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Post by mrob on Jun 21, 2020 4:19:16 GMT
anne12, that is a good summary, but I won’t be tuning into my defective gut too soon, I assure you. It just leads me into futile situations.
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Post by anne12 on Jun 21, 2020 4:30:56 GMT
Also check out posts from - (there can be more than one post posted the same day): (June): 1/6-2019, 22/6-2019, (july): 17/7-2019, 18/7-2019, 29/7-2019 (February): 28/2-2020 - the dating thread..for more "911- gut/brain-help" jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1927/dating-tips-attatchment-styles-phasesThe tips are divided like this: Secure - do this xxxx Ambivalent (ap) - do this xxxx Dismissive avoidant (da) - do this xxxx
Desorganised (fa) - do this xxx |
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Post by alexandra on Jun 21, 2020 4:58:25 GMT
Firstly, all this talk about “gut”. Gut is what got most of us here in the first place. If gut worked, I wouldn’t be here. I would be secure and living happily ever after, tiptoeing through the tulips. I’ve needed my gut to be deprogrammed, just as I’ve needed to be deprogrammed in many other parts of my life. I agree with this, but there's two layers. The first is your gut from the dysfunctional insecure attachment style programming (ie if you're fearful-avoidant, an example may be looking at things from a negative place instead of neutral and assuming everyone has an agenda, so reading into something benign as, they're needy and will engulf me / they want something). But the second is, something really is off ie the other person actually is manipulative, or maybe the other person is unbalanced in a violent way, whatever it is, it's something warning you that ISN'T projection from the past. I know it's really difficult to sort out which is which when you're still fairly deeply entrenched in an insecure attachment style. And I think this is something seeking is exploring how to do right now. So mrob is right, you need to check your gut to see if it's pre-conditioning telling you to run away (and then not run away, in that case), but if there is something solid that's making you feel on guard, trusting your gut when something is truly wrong with the situation in front of you is also part of becoming more secure. I had to learn how to do this, and it's something that takes awareness and then practice. It started with me sorting out, is what's bothering me actually a me problem (projecting my AP insecurities) or is it a them/us problem (they're legitimately and perhaps consistently doing something specific that makes me uncomfortable)? |
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 21, 2020 5:58:16 GMT
Is anyone interested in this from a man’s point of view? Firstly, all this talk about “gut”. Gut is what got most of us here in the first place. If gut worked, I wouldn’t be here. I would be secure and living happily ever after, tiptoeing through the tulips. I’ve needed my gut to be deprogrammed, just as I’ve needed to be deprogrammed in many other parts of my life. Secondly, this is a place where people share in a general way, but there are things that people say that may seem small, but change everything. Things that give a real indication of people’s motivation. If half the information is shared, you’ll only get half an answer. The “good morning” text is a great example. Every woman I’ve seen wants that in the very least. Consistency, to know they’re in my mind, so on. I understand that once engulfment is reached, everything else is a pressure. I get that. But I beg you to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Try and get past the dysfunction of insecure attachment and have some compassion. Also, asking whether you have the time... I think that’s a valid question. I had coffee with a lady recently who could never have time for me, but was on a dating site. I had to make that assessment and see if that fitted with my life. I have the right to make that assessment as a sovereign individual. That’s probably some of the biggest news for me out of attachment theory is that I can decide what’s right for me. I just have to act in a reasonable, compassionate way. I get the whole gut giving you the wrong signals bit.....but I think as an insecure working to become secure....trusting that even if your gut is wrong, that you are still ok and that you still value what you feel is invaluable. We have to start somewhere....and if FA is about trusting neither ourself or others...then the best place to change that is to trust ourself. I find the more I trust myself...the less “personal” things become...and I don’t have to rely on my gut to enact a boundary that I (in my adult space) already have just by knowing who I am and what I want. |
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Post by mrob on Jun 21, 2020 6:06:03 GMT
That’s right tnr9, but the basis of the legitimacy of the wants/desires, what’s reasonable, has to come from established structure. It can’t come from what I’ve always relied upon to work. Maybe as time goes on, being practiced at acting differently, it might become natural, as In alexandra ‘s case. But until then, relying on my gut is dangerous. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 21, 2020 11:21:11 GMT
That’s right tnr9 , but the basis of the legitimacy of the wants/desires, what’s reasonable, has to come from established structure. It can’t come from what I’ve always relied upon to work. Maybe as time goes on, being practiced at acting differently, it might become natural, as In alexandra ‘s case. But until then, relying on my gut is dangerous. I truly respect that you have come to the conclusion you have above. Our stories are different and how we move along our path is going to be different. Do you mind clarifying for me what “established structure” is. I have a bit of a bad association with the word “structure” (mom is a very stoic Scottish woman, structure is her thing, not mine) and want to understand the word as you meant it. Thanks so much as always for sharing. |
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Post by mrob on Jun 21, 2020 13:24:42 GMT
For me, it’s the structure of attachment theory around relationships. I’ve honestly never had something that works so accurately and so consistently. In any relationship, I have the reference point of attachment theory. It shows me others, and myself consistently.
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Post by kittygirl on Jun 21, 2020 13:25:30 GMT
Is anyone interested in this from a man’s point of view? Firstly, all this talk about “gut”. Gut is what got most of us here in the first place. If gut worked, I wouldn’t be here. I would be secure and living happily ever after, tiptoeing through the tulips. I’ve needed my gut to be deprogrammed, just as I’ve needed to be deprogrammed in many other parts of my life. Secondly, this is a place where people share in a general way, but there are things that people say that may seem small, but change everything. Things that give a real indication of people’s motivation. If half the information is shared, you’ll only get half an answer. The “good morning” text is a great example. Every woman I’ve seen wants that in the very least. Consistency, to know they’re in my mind, so on. I understand that once engulfment is reached, everything else is a pressure. I get that. But I beg you to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Try and get past the dysfunction of insecure attachment and have some compassion. Also, asking whether you have the time... I think that’s a valid question. I had coffee with a lady recently who could never have time for me, but was on a dating site. I had to make that assessment and see if that fitted with my life. I have the right to make that assessment as a sovereign individual. That’s probably some of the biggest news for me out of attachment theory is that I can decide what’s right for me. I just have to act in a reasonable, compassionate way. mrob -First of all, I wanted to say that I very much appreciated this post and your perspective! And while I hardly think you were singling me out, since I directly commented on the "good morning" text, I feel as though I want to explain my OWN perspective and address some triggering remarks you made (we love looking at the world through our own lens, don't we folks  ) I am not going to speak for the OP since I can't possibly know how they feel about getting a good morning text. But I can tell you how it VERY SPECIFICALLY triggers me and what the thoughts are that i experience from something like that: 1) This would feel to me like it's setting up a routine...and I HATE routines. This is two-fold: a) i quite literally go to the place in my mind where if I buy into this, then what happens when the other person inevitably lets me down...by not texting it one morning. I expect to be let down. I don't want to thrust myself into something where I see that as a guarantee or rely on someone. And it's not sustainable to keep that up forever, so better not even do it in the first place. And then b) on the flip side of that, I also see the routine as now this PRESSURE to either respond or to send a good morning text myself. Pressure and obligation are my f**king kryptonite. Crazy isn't it how a person can simultaneously feel both the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment from the same simple 2 word text? Madness!
2) I have a deep, DEEP desire for very deep emotional connection (Thais Gibson talks in her FA course which Im taking about how this is a common trait for a lot of FAs) and I despise surface level stuff, so when I get texts like "How's it going" or "What are you doing" or "good morning" or the WORST OF ALL "Hi", I simply don't know what to do with it. This comes from a place of needing that emotional connection to such a degree that when things start to feel mundane, I start to feel completely disconnected from the person and like I'm not connecting with them at all. And like the relationship must be over. Again, madness.
3) Part of my core wounds as a child were feeling a pressure to perform, particularly when it comes to socializing (not important how it's related to my family life but it's all part of that) so if I get a text like that, I feel like it's just opening up communication ALL DAY where the conversational load has now been volleyed to me. Like "hey I couldn't think of anything to say so you go ahead and take this one." Since I suffer from severe perfectionism issues, this makes me feel almost paralyzed in where to go. I'd rather we just didn't talk at all that day. Madness yet again!
The reason I am bringing all this up is to demonstrate that this has little if not ZERO to do with the poor guy on the other end (in the case of the OP though I didn't like how some of his texts felt controlling). So I take a bit of umbrage with you saying "show some compassion" (admittedly that triggered me!) as I am someone who probably shows TOO much compassion for people ("Showing compassion to a fault since 1980" should be my forehead tattoo). I feel as though you might have gotten triggered by what was said, and I want to make sure you know that *I* know it's my own damn issue. Really.
Also, for what it's worth (and this is likely just me PERSONALLY) I find that "don't follow your gut" feels as blindly out of control as "follow your gut". Neither one seems to be tackling the root of the issues (it's important to realize that sometimes it's really important to follow our gut!). So what I have been trying to do is to get very deliberate about WHAT my specific triggers are and WHERE they come from. By taking Thais Gibsons course (which I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend to any and all insecurely attached folks as she has AP, DA and FA courses including basics like "boundaries" and "needs") I have been able to recognize which of my core wounds is being triggered (she nicely identifies which of those are common for FAs) and then at least I'm aware as I proceed. I am starting to feel LESS of a "slave to my emotions" (which by the way, would be my other forehead tattoo haha)
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Post by mrob on Jun 21, 2020 13:49:13 GMT
I understand all that, and strangely enough I understand the paradoxes. I’ve been in a position a few times in my life where I’ve had to surrender my old ideas and adopt entirely new ways of living life that have been spelled out to me. I’ve had to choose to do things and take attitudes on that I flatly didn’t think would work. Attachment theory is another one. Every time I’ve played with this after knowing where I sit, it’s been a disaster! The disasters make total sense, though. They’re saddeningly predictable in every stinking way you see on this board, every time. My responses, their responses, everything. No change brings no change. I’m a walking example of that, having gone so far, but not crossed the bridge like alexandra. It’s bloody painful. |
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Post by alexandra on Jun 21, 2020 17:26:08 GMT
mrob, you've certainly come much further than from when you started posting, though. And it took me years and years to get anywhere, with all the work one day unexpectedly clicking when I woke up one morning after a really bad triggered session of over a week after a second blindside breakup with an FA. Then, having to get acquainted with new thought patterns within my own head, which took several more months. All the untangling and reconditioning and simplifying is a process, don't discount that it's an accomplishment to be partway through and still sticking with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 2:24:44 GMT
mrob , you've certainly come much further than from when you started posting, though. And it took me years and years to get anywhere, with all the work one day unexpectedly clicking when I woke up one morning after a really bad triggered session of over a week after a second blindside breakup with an FA. Then, having to get acquainted with new thought patterns within my own head, which took several more months. All the untangling and reconditioning and simplifying is a process, don't discount that it's an accomplishment to be partway through and still sticking with it. it really just "clicked" for me as well, after a period of very intense emoting and trigger! but it wasn't like the change was immediate and long lasting - it did take time for it to untangle and settle in, and alot of back/forth with old programming that takes time and effort to manage as well. |
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Post by alexandra on Jun 22, 2020 19:26:16 GMT
seeking kittygirl, I recently met someone who has now started sending good morning texts way too soon ha ha. I'm aware it may be an AP sign but not assuming yet, and did exactly what I said earlier in this thread. Basically said, feel free to text whenever but here are my texting habits and don't expect timely morning responses. So we'll see how that goes 😂
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Post by kittygirl on Jun 23, 2020 0:57:10 GMT
seeking kittygirl , I recently met someone who has now started sending good morning texts way too soon ha ha. I'm aware it may be an AP sign but not assuming yet, and did exactly what I said earlier in this thread. Basically said, feel free to text whenever but here are my texting habits and don't expect timely morning responses. So we'll see how that goes 😂 Ha! I love it! Actually, for what it's worth, I find it quite helpful to hear how you are navigating the dating scene now. Funny how a two word text started such a discourse. Yes please let us know  |
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Post by alexandra on Jun 24, 2020 8:03:18 GMT
seeking kittygirl , I recently met someone who has now started sending good morning texts way too soon ha ha. I'm aware it may be an AP sign but not assuming yet, and did exactly what I said earlier in this thread. Basically said, feel free to text whenever but here are my texting habits and don't expect timely morning responses. So we'll see how that goes 😂 Ha! I love it! Actually, for what it's worth, I find it quite helpful to hear how you are navigating the dating scene now. Funny how a two word text started such a discourse. Yes please let us know Well, that's good if it's helpful 🙂 His verbal response was reasonable and appropriate. But his behavior didn't change and neither did mine. So if he's actually fine with sending me multiple texts over several hours without getting a response from me until I've got time, then it'll be okay lol. I feel like I communicated upfront and accurately, so as long as my actions and words match, I've done my part. Another thing I've been trying to do more lately with online dating is ask the guy to clarify what he's looking for (briefly, like no more than a two sentence conversation, then changing the topic, not a big deal). If he gives me a wishy-washy answer, then we're probably not in the same emotional place (and it gives me avoidant vibes), plus when he inevitably then asks what I want and I'm straight-forward about it, it scares off guys who aren't actually open to potential relationships. They filter themselves out for me! I just did this (with a different guy, not the good morning texter). I asked, then he asked. I went into a bit of detail to clarify what I meant, since his answer was vaguely-worded and I had to respond to something he had written in quotation marks. (He also referred to wanting to get married as settling, before I said anything about what I want, so that set off avoidant alarm bells anyway.) But summarizing what I said, it was, I'm looking for a relationship long-term, so as long as both of us are open to that possibility and share eventual goals, then it doesn't exclude anything. But I'm not looking to jump into a relationship with just anyone in front of me, I want to get to know each other and see if we connect and it's the right person. His response? He apologized for offending me and said good luck. Omg, I wasn't offended at all, so he's done me a favor because communication between us seems like it would be difficult! |
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Post by alexandra on Jun 28, 2020 1:16:41 GMT
Quick update on good morning guy -- the texting has all but fizzled out. I'm pretty sure he's AP and that he saw my slowing things down to not be a breakneck speed as my not being very interested. Which wasn't true at first, I just wanted to get to know each other more organically. I feel like there's already been a whirlwind of drama over only a couple dates (though there hasn't actually been any drama at all, but he tried to fast-forward things so that's how I ended up feeling), and that it's simply not going to go anywhere at this point.
I stick by my initial advice about it on this thread because it'll shake out pretty quickly what the guy's boundaries actually are in how he responds and if actions and words align! Don't assume AP, just be curious and communicate boundaries and let the person show you what they will.
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