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Post by mrob on May 24, 2020 0:34:28 GMT
What do you mean? In what way? What is “hanging out” for you?
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Post by kittygirl on May 24, 2020 1:47:12 GMT
Caroline- I will be so interested to see what responses you get to this question (all the people on this forum are so insightful and have so many different perspectives) and this is something I have wondered about as well. If you search through old threads on here, you will see it's a repeat issue. I can give you my perspective which may offer you some insight that you can just add to your bucket. With respect to my ex, he would make plans with such incredible enthusiasm "I can't WAIT to see you" "I want to be with you so much" but would not be able to follow through. So you are not alone. And it was the ONE thing that really affected me (I dont mind getting my texts ignored or having to be the driving point of communication but this was what ended up deeply hurting me) so please know first of all that my experience was very much the same. For what it's worth, I believe with all my heart that he emotionally wanted to do it. But couldn't in the end. But I never really felt like I understood it UNTIL my very close FA friend (who I've also talked about on here) gave me some wonderful insight. Read on. He was seeing a woman. Relatively casually. He like exploded to me one night about how he's "so done" with spending time with her and how its "so exhausting". So after I pried a bit it became clear-spending time with someone in a romantic capacity was utterly DRAINING on him from almost a soul level. He felt like he was constantly having to monitor his behavior, stuff down his anger (which he fully understood was irrational and comes from the emotional dysregulation from his CPTSD) all while checking in with her constantly-to give her "100% of my attention" and combined with the hyper vigilance was just too much. When I said "well god why don't you take some time out when you're together and check your phone or take some time for yourself?" he said "because I think that's rude". He told me it takes him days or sometimes WEEKS to "charge up his battery" in order to spend time with a woman. And when he said this to me, it REALLY stuck with me, he said: " I just want someone to love me from afar". And thats when it hit me... I realized that his ACTUAL reality is different from mine. Like our realities, which are as real to each other as the color of the sky, are just completely different. For me, getting close to someone and spending time with them is...well...fun. And enjoyable. It comes naturally to me. I go on my phone to respond to texts or look stuff up if I need to. Or zone out or think about other things etc etc. I also don't have to deal with getting triggered and constant emotional dysregulation that I don't understand. But that is simply not his reality. For him, it's like an unrelenting, exhausting task. Now, this is a woman he didn't really even care that much about. Imagine if it was someone you really were attached to where the stakes are so high? I am in no way speaking for any other FA individuals or suggesting this is universal and hell for all I know this is totally unique to only him BUT it sure as hell was eye opening for me and perhaps will help you to think about it from a different perspective, too. Thanks for the question as I wonder this as well |
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Post by Dualcitizen on May 24, 2020 1:53:38 GMT
Caroline- I will be so interested to see what responses you get to this question (all the people on this forum are so insightful and have so many different perspectives) and this is something I have wondered about as well. If you search through old threads on here, you will see it's a repeat issue. I can give you my perspective which may offer you some insight that you can just add to your bucket. With respect to my ex, he would make plans with such incredible enthusiasm "I can't WAIT to see you" "I want to be with you so much" but would not be able to follow through. So you are not alone. And it was the ONE thing that really affected me (I dont mind getting my texts ignored or having to be the driving point of communication but this was what ended up deeply hurting me) so please know first of all that my experience was very much the same. For what it's worth, I believe with all my heart that he emotionally wanted to do it. But couldn't in the end. But I never really felt like I understood it UNTIL my very close FA friend (who I've also talked about on here) gave me some wonderful insight. Read on. He was seeing a woman. Relatively casually. He like exploded to me one night about how he's "so done" with spending time with her and how its "so exhausting". So after I pried a bit it became clear-spending time with someone in a romantic capacity was utterly DRAINING on him from almost a soul level. He felt like he was constantly having to monitor his behavior, stuff down his anger (which he fully understood was irrational and comes from the emotional dysregulation from his CPTSD) all while checking in with her constantly-to give her "100% of my attention" and combined with the hyper vigilance was just too much. When I said "well god why don't you take some time out when you're together and check your phone or take some time for yourself?" he said "because I think that's rude". He told me it takes him days or sometimes WEEKS to "charge up his battery" in order to spend time with a woman. And when he said this to me, it REALLY stuck with me, he said: " I just want someone to love me from afar". And thats when it hit me... I realized that his ACTUAL reality is different from mine. Like our realities, which are as real to each other as the color of the sky, are just completely different. For me, getting close to someone and spending time with them is...well...fun. And enjoyable. It comes naturally to me. I go on my phone to respond to texts or look stuff up if I need to. Or zone out or think about other things etc etc. I also don't have to deal with getting triggered and constant emotional dysregulation that I don't understand. But that is simply not his reality. For him, it's like an unrelenting, exhausting task. Now, this is a woman he didn't really even care that much about. Imagine if it was someone you really were attached to where the stakes are so high? I am in no way speaking for any other FA individuals or suggesting this is universal and hell for all I know this is totally unique to only him BUT it sure as hell was eye opening for me and perhaps will help you to think about it from a different perspective, too. Thanks for the question as I wonder this as well Amazing insight Kitty, I'll just add mine had similar dialogue, and still does "I'm just so drained all the time". Would suspect from the hypervigilance and fighting everything internally. The individuals 4F response would probably determine this moreso, and it would vary a little for sure I would suspect. |
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Post by kittygirl on May 24, 2020 1:57:11 GMT
For what it's worth, I think that having a "task" like watching a movie/play together is a really nice "compromise" because it might give him some mental space to not have to be in that hypervigilant space all the time. I can only IMAGINE what that would be like. Also for what it's worth (and I said this to my friend) it's because he wants to give SO MUCH that he ends up burning himself out and then not wanting to do it at all. It's not because he's trying to be selfish. Perhaps you have already seen this, but evidently a study was done where they looked at avoidants' reactions to loss and fear in a realtionship and they were able to suppress those feelings when not distracted. When they were given another task however, their reactions became less repressed (I'm pasting the relevant paragraph below and also the article link: www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/The-Avoidant-Attachment-Style):Studies have shown that those with avoidant attachment are less satisfied and happy in their relationships. The main goal of an avoidantly attached person is to keep their relationships at a distance (this is often a subconscious goal that they are not aware of). These individuals learned to repress emotions to feel safe. However, this is an insecure type of attachment style. Studies have shown that under stress an avoidant individual will resort to the behaviors that they are trying to repress which are in fact closer to that of an anxious attachment style. One of the key books on the subject of attachment is Attached by Amir Levin and Rachel Heller: "researchers distracted the avoidants by giving them another task to perform - like solving a puzzle or responding to another cue - while a word recognition task was going on. In these situations, the avoidants reacted to words related to their own attachment worries ("separation," "loss," "death") just as quickly as other people did. Distracted by another task their ability to repress lessened and their true attachment feelings and concerns were able to surface" |
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Post by Dualcitizen on May 24, 2020 2:10:34 GMT
For what it's worth, I think that having a "task" like watching a movie/play together is a really nice "compromise" because it might give him some mental space to not have to be in that hypervigilant space all the time. I can only IMAGINE what that would be like. Also for what it's worth (and I said this to my friend) it's because he wants to give SO MUCH that he ends up burning himself out and then not wanting to do it at all. It's not because he's trying to be selfish. Perhaps you have already seen this, but evidently a study was done where they looked at avoidants' reactions to loss and fear in a realtionship and they were able to suppress those feelings when not distracted. When they were given another task however, their reactions became less repressed (I'm pasting the relevant paragraph below and also the article link: www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/The-Avoidant-Attachment-Style):Studies have shown that those with avoidant attachment are less satisfied and happy in their relationships. The main goal of an avoidantly attached person is to keep their relationships at a distance (this is often a subconscious goal that they are not aware of). These individuals learned to repress emotions to feel safe. However, this is an insecure type of attachment style. Studies have shown that under stress an avoidant individual will resort to the behaviors that they are trying to repress which are in fact closer to that of an anxious attachment style. One of the key books on the subject of attachment is Attached by Amir Levin and Rachel Heller: "researchers distracted the avoidants by giving them another task to perform - like solving a puzzle or responding to another cue - while a word recognition task was going on. In these situations, the avoidants reacted to words related to their own attachment worries ("separation," "loss," "death") just as quickly as other people did. Distracted by another task their ability to repress lessened and their true attachment feelings and concerns were able to surface" Also of note, I wont go into massive details, but since I've been reading up on all this again (past 18 months in particular), I've sort of helped an old school friend as well recently, turns out he took the attachment test from Dianne Poole Heller's site, equal 25% split on the pie chart (A fearful-avoidant seemingly). He's very creative and ONLY expresses his emotions via music creation, art, photography etc, (always delved "spiritually" or metaphysically for answers) just admitted he can't do it verbally very well. It only just clicked on me his "avoidance" the past decade in particular, since being married. Has almost totally locked himself away from family and friends. But he's admitted all this very recently to me. It matches what Brianna McWilliam on Youtube states via avoidants are better communicated with via creative expression. She herself identifies as a F-A |
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Post by mrob on May 24, 2020 2:33:47 GMT
caro He’s come a long way towards behaving in the way you want him to. Is it possible to cut him a bit of slack? I’d have real trouble being constantly accountable like that for my own actions and inactions.
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Post by jayber on May 24, 2020 3:05:34 GMT
What is it about hanging out that is so hard for FAs? I have some guesses based on reading items here on the forum and elsewhere, but I wanted to see what everyone else thought. I also want to ask my FA this, but in a kind way. It’s been one of two biggest issues to date. It takes a lot of effort. It’s hard for me to really relax with people. Imagine feeling on edge all the time. With avoidants it’s like I have to work really hard to please them and keep them happy, With anxious people, I feel like I’m always trying to keep my guard up but at the same time playing a complicated game of chess so I don’t hurt their feelings. In both situations I feel it’s hard to assert my preferences about what I’d like to do. For FAs it’s quite hard to comprehend that dating doesn’t always have to be ‘amazing’. When I date, I always now suggest a fun activity. It helps me enjoy the moment, relax and gives us something to chat about after. It brings out the best in me. Dates which are heavy conversations initially feel nice, but the prolonged intensity over many dates is too much and I bail. Dates where I think I’m being managed or someone is overthinking what I’m doing and trying to “fix” me makes me feel like I’m not respected or given space and I push them away and avoid them. |
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Post by mrob on May 24, 2020 4:24:43 GMT
You’re going back to trying to manage him, trying to bring him out. I don’t think anything your therapist suggested there is extreme at all, btw.
The other thing is... my friends and I talk about one topic, and it’s the last place you’d like to be after about three and a half minutes.
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Post by tnr9 on May 24, 2020 4:50:34 GMT
caro He’s come a long way towards behaving in the way you want him to. Is it possible to cut him a bit of slack? I’d have real trouble being constantly accountable like that for my own actions and inactions. And I don’t want this to be all about me... but if he doesn’t speak up and express himself, how am I suppose to know what he wants/needs/feels? And it’s confusing for him to suggest hanging out today, ignore me when I follow up, then be with his friends. To me that just screams, I’m ashamed of you, and I don’t want my friends to meet you. Have you asked him about it? Why it seems so much easier for him to hang out with his friends then with you? Because right now, there is a story in your head telling you how he feels without any confirmation from him and it is impacting how you view his decisions. I know it is perhaps easier to come to this board and ask as a general question....but only he can really speak to your question. |
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Post by kittygirl on May 24, 2020 5:32:10 GMT
Caroline-first of all, I so get that you want to address these issues (we talk all the time on this forum about the importance of voicing your needs)and you are doing so well with your own growth in this area-we have all seen it first hand in your posts! The reality though, may be that his NEEDS are just so misaligned with yours that it could be next to impossible to find a "happy middle ground" where both needs are being met. Because re: bringing up the subject it's just such a hard one. I think bringing it up like "Listen I need to see someone when I am dating them" and put the ball in his court is something you could do. He may ignore you again, and no answer is an answer, albeit a painful one. He isn't doing this all to make you miserable. And your stories of "is he embarrassed of me" etc are your own (understandable given your past) stories you are telling yourself. Think of this-If he is in fight or flight mode when you are together, constantly on edge and totally unrelaxed, then whether you "embarrass" him or not isn't even on his radar. He is in survival mode. (and this is coming from me who understands your feelings as I have felt that before too). I too had SUCH a hard time with just walking away and cutting someone off when I felt like things weren't going well. Ironically though, it was my FA FRIEND who told me "you need to block his (FA EX) ass and stop trying in any way with him." Mrob is telling you the same thing. Your therapist who is an attachment specialist is also saying this. She sees case after case just like yours. She isn't telling you to do that as a way of "punishing" someone, or because she is naive as to how your boyfriend operates. It's because as a therapist, she wants what is best for your mental wellbeing. I know...GOD I KNOW how hard it is to do that. But as Thais Gibson says in her videos "you can't date someone's potential". IF you feel as though he is really working on the communication right now then that may be the most he can do. If you don't feel like you are getting what you DESERVE in a way that is sustainable, then you probably already know what you have to do. And it gets worse before it gets better but it always gets better when you put yourself first. Can I tell you-I actually asked my FA friend at one point about my EX (I was crying, in so much pain at the time) "If I promised someone I would never abandon them no matter what, and I abandon them, doesn't that make me a bad person?" and he said "Well if by not abandoning someone else, you abandon yourself then simply put, no". It was some of the best advice I have ever gotten. Thais Gibson JUST posted a very apropos video a couple days ago! I think this may be really informative for you. "6 ways to know if a fearful avoidant is ready for love": www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZnJL_R9BSw |
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Post by jayber on May 24, 2020 10:06:43 GMT
It takes a lot of effort. It’s hard for me to really relax with people. Imagine feeling on edge all the time. With avoidants it’s like I have to work really hard to please them and keep them happy, With anxious people, I feel like I’m always trying to keep my guard up but at the same time playing a complicated game of chess so I don’t hurt their feelings. In both situations I feel it’s hard to assert my preferences about what I’d like to do. For FAs it’s quite hard to comprehend that dating doesn’t always have to be ‘amazing’. When I date, I always now suggest a fun activity. It helps me enjoy the moment, relax and gives us something to chat about after. It brings out the best in me. Dates which are heavy conversations initially feel nice, but the prolonged intensity over many dates is too much and I bail. Dates where I think I’m being managed or someone is overthinking what I’m doing and trying to “fix” me makes me feel like I’m not respected or given space and I push them away and avoid them. Thank you! This is helpful. Do you feel like it’s harder and takes more effort the closer you get to them? It depends how I feel about them. Sometimes it’s the effort of going through the motions to keep them happy. I find it tiring and want to avoid it. |
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Post by tnr9 on May 24, 2020 10:08:54 GMT
kittygirl...that video is great and what I like is that it is focused on what the FA does rather than the FAs partner....because as she noted, change must come from within the person.
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Post by tnr9 on May 24, 2020 10:16:44 GMT
Thank you! This is helpful. Do you feel like it’s harder and takes more effort the closer you get to them? It depends how I feel about them. Sometimes it’s the effort of going through the motions to keep them happy. I find it tiring and want to avoid it. Would you say that in those cases of just going through the motions that you are trying to avoid conflict? My brother stayed in relationships because he felt overly “responsible” to the girl he was dating...that it was his job not to hurt her. And over time it would wear on him because he would feel in a sense “trapped” with no options other then leaving and hurting her or staying and being “miserable”. |
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Post by tnr9 on May 24, 2020 15:36:19 GMT
Caroline-first of all, I so get that you want to address these issues (we talk all the time on this forum about the importance of voicing your needs)and you are doing so well with your own growth in this area-we have all seen it first hand in your posts! The reality though, may be that his NEEDS are just so misaligned with yours that it could be next to impossible to find a "happy middle ground" where both needs are being met. Because re: bringing up the subject it's just such a hard one. I think bringing it up like "Listen I need to see someone when I am dating them" and put the ball in his court is something you could do. He may ignore you again, and no answer is an answer, albeit a painful one. He isn't doing this all to make you miserable. And your stories of "is he embarrassed of me" etc are your own (understandable given your past) stories you are telling yourself. Think of this-If he is in fight or flight mode when you are together, constantly on edge and totally unrelaxed, then whether you "embarrass" him or not isn't even on his radar. He is in survival mode. (and this is coming from me who understands your feelings as I have felt that before too). I too had SUCH a hard time with just walking away and cutting someone off when I felt like things weren't going well. Ironically though, it was my FA FRIEND who told me "you need to block his (FA EX) ass and stop trying in any way with him." Mrob is telling you the same thing. Your therapist who is an attachment specialist is also saying this. She sees case after case just like yours. She isn't telling you to do that as a way of "punishing" someone, or because she is naive as to how your boyfriend operates. It's because as a therapist, she wants what is best for your mental wellbeing. I know...GOD I KNOW how hard it is to do that. But as Thais Gibson says in her videos "you can't date someone's potential". IF you feel as though he is really working on the communication right now then that may be the most he can do. If you don't feel like you are getting what you DESERVE in a way that is sustainable, then you probably already know what you have to do. And it gets worse before it gets better but it always gets better when you put yourself first. Can I tell you-I actually asked my FA friend at one point about my EX (I was crying, in so much pain at the time) "If I promised someone I would never abandon them no matter what, and I abandon them, doesn't that make me a bad person?" and he said "Well if by not abandoning someone else, you abandon yourself then simply put, no". It was some of the best advice I have ever gotten. Thais Gibson JUST posted a very apropos video a couple days ago! I think this may be really informative for you. "6 ways to know if a fearful avoidant is ready for love": www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZnJL_R9BSwYou're right, and from recent therapy and trying to actually try with FA, I've been trying to express my needs... sometimes they just come out in a messy mess! I haven't been very direct about this one, outside of me being direct about how not seeing him felt — and that was last week. I feel like he expects me to ask him all the time — or at least of recent, because also in last week's conversation, he said something like "you can meet the dog whenever you want!" Which that's when I was like, wtf... and started the conversation of why we haven't been seeing each other. This whole pandemic just makes everything sticky. And I've tried hard not to just rehash old history/wounds, especially before we got much closer in April and before his communication improved etc. I do want to put the ball in his court, because I've ask so much — or I feel like at least! That's a good way to put it simply and like hey, I'm not asking too much. You're totally right too re: my narrative... and like I said in my other post, I feel like therapy recently is actually making this narrative worse vs. better. Which I guess is normal because all history is top of mind. And now I'm constantly more so questioning myself "is this just me?" "am I the big problem?" "I'm the one with so many issues, I'm making this worse by XYZ" and I don't know, I just feel more broken from diving into everything so much harder with this new therapist. While she's suggested that I do what I mentioned before and ask then leave, she's also at the same time called me out and has been like "you're self sabotaging, you're baiting him and not being clear, and you're going to push him away." She also told me the other week, "you're doing everything you can to prove that you're unlovable and that he doesn't / couldn't like/love you" — that one hit REALLY hard, because it's true. I did this with my longer term more secure (or very slightly AP ex), and even though I didn't really want to be with him deep down, I constantly tried to prove he couldn't/didn't love me. Same as the first one is true. I don't mean to at all of course... I've been trying so hard. Sometimes it makes me just want to run because I feel like I'm too messed up. Anyway, so a part of this is me, and it's hard sometimes to separate what's also just really him — like him straight up avoiding. Was yesterday because we didn't have clear plans from the day before and he already had them? Probably. But has he blown me off before, yes, twice before yesterday, this year. So in short of all of this rambling (so sorry!), I'm trying to take responsibility for my actions/part. It's hard because at first I don't always see it. I don't usually act on that first part... unless it's like a very short or delayed response (like yesterday, but I wasn't mean, just short/casual/no questions because I was trying to regulate myself... and frankly I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't want to protest, yet I didn't want to call him out as I wasn't sure what was me, etc, either. re: this: "If I promised someone I would never abandon them no matter what, and I abandon them, doesn't that make me a bad person?" and he said "Well if by not abandoning someone else, you abandon yourself then simply put, no". It was some of the best advice I have ever gotten." — OMG, I can relate to this line of thinking so much. That's good advice too. re: Thais' new video — that's a good one!! Although I almost felt more confused — which is good — because he's done (this year especially) at least 1/2 of those so far... which make me think of mrob 's statement on progress. (I hate to call it progress but in lack of a better word, maybe better connection/openness!) And on that, I really have some things to think about huh!? Hey Caroline....a thought just cane to me. Have you discussed autonomy with him.....that you are responsible for your feelings and he is responsible for his. I used to do that with B...I would say...I know you care about me and don’t want to hurt me and I want you to know that I own and am responsible for my happiness. I did that because I could tell that he felt responsible for his sisters and for his mom growing up and that transitioned over to his dating life so that conflict was a big no no and hurting someone was also a big no no...so I believe that wore on him in such a way, that it made our times full of unspoken self expectations. I too used to wonder why he did not want to spend more time with me...why it was so moment by moment and then it was so “scheduled”. And I truly think there was more going in with his thoughts then he let me believe (and of course, I can’t forget to mention he was struggling with telling me this was only a casual thing...so that is different from your situation.) |
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Post by serenity on May 24, 2020 19:40:52 GMT
Caroline, I wanted to ask you something about your own goals? Do wish to share your life with a partner, and possibly have a family in your lifetime? For a woman, these are very important things to consider when dating, and time does run out for us. I usually suggest people discuss these kinds of goals very early in a relationship with someone, and move on if that person has different goals. If you are avoiding being clear about what you want to preserve an unsatisfying relationship, it can be very painful when you realize you've invested years "hoping" someone will align with your needs, without ever having stated them...only to finally see they are incapable of it, and are happy the way they are.
I sure appreciate your compassion, patience and love for this wounded man. If you are hoping that he show up as your partner eventually and want to share a home and maybe kids, these are things you need to discuss with him IMO.
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