, so this is where I'm kind of confused. You say direct, then you can shift stuff around. And I've heard you also mention other times about being a sovereign individual, which leads me to think you don't feel like you are a sovereign individual somehow. But isn't replying to a message just basic etiquette? I don't really understand what you feel is taking that away from you. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by that.
This is the way I comfort myself when triggered anxious and the boot is on the other foot. This I don't really understand at all, I'm sorry if I seem dim. I'm not understanding what "this" is exactly that you mean is the way you comfort yourself when triggered anxious. Do you mean deactivating?
|
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 2:43:27 GMT
I’m dreadful at plans. I would think no response means no, and get on with your week, trimming your sails as you see fit. I had an incident a couple of weeks ago where somebody was flip flopping after I’d made large travel arrangements. I ended up making alternative arrangements and had an unexpectedly fantastic holiday. So if you asked someone about some plans and you didn't hear back, you would just assume that just meant no, and wouldn't feel like an actual text back to decline the plans would be more clear? I feel like not replying is not the same as flip flopping, but perhaps we are using the terms in different ways. Also, not replying to a text but then seemingly stalking social media is very mixed messages, am I wrong? It's like, my text is being ignored, but yet the person is clearly thinking about me because they're looking at my social media. I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm just trying to understand the mindset. |
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Jan 9, 2020 2:44:05 GMT
And he writes back within 5 minutes that the thing I’m doing is always good for Thurs (basically in his speak I take that as he wants to go but isn’t giving me a clear answer which is often typical). So I write back and give him the time and when I’m showing up. I'd take that as something positive , since he's said Thursdays are generally good to see one another (he's offering something consistent without you asking). But he's not locking either of you in, which is reasonable. |
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 9, 2020 2:44:23 GMT
I’m dreadful at plans. I would think no response means no, and get on with your week, trimming your sails as you see fit. I had an incident a couple of weeks ago where somebody was flip flopping after I’d made large travel arrangements. I ended up making alternative arrangements and had an unexpectedly fantastic holiday. So if you asked someone about some plans and you didn't hear back, you would just assume that just meant no, and wouldn't feel like an actual text back to decline the plans would be more clear? I feel like not replying is not the same as flip flopping, but perhaps we are using the terms in different ways. Also, not replying to a text but then seemingly stalking social media is very mixed messages, am I wrong? It's like, my text is being ignored, but yet the person is clearly thinking about me because they're looking at my social media. I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm just trying to understand the mindset. This definitely happened to me |
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Jan 9, 2020 2:51:01 GMT
I'd take that as something positive , since he's said Thursdays are generally good to see one another (he's offering something consistent without you asking). But he's not locking either of you in, which is reasonable. Well I wish he said that, but let me clarify - I said I was going to a happy hour at this restaurant. And he said “x restaurant is always good on Thursday nights” Doh! The vagueness ! |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 9, 2020 2:58:39 GMT
caro nyc718I think the issue with where this line of questioning is going is it's a walking on eggshells approach. You're assuming asking someone avoidant to hang out will cause engulfment and deactivation, and the asker feels fear or frustration in response. But unless you're constantly contacting someone and trying to guilt them into seeing you every day when they also want to have some independence to have things in life outside the relationship, saying hey, do you want to get together this week? Tuesday or Thursday would work best for me, how about you? shouldn't cause engulfment and deactivation. If it does, it's either not because of you and is the other person's problem, or it is because of a real issue with the relationship but it's some different problem that's deeper than just hanging out, and getting triggered by making plans is a symptom not the cause. So, you should just be reaching out if and when you want to, and not be worried if wanting to hang out is triggering. Because if it is so triggering that it causes more than a couple days of deactivation and there's so little foundational consistency that saying do you want to hang out tomorrow is leading to the other person questioning the entire relationship, then the relationship probably isn't a strong long-term bet anyway. If you have normal boundaries and are not being codependent or invading the other person's space by making them the center of your life and identity, then their triggering is theirs to deal with. You can still ask them what might make them comfortable and the best way to make plans, but they are adults too. You can be sensible, empathetic, and fair without treating them like fragile children (which is a romantic relationship imbalance anyway).
|
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 9, 2020 3:25:00 GMT
caro nyc718 I think the issue with where this line of questioning is going is it's a walking on eggshells approach. You're assuming asking someone avoidant to hang out will cause engulfment and deactivation, and the asker feels fear or frustration in response. But unless you're constantly contacting someone and trying to guilt them into seeing you every day when they also want to have some independence to have things in life outside the relationship, saying hey, do you want to get together this week? Tuesday or Thursday would work best for me, how about you? shouldn't cause engulfment and deactivation. If it does, it's either not because of you and is the other person's problem, or it is because of a real issue with the relationship but it's some different problem that's deeper than just hanging out, and getting triggered by making plans is a symptom not the cause. So, you should just be reaching out if and when you want to, and not be worried if wanting to hang out is triggering. Because if it is so triggering that it causes more than a couple days of deactivation and there's so little foundational consistency that saying do you want to hang out tomorrow is leading to the other person questioning the entire relationship, then the relationship probably isn't a strong long-term bet anyway. If you have normal boundaries and are not being codependent or invading the other person's space by making them the center of your life and identity, then their triggering is theirs to deal with. You can still ask them what might make them comfortable and the best way to make plans, but they are adults too. You can be sensible, empathetic, and fair without treating them like fragile children (which is a romantic relationship imbalance anyway). This is spot on, and it's what happened with my ex. In the end, she couldn't catch up for a whole month, clearly "engulfed", she actually said "overwhelmed" numerous times. I hadn't done or said anything bar questioned her inner negative self voice, and quite rightfully in a centred way brought up why there needed to be a whole month in between catch ups, like she clearly would have 10-15 minutes for me to go around and give a hug or whatever. It's pure unaware F-A distancing (as Mrob says, multiple reasons in his own mind, but clearly triggered by a deeper trauma, trust, unworthiness etc etc). I personally felt I was walking in eggshells, literally was pushing me anxious. I literally went "no contact" for 3 weeks, she reached out, then continued too weekly, then after week 3 I gave the ultimatum, I'm your lover not a friend to chat too basically, a pretty harsh boundary, but was tired of what I seen at the time as "games being played" not ever seeing or knowing what she may be going through, the only off putting thing was her attraction level and low self esteem, which doesn't correlate to games. But you're right, it leads to codependency and a fantasy bond in my mind. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 9, 2020 3:50:59 GMT
caro, I think your you-focused epiphany earlier is a more productive rabbit-hole to pursue atm. Because this is an aspect that, if you can really integrate the idea, will give you a much better approach to handling stress, and even eliminate a lot of what bothers you in life in general right now as things that don't even get to you anymore eventually. "Like basically the point is: my whole auto regulation is in a state of anxiety and this AP-rooted basis — and it's been driving every aspect of my life."
|
|
I was direct and didn't say anything like "do you want to hang out" Feels weird that that's better, because it feels more engulfing / controlling, but I guess if we're dating I'm suppose to assume he wants to hang out? I'm so confused lol. 