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Post by tnr9 on Apr 7, 2020 14:14:36 GMT
I sure could use some support. I posted my story awhile back, but the more read everyone else’s, the more I realize the details of mine don’t matter. Sadly, the throughlines are the same in our stories... variations of the same theme. Anyway, a couple months ago, I asked my FA that we not contact one another for one month. I told him if he attempted to, I wouldn’t reply. This was after a year of hot and cold and when confronted, he said he just wasn’t ready for a relationship and that he thought we were just trying to be friends for now. I told him if he didn’t know what he wanted/wasn’t ready after a year, then he wasn’t ever going to know. I also told him calling us friends wasn’t honest, as we were affectionate, cuddled and slept over, through we stopped having sex for what he claimed were religious reasons. Well, he insisted we not take time apart and said he wouldn’t be able to not reach out. We had tried no contact before, but neither of us could do it for more than a few days. He ended up texting me the next day and then three more times that month. I stayed strong. Then he left flowers for me and a note. I ignored. BUT then on the 30th day, we ran into each other and the cycle began again. He cried and said he started therapy because he realIzed he was losing out on me and even close relationships with other men as friends. I was impressed. So here I am, confused and anxious. I thought I could handle it this time — not take it personally and be patient. But I’m clearly not wired that way. He seems to make time for everyone except me. He has very low self worth and only hangs out with losers (addicts and adults without jobs or ambition). He told me he was a loser and always hung out with losers his whole life. I confronted him on why he seems eager to be around everyone but me. He said he needed to just limit our time together. So I began limiting my contact with him. He freaked out and started asking me what he did wrong. I just sent cordial texts. Then I ran into him. Ugh. Told him the situation was too confusing and hurtful to me. I told him just because he told himself we are just friends doesn’t make it true. I said we are getting closer with the pillow talk and cuddling and sleepovers regardless of the label. To his credit, he agreed.!I asked him that we take the summer apart so we just work on ourselves and we could be friends after. He said he didn’t want that. He said if he agreed, then I would date other men and he didn’t want that even though it’s unfair of him to feel that way. Asked to see me the next day to discuss. I acquiesced. But when the time came, he said was held up at work and could we reschedule. I haven’t replied. I really want to find the strength to stick to my summer apart. I know I can get over him by then. I could use some words of encouragement. But aside from all that, I would love help understanding this so as to not take it all so personally: 1. He seems to actively avoid spending time with me beyond once a week. And he is known for helping everyone in the neighborhood out, but he never extends it to me. Is this conscious? 2. Can someone explain how much of the FAs behavior is conscious? Do they even realize they’re avoiding and all? 3. He is 49 and been single for 12 years. Is not promiscuous. Only in three serious relationships — one with a cheater/addiction, the second wit an addict and the last was abusive and had mental health issues. All relationships were sexless. So I am far from perfect, but I am none of those things and sexually healthy and he has acknowledged this, but he won’t be in a relationship with me? He is a mess — depression, anxiety, adhd, physical ailments, can’t pay bills... and has said I’m too good for him. And like I said, all his friends are losers. It hurts my feelings that he committed to difficult women and chooses to spend time with unsavory friends and never makes time for me. 4. He is in therapy and pretty self-aware. He’s admitted he has intimacy issues and so on, but would it be safe to say the road ahead even with therapy is long and uncertain. He is already 50. Please wish me luck in moving on. He is so kind and when we do hang out, it’s special.. And he is able to have emotional conversations more so than other FAs described on this site so it gives me hope where I probably shouldn’t have any, But when apart, it’s as if I don’t exist to him. He doesn’t want to go out and only plans to see me once a week for dinner at his place and cuddling. And I will say when I held strong that month, within a week two, it was less painful to be out of contact with him than it was to deal with the inconsistent and disappointing erratic communications with him... Hi and welcome.....you are definitely not alone...the guy I dated that I suspect has FA attachment was also very kind, very caring, very loyal. I fell in love with his heart....and I am still in love with those aspects of him. But...he also had a history of short relationships, alcohol and drug use and money issues. I really thought it would be different with me. It took him 3 months and an almost break up (initiated by him) for him to call me his girlfriend, to introduce me to his family and friends. Everything was so last minute....texts along the lines of “what are you doing?” We spent most of the time just hanging out at my place, watching shows, eating take out...a few times we would go to a park. Even though we met at a church singles group...once he started seeing me he stopped going. It is almost 3 years since he broke up with me...just so many feelings about it still. I do wish you well....I think consistency is something that I will require in the future because that was a big gap in our relationship. |
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 7, 2020 20:45:06 GMT
Thanks helsbells and tnr9. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but there is comfort in knowing others have suffered these situations and came out the other side. Some days, I feel okay. Today I feel like it's too much to bear. He texted me about our final plans this Friday and it was loving so I felt good, but that was soon followed by confusion and second-guessing my decision to go no contact for six months after our evening together. Like I said, so many on this board have had their FAs ghost them or cheat on them and this is not my case. I keep second-guessing, asking myself if I should just be more patient for a little longer... Ugh. It feels so unbearable.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Apr 7, 2020 23:05:42 GMT
Thanks helsbells and tnr9. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but there is comfort in knowing others have suffered these situations and came out the other side. Some days, I feel okay. Today I feel like it's too much to bear. He texted me about our final plans this Friday and it was loving so I felt good, but that was soon followed by confusion and second-guessing my decision to go no contact for six months after our evening together. Like I said, so many on this board have had their FAs ghost them or cheat on them and this is not my case. I keep second-guessing, asking myself if I should just be more patient for a little longer... Ugh. It feels so unbearable. This is the penultimate question...and sadly, it has a largely negative outcome  . I can guarantee first hand, even if you hint at the condition, as others have said here, it still is unlikely people change. That subconscious programming way too strong and ingrained. Literally "the pain of staying the same must outweigh the pain of change", even then.....I would suspect people slip back into "old habits" |
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 11, 2020 5:04:01 GMT
I want to preface this update by saying I know what just happened was for the best and it confirmed my decision to move forward...
BUT despite understanding that intellectually, I am an emotional mess and am seeking insight on if and how being FA might have played a role in what happened tonight. If there are possible, “scientific” explanations I find it helps me process quicker as I am still trying not take it all so personally.
If you’ve read my story, I told my FA the situation was too confusing and hurtful and that I needed to go no contact for the summer and then we could be friends. He fought it and told me how he knew he’d regret not being ready for me, etc.
We agreed to one last night together for dinner and a movie. I texted him a couple days ago and asked he’s sleep over and cuddle like we always have. He enthusiastically agreed.
Today he texts that he’s so excited to see me. We have a wonderful dinner and movie. On the sofa, he doesn’t touch me which he always has before. I touch his leg but he doesn’t reciprocate so I stop. About an hour in, he finally puts his hand on my leg. I tell him playfully, “It’s about time.” A few minutes later, he withdraws any physical touch.
After the movie, he lingers for a bit and I say, “What next — another movie or what?” He says he is going to head home. I say, “I thought we were going to have one last sleepover?” He acts like that conversation never took place. I remind him of our exchange and I say, “I’m just sad about it ending so I thought it’d be nice to spend one more night.”
He gets a little grumpy and says, “I don’t want to think about this being the last time. I don’t know why we can’t still do this as friends. I always look forward to it. It’s upsetting and sleeping over and cuddling just drags it out and I don’t want to talk about it. I’m tired and want to go home.” We talk calmly about it and he eventually agrees to stay.
In bed, he’s not as touchy-feely as usual. He is an affectionate guy when we are sitting on a sofa or in bed. At one point, he finally touches my leg and comments how nice and soft my skin is, but then pulls away.
I try to keep cool, but I just start crying. Initially, he consoles me. Then we start talking about it which he was adamant about not wanting to do. He keeps saying he’s sorry and he shouldn’t have come on so strong. He said he thought he was ready but isn’t as he can barely take care of himself and daughter. Says he doesn’t want to be responsible for anyone or have someone rely on him.
I’m still crying. A mess. I say I respect that he told me sooner than later, even if his actions confused me a bit. He kept saying he was sorry and this is why he didn’t want to be with anyone so he wouldn’t hurt them. I assured him I thought he was wonderful and I took a risk and we’d be friends and glad we met after I have time away. I also emotionally rambled about how I just didn’t understand how it came to this and so on... I was definitely not helping my cause, but also don’t feel like that shouldn’t express myself.
Still crying. He’s pretty callous, which isn’t how he is all the time. He keeps apologizing and I say, “I take at least half the responsibility. I know we hit it off and we care for each other, but even before you said you weren’t ready, it was clear you weren’t and I chose to wait and see.” I also tell him he’s wonderful and I’m hurting but glad we met and I hopefully grew and learned from it. Told him we had some fond memories.
He starts saying he’s uncomfortable and cuddling and sleeping by me is wrong if it’s over. I tell him it’s what we’ve always done, it’s nice and it’s one last time. He gets more worked up and says I’m making him feel bad when I said it was clear he wasn’t ready before he told me and that being with him was a lesson.
I thought I was taking responsibility and reassuring him but he saw it as criticism.
He gets up and leaves. Turns around and coldly hugs me and thanks me for dinner. Says we’ll talk about it later. I ask him to stay. He keeps saying he’s uncomfortable. I let him leave.
I’m a mess.
So a couple times early in our relationship, he has done this. Stormed off at a misunderstanding (usually perceived criticism) and taken a few days and then calls me crying and shameful. BUT that level of behavior stopped... So why is it back now?!!!
Also, the other day, he was so good when we talked about the end. I expressed his feelings for me and it was clear he loved me and was sad about the end. Tonight, he is cold and hostile. Why?!
Lastly, he is always good about touching me when we watch tv and he loves to cuddle me. Tonight, anytime he would touch me or brush up against me, he’d pull back. At one point I told him he was making me feel like a leper. Why so cold tonight? Dinner was so nice and it seemed all was normal.
I guess I just don’t get why he wouldn’t want us to part on a pleasant, fond note... He has not been this directly cold and hostile to me since early on. We had seemingly gotten past that...
I’m a mess. BUT if he reaches out, I will not be responding to him until summer ends as I told him. I know my emotional state and talking about the end triggered him, but I told him I was willing to just let it go and sleep and he chose to end it like this. By the way, he has a history of this — left his church, his family, countless friends in this manner.
Help me understand please.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 11, 2020 7:27:56 GMT
confusednyc, I'm sorry you're hurting about this. I've also been in some similar kinds of situations when I was younger, which were very painful and which I now have an entirely different perspective on. I do think you were actually being somewhat unfair to him, though, and I'll try to explain from an AP mentality. I feel like you were possibly trying to artificially create a evening that you'd hoped would provide you with perfect "closure." You don't really want to let go, even though you know it's for the best and you have to. But if he'd change, you'd want to keep trying. Since that's not going to happen, you're actually trying to overly control the situation by staging this one last perfect night. The thing is, somewhere deep down I'm guessing that you doubt the validity of his feelings for you, like thinking if he loved you enough he'd try harder to make it work, because that's what you'd do if the situation was reversed. Since he isn't committing to you, you're seeing it as his feelings for you aren't that strong... so why then would he be distant in this situation and not participate in exactly the way you're hoping he will? This is the negative-self AP narrative. The reasons he can't commit have to do with him and not you. It doesn't reflect the magnitude of his feelings for you. It just reflects his capacity (or lack thereof) to be an emotionally available partner. So, in this situation, where you're probably assuming he doesn't care that much so why can't he just give you this perfect night, you're underestimating how stressful and upsetting it is to be with someone you care about who is telling you, "I'm going to disappear on you tomorrow." FAs have an equal fear of abandonment to APs. They just additionally have a fear of enmeshment when things get too intimate and then they distance. Just because he's distant when too close (which leads to him asking things like why can't we just have intimate nights like this as just friends? because he's trying to shift you to be at a lesser level that sounds less scary to him -- which never works because FA unfortunately often shift the goal posts due to their weak connection with themselves and inconsistent sense of identity) doesn't mean hearing that you want to be done isn't painful and triggering to him. He didn't want to stick around and be intimate because losing you is actually quite painful. He's getting abandoned, he's being implicitly told he's not good enough, he knows he's disappointing you, he feels shame. Now, you can't do anything about this, because the pain he's feeling has even more to do with himself and all the issues he had prior to meeting you than it has to do with the current situation. And this is the problem with insecure attachment styles. You can't have a straightforward relationship with someone insecurely attached, not AP, FA, or DA, because there's always layers and layers of attachment wounding on top of however you actually feel about your partner. And this attachment wounding existed prior and has nothing to do with the partner, though different dynamics and pairings can press different buttons. The pain you feel right now is likely tied to your own feelings of abandonment and that you tried to cope with the situation by controlling it (not knowing how to truly reach closure, so coping with it through attempts to construct it), but you couldn't control him. Now you're at a loss because AP lack the tools to emotionally self-regulate. They do this externally (another person, who you believe on some level is better than you, calms or triggers your feelings through what they say or do, because you derive worth from what they think of you). So the fear of abandonment and confusion and sadness springs up because you don't know how not to abandon yourself. The feelings and pain and sadness are very real, and I'm sure you care a great deal about him as well. But the way to start processing it fully is to understand that you need to focus on yourself. You need to sort through how to have your own back and not emotionally abandon yourself in order to process these situations in a healthier way. And healthier doesn't mean you no longer feel any pain!, but the pain isn't totally debilitating or overwhelming, and once it passes it actually isn't still stuck somewhere and projected / repeated in the future. Plus you stop taking on excess blame and framing everything as a direct rejection of yourself when it's truly that someone else also has their own problems. Apologies if this doesn't resonate and I'm way off and needlessly triggering you on top of you already being triggered by what happened. But looking way back now that I'm secure on my being AP in similar situations with avoidants, and having devastating nights and breakups like the one you're describing, these are thoughts that were not apparent to me then but can help reposition the entire narrative within yourself to better understand what's really going on at the core (the overwhelming-ness of your pain being more about you and your own attachment style issues than about him). And that eventually provides actionable ways to deal with and process these types of situations so you don't get stuck repeating AP patterns forever.
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 11, 2020 21:45:25 GMT
confusednyc , I'm sorry you're hurting about this. I've also been in some similar kinds of situations when I was younger, which were very painful and which I now have an entirely different perspective on. I do think you were actually being somewhat unfair to him, though, and I'll try to explain from an AP mentality. I feel like you were possibly trying to artificially create a evening that you'd hoped would provide you with perfect "closure." You don't really want to let go, even though you know it's for the best and you have to. But if he'd change, you'd want to keep trying. Since that's not going to happen, you're actually trying to overly control the situation by staging this one last perfect night. The thing is, somewhere deep down I'm guessing that you doubt the validity of his feelings for you, like thinking if he loved you enough he'd try harder to make it work, because that's what you'd do if the situation was reversed. Since he isn't committing to you, you're seeing it as his feelings for you aren't that strong... so why then would he be distant in this situation and not participate in exactly the way you're hoping he will? This is the negative-self AP narrative. The reasons he can't commit have to do with him and not you. It doesn't reflect the magnitude of his feelings for you. It just reflects his capacity (or lack thereof) to be an emotionally available partner. So, in this situation, where you're probably assuming he doesn't care that much so why can't he just give you this perfect night, you're underestimating how stressful and upsetting it is to be with someone you care about who is telling you, "I'm going to disappear on you tomorrow." FAs have an equal fear of abandonment to APs. They just additionally have a fear of enmeshment when things get too intimate and then they distance. Just because he's distant when too close (which leads to him asking things like why can't we just have intimate nights like this as just friends? because he's trying to shift you to be at a lesser level that sounds less scary to him -- which never works because FA unfortunately often shift the goal posts due to their weak connection with themselves and inconsistent sense of identity) doesn't mean hearing that you want to be done isn't painful and triggering to him. He didn't want to stick around and be intimate because losing you is actually quite painful. He's getting abandoned, he's being implicitly told he's not good enough, he knows he's disappointing you, he feels shame. Now, you can't do anything about this, because the pain he's feeling has even more to do with himself and all the issues he had prior to meeting you than it has to do with the current situation. And this is the problem with insecure attachment styles. You can't have a straightforward relationship with someone insecurely attached, not AP, FA, or DA, because there's always layers and layers of attachment wounding on top of however you actually feel about your partner. And this attachment wounding existed prior and has nothing to do with the partner, though different dynamics and pairings can press different buttons. The pain you feel right now is likely tied to your own feelings of abandonment and that you tried to cope with the situation by controlling it (not knowing how to truly reach closure, so coping with it through attempts to construct it), but you couldn't control him. Now you're at a loss because AP lack the tools to emotionally self-regulate. They do this externally (another person, who you believe on some level is better than you, calms or triggers your feelings through what they say or do, because you derive worth from what they think of you). So the fear of abandonment and confusion and sadness springs up because you don't know how not to abandon yourself. The feelings and pain and sadness are very real, and I'm sure you care a great deal about him as well. But the way to start processing it fully is to understand that you need to focus on yourself. You need to sort through how to have your own back and not emotionally abandon yourself in order to process these situations in a healthier way. And healthier doesn't mean you no longer feel any pain!, but the pain isn't totally debilitating or overwhelming, and once it passes it actually isn't still stuck somewhere and projected / repeated in the future. Plus you stop taking on excess blame and framing everything as a direct rejection of yourself when it's truly that someone else also has their own problems. Apologies if this doesn't resonate and I'm way off and needlessly triggering you on top of you already being triggered by what happened. But looking way back now that I'm secure on my being AP in similar situations with avoidants, and having devastating nights and breakups like the one you're describing, these are thoughts that were not apparent to me then but can help reposition the entire narrative within yourself to better understand what's really going on at the core (the overwhelming-ness of your pain being more about you and your own attachment style issues than about him). And that eventually provides actionable ways to deal with and process these types of situations so you don't get stuck repeating AP patterns forever. alexandra Wow. Thank you for taking the time to write such an insightful and compassionate response. It truly is helpful during this time. I do agree that I was trying to create the evening; however, I only expected it to be our normal Friday evening. And he and I discussed "ending on a nice note." Yes, I am not ready to let go, but I had every intention to follow through with the break, regardless of how the evening went and I had no illusions that he would somehow come around at this point. In my conscious mind, at least, I was resolute in the break and I felt that was demonstrated when he hung his head and said he wanted these evenings to continue as friends. In the past, I would give in and we'd start the cycle again. Believe me, I was tempted to do it again, but I caught myself. But you are correct in one aspect of this -- I was hoping for a different outcome in how he spoke about the end. And when he was callous and handling it differently than he did just the other day, I was triggered. And I was embarrassingly trying to "fix" things so the last night could be as I imagined. Thank you for helping me understand what might have been behind his behaviors. I was projecting how I thought it should end and so I was unable to understand his response. I kept thinking, "We've been spending Fridays like this for a long time and so what's the difference?" And, "The end is near, so why not cuddle and act per normal, because nothing is really lost and at least it's a nice ending." I feel foolish and even self-centered now that knowing him, I couldn't understand. It was hard though, the more I reassured him, the more he freaked out. Again, I guess I was treating it the way I would want it to be treated (words of affirmation and reassurance), but that didn't work for him. It was all made worse, because, without going into too much detail, the dinner was especially ideal this time. He and his daughter were so moved by the experience. It was not typical for them, but something the both said they always wanted. I do know (and have known), I need to work on myself. In fact, I have been for sometime and I was adamant about not dating for a long while after my last relationship, but unusual circumstances brought us together and we clicked and here I am. I also am struggling especially hard, because this is new to me. Typically, the men I've dated were suffocating. I would need space... but looking back, I am ashamed to admit that I think part of me was also testing their love by pushing them away to see if they'd fight for me. Now, I do need lots of time alone, so it wasn't solely that. Anyway, I never had to initiate texts or calls or dates. I rarely did and left it up to them. I spoke with an ex the other day and he joked about how the first few times we were intimate, I would just get up and say "Bye" and leave; about how I wouldn't leave anything at his house so he bought me a toothbrush, etc. When I was married, I suggested we live separately and we did. My most recent ex was an emotionally abusive narcissist and so that was the first time I experienced the other side of the "come closer, go away" cycle. Still, he wasn't like this FA guy. It was somehow less confusing. And I will note that all my serious relationships ended by ultimately destructive acts by the partners. I ended them all, but it was after drastic behaviors on their parts -- a lawsuit, drug addiction, abuse. So I meet this guy and with him being so gentle and vulnerable, I fall hard. He appeared the opposite of my narc ex and other exes who were s so self-consumed and loud and aggressive. He was so honest about his "deficiencies" early on and while maybe a red flag, I felt I could trust him since most my exes were full of themselves and mirrored me early on, etc. leading me to believe they were strong alpha men, when it was all bravado. My greater point is this, I feel like I was at least slightly fearful avoidant... but perhaps after experiencing dramatic relationship ends, narcissistic abuse, etc. I became more anxious? Or is it that being with an FA can make any insecure attachment anxious? I am wondering if I was just never "tested" because I always had suffocating partners. And I will say, with a few exceptions, even when my anxiety was triggered by my FA, I was very good at just mirroring his level of interest, so to speak. I would be eaten up internally at time, but it didn't manifest as blowing up his phone or anything like that. So I am okay about controlling my outward actions, but still not there as far as regulating my emotions internally. And the deeper issue is regardless of how it manifests, I ultimately blame it all on not being worthy or good enough to fight for as alexandra surmised. Thanks to everyone again. This board has been tremendous as I navigate this journey. |
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Post by serenity on Apr 12, 2020 5:43:05 GMT
Sending you love and hugs Confusednyc <3 This is such a daunting time for you, and you're being very level headed and brave. I've been through multiple deactivations and two final breakups with avoidant partners in recent years, and the pain felt brutal every time. But if this is any comfort to you at all, I can say when you've swung anxious as an FA, the pain usually hits you hardest for around 3-4 weeks, then there is a sharp decline after around a month. You will get through it, its just going to hurt hard for a bit, especially at first.
It really helps to get your mind set right while you're processing this, and in a lot of ways you already have. When you're processing feelings of rejection, remember that its the relationship closeness that he rejected, not you. And you are entitled to closeness in order feel safe, trusting, and loved. He rejected it because of his own issues only. He may not completely know this and you may feel a little bit of internalised shame, from things he did or said to avoid accountability (and his own shame). Try to separate it from your self worth as much as you can. Avoidants are bad at dealing with shame and will indirectly make their avoidance about you sometimes.
In those desperate moments when you just want him back, sometimes it helps to let yourself acknowledge that you could have him back, if you wanted. But it would be the same shitty relationship and you'd have these same shitty feelings. When that happens, it helps to reflect on your boundaries and needs. If you choose to reconnect, even as friends, you need to know what those are clearly, and don't accept less. Yours have been trodden all over ofr quite some time, and that is something you can repair now.
Anyway hope some of those thoughts help. I sure feel for you right now. Tons of love!
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 12, 2020 12:50:32 GMT
Sending you love and hugs Confusednyc <3 This is such a daunting time for you, and you're being very level headed and brave. I've been through multiple deactivations and two final breakups with avoidant partners in recent years, and the pain felt brutal every time. But if this is any comfort to you at all, I can say when you've swung anxious as an FA, the pain usually hits you hardest for around 3-4 weeks, then there is a sharp decline after around a month. You will get through it, its just going to hurt hard for a bit, especially at first. It really helps to get your mind set right while you're processing this, and in a lot of ways you already have. When you're processing feelings of rejection, remember that its the relationship closeness that he rejected, not you. And you are entitled to closeness in order feel safe, trusting, and loved. He rejected it because of his own issues only. He may not completely know this and you may feel a little bit of internalised shame, from things he did or said to avoid accountability (and his own shame). Try to separate it from your self worth as much as you can. Avoidants are bad at dealing with shame and will indirectly make their avoidance about you sometimes. In those desperate moments when you just want him back, sometimes it helps to let yourself acknowledge that you could have him back, if you wanted. But it would be the same shitty relationship and you'd have these same shitty feelings. When that happens, it helps to reflect on your boundaries and needs. If you choose to reconnect, even as friends, you need to know what those are clearly, and don't accept less. Yours have been trodden all over ofr quite some time, and that is something you can repair now. Anyway hope some of those thoughts help. I sure feel for you right now. Tons of love! serenity - Thank you so much for such kind and encouraging words. I appreciate that you think I am being level-headed and such, but I sure feel anxious and vulnerable and in fear that I won’t be strong enough if he should reach out. I’ve lasted a month before and it did get easier after a few weeks and I think I would have lasted longer if we hadn’t run into each other. As I mentioned, we share a small, isolated country road so whenever he leaves the house, he has to drive by and my stomach drops. And he has ADHD and is always forgetting stuff so he drives by a lot. Haha! Last break, if I was outside, I would keep my head down. He would honk or say “hi” and I would ignore. I felt bad, but... This time, I told him no honking or stopping, etc. I’ve been pretty mopey and admittedly I mostly lied in bed yesterday. Today, I am a little more functional and back on schedule (I am a very structured person), so that’s good and I have to give this board a lot of credit for helping me through it all. It’s hard to discuss with friends, because not everyone is familiar with attachment styles and they end up reducing it to, “He’s just using you.” “He’s a player.” “He doesn’t really care about you.” And it’s often not so simple or not true at all in these dynamics... and I think those simplified interpretations make the partners of FAs feel even worse. Anyway, a lot of my feelings about the other night have subsided or mellowed, but I still wrestle with how my FA’s reaction to discussions of a breakup are so varied. Like I said, the other day, he was receptive and understanding and vulnerable, admitting he wasn’t happy about it and fighting it a bit. The other night, he was cold, hostile and harsh and resolute in how he couldn’t handle a relationship and said little to make me think he cared at all, which was hurtful. I guess looking back, his feelings (not just with me but all parts of his life) were always all over the place. He never seemed to have consistent standards or beliefs... so much internal conflict about his life and friends (writing them off one minute and then defending them the next)... He also suffers from clinically diagnosed anxiety, depression, ADHD and a myriad of of physical ailments. Anyway, I know it’s for the best if he respects my boundaries and doesn’t reach out, but the finality of it all is hitting me. As I mentioned, he hasn’t stormed off like since early on and when he’s done that in the past, it was so extreme, I was sure it was the end. But he would always resurface apologetically and vulnerably. My abusive narc ex was masterful at this. And I would call my best friend crying and saying “No, THIS TIME is different. He really is done.” And my wonderful friend in all his wisdom said, “Don’t you see? The problem is it’s never different. It’s never over with him unless YOU do something different.” And he was right. And I imagine this situation is the same. They are just so convincing when they get worked up and leave. |
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 12, 2020 15:09:48 GMT
Sending you love and hugs Confusednyc <3 This is such a daunting time for you, and you're being very level headed and brave. I've been through multiple deactivations and two final breakups with avoidant partners in recent years, and the pain felt brutal every time. But if this is any comfort to you at all, I can say when you've swung anxious as an FA, the pain usually hits you hardest for around 3-4 weeks, then there is a sharp decline after around a month. You will get through it, its just going to hurt hard for a bit, especially at first. It really helps to get your mind set right while you're processing this, and in a lot of ways you already have. When you're processing feelings of rejection, remember that its the relationship closeness that he rejected, not you. And you are entitled to closeness in order feel safe, trusting, and loved. He rejected it because of his own issues only. He may not completely know this and you may feel a little bit of internalised shame, from things he did or said to avoid accountability (and his own shame). Try to separate it from your self worth as much as you can. Avoidants are bad at dealing with shame and will indirectly make their avoidance about you sometimes. In those desperate moments when you just want him back, sometimes it helps to let yourself acknowledge that you could have him back, if you wanted. But it would be the same shitty relationship and you'd have these same shitty feelings. When that happens, it helps to reflect on your boundaries and needs. If you choose to reconnect, even as friends, you need to know what those are clearly, and don't accept less. Yours have been trodden all over ofr quite some time, and that is something you can repair now. Anyway hope some of those thoughts help. I sure feel for you right now. Tons of love! serenity - Thank you so much for such kind and encouraging words. I appreciate that you think I am being level-headed and such, but I sure feel anxious and vulnerable and in fear that I won’t be strong enough if he should reach out. I’ve lasted a month before and it did get easier after a few weeks and I think I would have lasted longer if we hadn’t run into each other. As I mentioned, we share a small, isolated country road so whenever he leaves the house, he has to drive by and my stomach drops. And he has ADHD and is always forgetting stuff so he drives by a lot. Haha! Last break, if I was outside, I would keep my head down. He would honk or say “hi” and I would ignore. I felt bad, but... This time, I told him no honking or stopping, etc. I’ve been pretty mopey and admittedly I mostly lied in bed yesterday. Today, I am a little more functional and back on schedule (I am a very structured person), so that’s good and I have to give this board a lot of credit for helping me through it all. It’s hard to discuss with friends, because not everyone is familiar with attachment styles and they end up reducing it to, “He’s just using you.” “He’s a player.” “He doesn’t really care about you.” And it’s often not so simple or not true at all in these dynamics... and I think those simplified interpretations make the partners of FAs feel even worse. Anyway, a lot of my feelings about the other night have subsided or mellowed, but I still wrestle with how my FA’s reaction to discussions of a breakup are so varied. Like I said, the other day, he was receptive and understanding and vulnerable, admitting he wasn’t happy about it and fighting it a bit. The other night, he was cold, hostile and harsh and resolute in how he couldn’t handle a relationship and said little to make me think he cared at all, which was hurtful. I guess looking back, his feelings (not just with me but all parts of his life) were always all over the place. He never seemed to have consistent standards or beliefs... so much internal conflict about his life and friends (writing them off one minute and then defending them the next)... He also suffers from clinically diagnosed anxiety, depression, ADHD and a myriad of of physical ailments. Anyway, I know it’s for the best if he respects my boundaries and doesn’t reach out, but the finality of it all is hitting me. As I mentioned, he hasn’t stormed off like since early on and when he’s done that in the past, it was so extreme, I was sure it was the end. But he would always resurface apologetically and vulnerably. My abusive narc ex was masterful at this. And I would call my best friend crying and saying “No, THIS TIME is different. He really is done.” And my wonderful friend in all his wisdom said, “Don’t you see? The problem is it’s never different. It’s never over with him unless YOU do something different.” And he was right. And I imagine this situation is the same. They are just so convincing when they get worked up and leave. The guy I dated also has ADHD and would leave things behind accidentally. When he broke up with me, his wallet fell out of his pocket and he had to come and get it the next day....it was so very awkward. |
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 12, 2020 15:28:35 GMT
serenity - Thank you so much for such kind and encouraging words. I appreciate that you think I am being level-headed and such, but I sure feel anxious and vulnerable and in fear that I won’t be strong enough if he should reach out. I’ve lasted a month before and it did get easier after a few weeks and I think I would have lasted longer if we hadn’t run into each other. As I mentioned, we share a small, isolated country road so whenever he leaves the house, he has to drive by and my stomach drops. And he has ADHD and is always forgetting stuff so he drives by a lot. Haha! Last break, if I was outside, I would keep my head down. He would honk or say “hi” and I would ignore. I felt bad, but... This time, I told him no honking or stopping, etc. I’ve been pretty mopey and admittedly I mostly lied in bed yesterday. Today, I am a little more functional and back on schedule (I am a very structured person), so that’s good and I have to give this board a lot of credit for helping me through it all. It’s hard to discuss with friends, because not everyone is familiar with attachment styles and they end up reducing it to, “He’s just using you.” “He’s a player.” “He doesn’t really care about you.” And it’s often not so simple or not true at all in these dynamics... and I think those simplified interpretations make the partners of FAs feel even worse. Anyway, a lot of my feelings about the other night have subsided or mellowed, but I still wrestle with how my FA’s reaction to discussions of a breakup are so varied. Like I said, the other day, he was receptive and understanding and vulnerable, admitting he wasn’t happy about it and fighting it a bit. The other night, he was cold, hostile and harsh and resolute in how he couldn’t handle a relationship and said little to make me think he cared at all, which was hurtful. I guess looking back, his feelings (not just with me but all parts of his life) were always all over the place. He never seemed to have consistent standards or beliefs... so much internal conflict about his life and friends (writing them off one minute and then defending them the next)... He also suffers from clinically diagnosed anxiety, depression, ADHD and a myriad of of physical ailments. Anyway, I know it’s for the best if he respects my boundaries and doesn’t reach out, but the finality of it all is hitting me. As I mentioned, he hasn’t stormed off like since early on and when he’s done that in the past, it was so extreme, I was sure it was the end. But he would always resurface apologetically and vulnerably. My abusive narc ex was masterful at this. And I would call my best friend crying and saying “No, THIS TIME is different. He really is done.” And my wonderful friend in all his wisdom said, “Don’t you see? The problem is it’s never different. It’s never over with him unless YOU do something different.” And he was right. And I imagine this situation is the same. They are just so convincing when they get worked up and leave. The guy I dated also has ADHD and would leave things behind accidentally. When he broke up with me, his wallet fell out of his pocket and he had to come and get it the next day....it was so very awkward. tnr9 Oh my gosh. Your reply made me chuckle. Please don’t take it the wrong way as I’m sure it was painful as well as awkward and maybe still is. But it just reminded me so much of my FA. Fortunately, I made sure everything he brought over went with him the other night. He’s so flaky, he probably wouldn’t notice if he did forget something other than a necessity like his wallet or phone. But I have to say, the ADHD added complications to an already complicated dynamic. It became hard to know if some of his behaviors were attributed to being FA or his ADHD. A lot of the times when I wouldn’t hear from him, his phone would be missing, not charged or turned off (from Bill nonpayment). I would find out after the fact. He would also offer to help me with small things around my house, but forget to bring the tools and all when he visited. I wondered if I was too forgiving for too long because I would tell myself he didn’t mean to and it was just his ADHD. I never made him feel bad about flaking and all as I knew it wasn’t intentional or malicious. Then again, I feel like he’s 50 and if this plagues him (as he said it does), he can implement post-it’s, calendars, alarms, reminders. Heck, I do and I am pretty organized and on top of things. A friend of mine once told me that I should consider the outcome of my partners’ behaviors and how it made me feel as opposed to always looking at and trying to understand the reasons behind their behaviors. He said, while compassionate, there was a “danger” in it as there are always valid, often painful and sad reasons, behind our behaviors, but that can’t be used to justify how we act in the world and treat people. |
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 12, 2020 15:45:51 GMT
The guy I dated also has ADHD and would leave things behind accidentally. When he broke up with me, his wallet fell out of his pocket and he had to come and get it the next day....it was so very awkward. tnr9 Oh my gosh. Your reply made me chuckle. Please don’t take it the wrong way as I’m sure it was painful as well as awkward and maybe still is. But it just reminded me so much of my FA. Fortunately, I made sure everything he brought over went with him the other night. He’s so flaky, he probably wouldn’t notice if he did forget something other than a necessity like his wallet or phone. But I have to say, the ADHD added complications to an already complicated dynamic. It became hard to know if some of his behaviors were attributed to being FA or his ADHD. A lot of the times when I wouldn’t hear from him, his phone would be missing, not charged or turned off (from Bill nonpayment). I would find out after the fact. He would also offer to help me with small things around my house, but forget to bring the tools and all when he visited. I wondered if I was too forgiving for too long because I would tell myself he didn’t mean to and it was just his ADHD. I never made him feel bad about flaking and all as I knew it wasn’t intentional or malicious. Then again, I feel like he’s 50 and if this plagues him (as he said it does), he can implement post-it’s, calendars, alarms, reminders. Heck, I do and I am pretty organized and on top of things. A friend of mine once told me that I should consider the outcome of my partners’ behaviors and how it made me feel as opposed to always looking at and trying to understand the reasons behind their behaviors. He said, while compassionate, there was a “danger” in it as there are always valid, often painful and sad reasons, behind our behaviors, but that can’t be used to justify how we act in the world and treat people. Wow...B was the same way....in fact, I still have something of his because he left it behind the last time I saw him. Yes...his ADHD added complexities too and I too questioned whether he was FA of just secure but forgetful. He too would offer to fix things but then we would not have what he needed or he simply forgot. He would have to put multiple reminders on his phone and whenever he would leave I would ask..do you have your phone, wallet and keys. |
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Post by serenity on Apr 12, 2020 20:16:15 GMT
Anyway, a lot of my feelings about the other night have subsided or mellowed, but I still wrestle with how my FA’s reaction to discussions of a breakup are so varied. Like I said, the other day, he was receptive and understanding and vulnerable, admitting he wasn’t happy about it and fighting it a bit. The other night, he was cold, hostile and harsh and resolute in how he couldn’t handle a relationship and said little to make me think he cared at all, which was hurtful. I guess looking back, his feelings (not just with me but all parts of his life) were always all over the place. He never seemed to have consistent standards or beliefs... so much internal conflict about his life and friends (writing them off one minute and then defending them the next)... He also suffers from clinically diagnosed anxiety, depression, ADHD and a myriad of of physical ailments. Anyway, I know it’s for the best if he respects my boundaries and doesn’t reach out, but the finality of it all is hitting me. As I mentioned, he hasn’t stormed off like since early on and when he’s done that in the past, it was so extreme, I was sure it was the end. But he would always resurface apologetically and vulnerably. My abusive narc ex was masterful at this. And I would call my best friend crying and saying “No, THIS TIME is different. He really is done.” And my wonderful friend in all his wisdom said, “Don’t you see? The problem is it’s never different. It’s never over with him unless YOU do something different.” And he was right. And I imagine this situation is the same. They are just so convincing when they get worked up and leave. Hugs <3 Its so hard that you have that ongoing intermittent contact, or even the threat of it. I agree you need to attempt radio silence, for the sake of moving past your grief and getting strong again. Avoidants don't usually start to process loss until there's been total radio silence for at least 6 weeks, sometimes up to 3 months. They become kind of emotionally unreachable until then, even "relieved" for 6 weeks or so. During that time when you are feeling the most pain and suffering, you wouldn't be able to attempt to negotiate any of your needs or reconcile, because they aren't really missing you yet. If you try to come back when your pain feels intolerable, you won't have any strength to assert boundaries. This is how avoidant partners get the upper hand so easily and can get away with so much poor treatment towards partners. Do whatever it takes to make yourself strong enough to ask for what you really want, and accept a clear "no" if that's the answer. Sometimes that's what partners really need to hear, and accept, in order to let go. Meanwhile keep reading the forums here. The reality is that Avoidants usually don't change and you are usually better off looking for a partner with more empathy for your distress and feelings in general. |
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 12, 2020 21:08:51 GMT
Anyway, a lot of my feelings about the other night have subsided or mellowed, but I still wrestle with how my FA’s reaction to discussions of a breakup are so varied. Like I said, the other day, he was receptive and understanding and vulnerable, admitting he wasn’t happy about it and fighting it a bit. The other night, he was cold, hostile and harsh and resolute in how he couldn’t handle a relationship and said little to make me think he cared at all, which was hurtful. I guess looking back, his feelings (not just with me but all parts of his life) were always all over the place. He never seemed to have consistent standards or beliefs... so much internal conflict about his life and friends (writing them off one minute and then defending them the next)... He also suffers from clinically diagnosed anxiety, depression, ADHD and a myriad of of physical ailments. Anyway, I know it’s for the best if he respects my boundaries and doesn’t reach out, but the finality of it all is hitting me. As I mentioned, he hasn’t stormed off like since early on and when he’s done that in the past, it was so extreme, I was sure it was the end. But he would always resurface apologetically and vulnerably. My abusive narc ex was masterful at this. And I would call my best friend crying and saying “No, THIS TIME is different. He really is done.” And my wonderful friend in all his wisdom said, “Don’t you see? The problem is it’s never different. It’s never over with him unless YOU do something different.” And he was right. And I imagine this situation is the same. They are just so convincing when they get worked up and leave. Hugs <3 Its so hard that you have that ongoing intermittent contact, or even the threat of it. I agree you need to attempt radio silence, for the sake of moving past your grief and getting strong again. Avoidants don't usually start to process loss until there's been total radio silence for at least 6 weeks, sometimes up to 3 months. They become kind of emotionally unreachable until then, even "relieved" for 6 weeks or so. During that time when you are feeling the most pain and suffering, you wouldn't be able to attempt to negotiate any of your needs or reconcile, because they aren't really missing you yet. If you try to come back when your pain feels intolerable, you won't have any strength to assert boundaries. This is how avoidant partners get the upper hand so easily and can get away with so much poor treatment towards partners. Do whatever it takes to make yourself strong enough to ask for what you really want, and accept a clear "no" if that's the answer. Sometimes that's what partners really need to hear, and accept, in order to let go. Meanwhile keep reading the forums here. The reality is that Avoidants usually don't change and you are usually better off looking for a partner with more empathy for your distress and feelings in general. serenity, thank you. You have the kindest tone in your writings. My FA has never been able to stay away for that long. I believe the longest he's ever refrained from contacting me was just under two weeks and that was after a similar blow-up as what happened the other evening. I am certain he is FA and he did agree the description sounds like him, but as I've stated before, he doesn't seem as extreme in many aspects. Last time I asked for no contact for a month, he texted the next morning, but again, the "end" wasn't volatile... It was pleasant. In any case, I started feeling more at ease about 2-3 weeks in to no contact, but I do believe part of that, unfortunately, was because he was reaching out periodically and so I knew he was missing me and I could have him back when the month ended. In the past, the few times early on when it's been one of his volatile exits, like the other night, he was didn't reach out for days and it was much harder on me, as I felt he was done. That's how I feel now and I'm going through the "If only I had said this or done this instead..." phase of it all, because I feel so bad about it all. I know it will be for the best if he and I can stay disconnected as planned, especially if we choose to be friends... so that, as you so helpfully outlined, I'll be strong enough to assert boundaries, etc. |
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Post by serenity on Apr 12, 2020 22:57:12 GMT
I understand. Just about anyone gentle feels like gold after Narc abuse, and I can see why you tried so hard with him.
Just from personal experience, do you feel that your attachment style has been swung FA because of narc abuse? I know mine did. When that's the case, trust-building and reassurance in relationships is very important, or you can become very scared and anxious. This FA guy may not be a narc, but he likely lacks the skills to earn your trust in a romantic relationship. You need steadiness and a lot of reassuring behaviour, in my own experiences. During this time of disconnection, try to figure out things like what you need exactly from people you let close, that would make you trust them?
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Post by confusednyc on Apr 14, 2020 12:48:23 GMT
I understand. Just about anyone gentle feels like gold after Narc abuse, and I can see why you tried so hard with him. Just from personal experience, do you feel that your attachment style has been swung FA because of narc abuse? I know mine did. When that's the case, trust-building and reassurance in relationships is very important, or you can become very scared and anxious. This FA guy may not be a narc, but he likely lacks the skills to earn your trust in a romantic relationship. You need steadiness and a lot of reassuring behaviour, in my own experiences. During this time of disconnection, try to figure out things like what you need exactly from people you let close, that would make you trust them? serenity, thanks again for your compassion and understanding. And I'm SO sorry you went through narc abuse. I'm glad you are on the other side of it. As you might have gathered from a prior post, I am trying to understand my attachment. Looking back, I feel I was somewhat FA when younger, as I wouldn't panic and distance when the person wanted to spend "too much" time. It took me awhile to sleep over. I realize now, I was trying to avoid potentially being hurt or left. The thing is, it didn't take too long until I would come around. I was able to eventually trust and let down my guard after they showed me consistency and reassurance, unlike what I am experiencing with my FA ex. I feel like after being with my narc ex, I just became extremely insecure. I always had insecurities, but they were definitely made worse by him. Despite not choosing the best partners for me before him, none of them had even so much as raised their voice at me, much less called me names and raged at me. It was new and horrifying. Walking on eggshells was new territory for me. So I believe after him, I probably became more anxious if anything. And I think there was a cumulative effect from my other exes as well; while they were consistently "all in" during the relationship until the end which were dramatic acts of betrayal: One sued my business out of spite and hurt and the court battle financially and emotionally devastated me and the other got hooked on heroine. When I met my FA ex, I was actually the opposite of fearful avoidant. I remember making a conscious decision to just be open and honest and vulnerable. I didn't realize he was FA and now looking back, I realize he was the last person on earth to be receptive to this. LOL! But he was like that at the start and so it seemed natural. When he pulled back, I got super anxious and moved closer. So I am not sure if this anxiousness was partly the result of my narc ex or if, as I said in a prior post, I just was never tested as I always had partners who were "all in." So I don't know enough about this and it seems attachment styles can swing, but I always thought they were primarily dictated by our childhood. If that's the case, I would guess I am more anxious than anything, but that when with an overbearing partner, I get mildy avoidant until I feel "certain" they aren't going to leave me. Regardless, I know that whether I am FA or AP or whatever, I am definitely NOT secure and that's the goal. |
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. I can guarantee first hand, even if you hint at the condition, as others have said here, it still is unlikely people change. That subconscious programming way too strong and ingrained.