Post by doctora on Dec 15, 2020 7:10:03 GMT
Hi....I’m looking for support online because I just don’t know what to make of my story. The mind-f***ery is beyond. This is long so if you can read it, kudos.
I am 33F, A/P turned secure, my ex is 36M. Met in HS when I was 14, he 17. Were good friends, started dating much later on when he was 25 and I was 22, when he was in the military (we wrote letters to eachother and Skyped for 6 months before meeting again in person, and started living together right away.)
We def felt like “soulmates”-same sense of humor, interests, and we had mutual friends as well. In retrospect there was some DA/AP behavior but it was lighter than what it would eventually turn into.
When I was 25, I wanted to take a break with him from what I now realize was me getting sick of the avoidance. But it was also a protest behavior, I wanted him to fight for me, etc. He did - when I finally gave in and wanted to work things out, that’s when he flipped and went full DA.
From 2013-2020, we had a typical AP/DA dynamic with no real progress. He would break up, Id reach out a few months to a year later. This happened multiple times, prob 1-2x/year. It was excruciating because life was being lived without a real relationship with him, I also was unabashedly A/P and blamed everything on myself. In this time, separately, we both got professional degrees, he went to med school, I went to PT school, etc etc.
I didn’t know ANYTHING about attachment theory even though I was in therapy (thanks for nothing, therapist...jk. But that he didn’t tell me about it shocks me). I intuitively knew what was going on...I even got involved with a narcissist at one point in what I think was my way of learning that my DA was not a full on narcissist.
Anyway, summer 2019 we somehow initiated contact again, tried couples therapy with a cheap, terrible therapist online and it did more harm than good. He broke up with me during therapy - I only discovered the attachment theory stuff right around that last session. Only after therapy ended did I read The Jeb Kinneson book, around September 2019. It was insane. This was the real revelation when I realized just how avoidant he was. I didn’t reach out, though. Then in March 2020 I got a serious case of COVID, and even though he’s a doctor, he didn’t call (he knew I was sick with it, his sister and parents called, so did our mutual friends).
I didn’t want to reach out, I was sticking to it....but then in June, when hanging with mutual friends, one of them mentioned that he really wants kids. We always had talked about kids and marriage. So I figured, ok, it’s worth a shot. We’re getting old, we both want the same things in life, and I always though that if it were not for this stupid dynamic, we’d be great together. I gave him the jeb kinneson book through a mutual friend in June. A few weeks later he texted me asking to talk.
In summary, he realized he was avoidant. Even his childhood and everything, it was like a perfect recipe for a DA. We agreed to go to a real couples therapist this time, and started in August. An attachment therapist. He apologized for all the stuff before (not that he completely remembered) and said he was going to not leave and be patient this time. He admitted he never prioritized me or the relationship and that it maybe wasn’t all my fault after all.
Things were going OK, but two weeks ago, we got into a small (I mean, really, it was quite resolvable) disagreement/misunderstanding about some medical subject...it could have been anything...he ended up asking for two weeks of space in which he vilified me, and ended up leaving again. I asked him to look at freetoattach.com. After this, he said he read that website, all about avoidant attachment, he kept texting that he needed to talk to me, so I knew a breakup was coming. I started crafting the letter below before the therapy session. Sure enough I was right - he broke up during the session. Some “proof” that his decision to break up was based on the avoidant attachment, was he was SO angry at me at the break-up session - it made no sense! I hadn’t really done anything. Anyway, the letter I sent:
Dear (Ex):
I agreed to do therapy this time because I was under the impression that we would both show up and commit to the process, and get real about it, so we could update our narrative and move in the right direction. I was excited because I always thought we had the materials to build an awesome relationship. I was very hopeful and had every reason in the world to be so - this time around you approached me after reading the book, and we are armed with information, resources, and a therapist - an attachment therapist no less. Going into this, I knew, for a fact, that I would do some of the “anxious” things I am used to doing, and that you would do some of the “avoidant” things that you’re used to doing. I’d assumed we both knew it was going to happen, but that this time it would be different because we were willing to take accountability and be committed to staying the course and letting the process take place. This is why we talked that time (and seemed to agree) about having patience and leaving room for conflict and error. They are not just something to be tolerated - they are necessary if we’re actually going to change how we relate. And I did and would have continued to take accountability for my part.
I am sorry that this is hard for you in any way, and overwhelming, and scary, and at this point it makes perfect sense why therapy and continuing this process would be scary and difficult - and I get that those feelings (and even guilt, apparently) turn into aversion towards me. But changing the pattern is a choice you can make now, as an adult. I also understand some things take more time to process, so I wouldn’t go about this decision to continue or not continue therapy lightly.
At the time I am writing this (Monday night) I am operating under the expectation that you will end things and cite incompatibility at the session tomorrow. You may cite other stuff, too - the “why” could be anything really (because really the underlying why is the same). So this is my suggestion, take it or leave it: I think doing individual therapy is a great idea. Take a few months and decide what you want to do. I will welcome you with open arms if you are able to be consistent and commit to the process of healing and improving our relationship and working through our issues so we can be together happily. I would do my half, if you do yours. I understand that might be unfamiliar, but there are roadmaps and solutions out there and a therapist on our team. Leaving after 1-2 “real” sessions with the therapist is just not really giving this a chance no matter what way you spin it. It’s not giving me a chance, it’s not giving you a chance, and it’s not giving therapy a chance either. Don't be so sure of failure that you don't even try.
Go to therapy, take your time, figure your stuff out…I’m willing to wait around here for a little if you are working on yourself...but I don’t ever, ever want to do this again.This was so, so, so, unfair to me. This was not kind of you - you even wanted to do this without a therapist there, to just get it over with?And completely disregard my feelings for safety?With no communication?If you like me, as a person, if you liked me as a friend, as well as a partner, this is not something you do to someone you like.Even though I understand this is something you do to people you love.
Don’t casually contact me for anything. Contact me when - and only if - you’ve done some work on yourself and want to work on our relationship.I will assume that you are sticking to your decision to not do so unless I hear explicitly otherwise.However, I don't want you to feel any shame if you do decide to come back and work on it.Again- I will assume that you are sticking to your decision unless I hear from you, and do NOT reach out to me unless you are ready to do your half and work on our relationship, without leaving before it even gets started. And certainly don't reach out to me to confirm your decision - that would be sadistic.
So think about it. I said I'd give a certain date, but I will keep it to myself, because ultimately that's a promise to myself. But I am giving some time. Again, do NOT contact me unless you are going to do your half, like I am willing to do mine now.
Love,
(Me)
The plan was to internally give him a chance to rebound since maybe this was like an avoidant relapse, but cut the cord forever (for my own health and sanity) in September 2021, by my 34th birthday.
I have always dreamed of having a family with him and yes I realize this is a fantasy relationship
of hopes alone, but even the therapist could see the potential. So those were my honest boundaries, permissible as they may seem.
I really felt the need to pull out all the stops because, well, I felt like my ex DOES want it to work, and that I’m getting older and literally cannot do this anymore, and if somethings gonna change, it has to soon. Like, Hail Mary pass, this is it for me. I even sent a text to his best friend, after asking if we could talk, after which he replied he’s staying out of this: (I cut out some of it)
“Fine. I just wish someone close to him would call him out on this, because it would benefit HIM. Addictions are more socially acceptable than attachment issues, I guess, to intervene in, but this is destructive to both of us....And it's not because of OUR chemistry, although the notion that's the case enables his avoidance ("We Just don't get along, were not good for eachother, I just wanna date someone 'nice.'") There was no "this" - no drama, no incompatibility, no real criticism, no controlling him, no real argument. I was and have been totally willing to work things out, meet his needs, and follow the guidance of the therapist....he's in DENIAL. He runs when there's a chance for closeness, looking for reasons to run. He doesn't want to resolve an argument because doing so would bring us closer. He goes from loving to rejecting as if he has a switch, when he's triggered, and it's not a coincidence, it's all part of his attachment thing that he and I both know about. He imagines/projects stuff so it's easier to distance himself, because relationships are sometimes hard. So you can stay as far out of it as you want of course, but I'm not kidding - I'm not a crazy manipulative ex, I'm a woman he was talking about having kids and a dog with not just 4 weeks ago. I made myself available and then he runs. Its excruciating, and yeah, the fact that no one cares enough to call him out on it makes it worse. I'm sorry for the rant, but please consider this: that he wants this to work out and is so scared of failure that he runs. Maybe he needs encouragement. That's all. Thanks and goodnight.”
Keep in mind that our mutual friends - even his best friend- have kept in touch with me through all the breakups and like me. And knew we were trying to reconcile. But they’re all a little avoidant and don’t know about this attachment theory stuff too much.
Anyway....His sister told me today that he told his mom this weekend that he is looking seriously for a wife and it will not be me. He’s dead set on finding a “nice” girl. I actually am not super phased by this, I mean, it feeds right into the DA stuff, just slightly discouraged. His sister, who has never really tried talking to him about me in any kind of influential way, may actually try to talk to him about whether losing me is something he really wants to do.
So my question is this:
HOW THE HELL DO I GET OVER THIS? My god, I wish I had the strength to just cut this out of my heart and body and brain. I have done everything and beyond, and I feel like every time I feel secure, I miss him and think of how it could be different if he was secure, we try again and it leaves me crazy. This is crazy making!!!! I feel humiliated in front of our friends who likely just think we’re nuts. And yes, I know why I started off A/P, I am aware of my stuff! Lots of family of origin stuff, etc etc. I have been working on it and actually I do feel secure....when I’m not being actually abandoned by my ex!!!! I’m actually not scared of being abandoned - I consider it likely at this point, but was willing to risk it if he could actually change.
WILL HE REGRET THIS??? for the love of god, I’ve been waiting for years for him to have some kind of realization. Will he regret it once I’m gone??? I mean, he always has said he loves me, but WHERE is this love?? How does this love manifest?? He says he misses me...but it’s Always like, months after dumping me! Also, he KNOWS HE IS AVOIDANT NOW! Why is he not willing to do the work? Would he rather test fate and end up with someone who won’t challenge him? Or end up with no one?? He told the therapist in private that he loves me too. The therapist said he’s not capable right now, because he has every reason to do the work. She also said his level of avoidance is like abandoned in an orphanage level.
I am so frustrated. Did I do the right thing? Am I crazy for believing this could have changed?
And I am so, so sad. When all is said and done I am so attached to him and we make eachother laugh and I can see us going on adventures into old age. I wanted a family with this person so bad. And I’ve dated other people who were secure, and ive dated people who’ve wanted a future with me. But I always held a candle for my DA ex. I am at the age where I can’t wait for him to grow anymore....he either steps up soon or it’s game over, I’ll end up being married and having children with someone else. He’s totally disrespected/disregarded my timeline
(And my feelings....in general, he’s been a real dick). I feel like if he doesn’t come back, I will forever become the phantom ex for him.
Please give me some perspective. I do not want this in my life anymore. I am a good friend, daughter, girlfriend, professional, I’m a musician, I speak several languages, I’m going to be a great mom, I have so much going for me....and I would lie if I said I didn’t feel like a rejected piece of garbage by this.
Will he end up going through this with someone who isn’t me and then regret not working it out with me? WHY DO I CARE?
god I wish I could just not care anymore. I’ve done all I can!!!!!
to anyone who read this, you are a champ. If it had worked out with my ex, or does, itll be a success story if one of the most avoidant people EVER coming back to an ex.
I am 33F, A/P turned secure, my ex is 36M. Met in HS when I was 14, he 17. Were good friends, started dating much later on when he was 25 and I was 22, when he was in the military (we wrote letters to eachother and Skyped for 6 months before meeting again in person, and started living together right away.)
We def felt like “soulmates”-same sense of humor, interests, and we had mutual friends as well. In retrospect there was some DA/AP behavior but it was lighter than what it would eventually turn into.
When I was 25, I wanted to take a break with him from what I now realize was me getting sick of the avoidance. But it was also a protest behavior, I wanted him to fight for me, etc. He did - when I finally gave in and wanted to work things out, that’s when he flipped and went full DA.
From 2013-2020, we had a typical AP/DA dynamic with no real progress. He would break up, Id reach out a few months to a year later. This happened multiple times, prob 1-2x/year. It was excruciating because life was being lived without a real relationship with him, I also was unabashedly A/P and blamed everything on myself. In this time, separately, we both got professional degrees, he went to med school, I went to PT school, etc etc.
I didn’t know ANYTHING about attachment theory even though I was in therapy (thanks for nothing, therapist...jk. But that he didn’t tell me about it shocks me). I intuitively knew what was going on...I even got involved with a narcissist at one point in what I think was my way of learning that my DA was not a full on narcissist.
Anyway, summer 2019 we somehow initiated contact again, tried couples therapy with a cheap, terrible therapist online and it did more harm than good. He broke up with me during therapy - I only discovered the attachment theory stuff right around that last session. Only after therapy ended did I read The Jeb Kinneson book, around September 2019. It was insane. This was the real revelation when I realized just how avoidant he was. I didn’t reach out, though. Then in March 2020 I got a serious case of COVID, and even though he’s a doctor, he didn’t call (he knew I was sick with it, his sister and parents called, so did our mutual friends).
I didn’t want to reach out, I was sticking to it....but then in June, when hanging with mutual friends, one of them mentioned that he really wants kids. We always had talked about kids and marriage. So I figured, ok, it’s worth a shot. We’re getting old, we both want the same things in life, and I always though that if it were not for this stupid dynamic, we’d be great together. I gave him the jeb kinneson book through a mutual friend in June. A few weeks later he texted me asking to talk.
In summary, he realized he was avoidant. Even his childhood and everything, it was like a perfect recipe for a DA. We agreed to go to a real couples therapist this time, and started in August. An attachment therapist. He apologized for all the stuff before (not that he completely remembered) and said he was going to not leave and be patient this time. He admitted he never prioritized me or the relationship and that it maybe wasn’t all my fault after all.
Things were going OK, but two weeks ago, we got into a small (I mean, really, it was quite resolvable) disagreement/misunderstanding about some medical subject...it could have been anything...he ended up asking for two weeks of space in which he vilified me, and ended up leaving again. I asked him to look at freetoattach.com. After this, he said he read that website, all about avoidant attachment, he kept texting that he needed to talk to me, so I knew a breakup was coming. I started crafting the letter below before the therapy session. Sure enough I was right - he broke up during the session. Some “proof” that his decision to break up was based on the avoidant attachment, was he was SO angry at me at the break-up session - it made no sense! I hadn’t really done anything. Anyway, the letter I sent:
Dear (Ex):
I agreed to do therapy this time because I was under the impression that we would both show up and commit to the process, and get real about it, so we could update our narrative and move in the right direction. I was excited because I always thought we had the materials to build an awesome relationship. I was very hopeful and had every reason in the world to be so - this time around you approached me after reading the book, and we are armed with information, resources, and a therapist - an attachment therapist no less. Going into this, I knew, for a fact, that I would do some of the “anxious” things I am used to doing, and that you would do some of the “avoidant” things that you’re used to doing. I’d assumed we both knew it was going to happen, but that this time it would be different because we were willing to take accountability and be committed to staying the course and letting the process take place. This is why we talked that time (and seemed to agree) about having patience and leaving room for conflict and error. They are not just something to be tolerated - they are necessary if we’re actually going to change how we relate. And I did and would have continued to take accountability for my part.
I am sorry that this is hard for you in any way, and overwhelming, and scary, and at this point it makes perfect sense why therapy and continuing this process would be scary and difficult - and I get that those feelings (and even guilt, apparently) turn into aversion towards me. But changing the pattern is a choice you can make now, as an adult. I also understand some things take more time to process, so I wouldn’t go about this decision to continue or not continue therapy lightly.
At the time I am writing this (Monday night) I am operating under the expectation that you will end things and cite incompatibility at the session tomorrow. You may cite other stuff, too - the “why” could be anything really (because really the underlying why is the same). So this is my suggestion, take it or leave it: I think doing individual therapy is a great idea. Take a few months and decide what you want to do. I will welcome you with open arms if you are able to be consistent and commit to the process of healing and improving our relationship and working through our issues so we can be together happily. I would do my half, if you do yours. I understand that might be unfamiliar, but there are roadmaps and solutions out there and a therapist on our team. Leaving after 1-2 “real” sessions with the therapist is just not really giving this a chance no matter what way you spin it. It’s not giving me a chance, it’s not giving you a chance, and it’s not giving therapy a chance either. Don't be so sure of failure that you don't even try.
Go to therapy, take your time, figure your stuff out…I’m willing to wait around here for a little if you are working on yourself...but I don’t ever, ever want to do this again.This was so, so, so, unfair to me. This was not kind of you - you even wanted to do this without a therapist there, to just get it over with?And completely disregard my feelings for safety?With no communication?If you like me, as a person, if you liked me as a friend, as well as a partner, this is not something you do to someone you like.Even though I understand this is something you do to people you love.
Don’t casually contact me for anything. Contact me when - and only if - you’ve done some work on yourself and want to work on our relationship.I will assume that you are sticking to your decision to not do so unless I hear explicitly otherwise.However, I don't want you to feel any shame if you do decide to come back and work on it.Again- I will assume that you are sticking to your decision unless I hear from you, and do NOT reach out to me unless you are ready to do your half and work on our relationship, without leaving before it even gets started. And certainly don't reach out to me to confirm your decision - that would be sadistic.
So think about it. I said I'd give a certain date, but I will keep it to myself, because ultimately that's a promise to myself. But I am giving some time. Again, do NOT contact me unless you are going to do your half, like I am willing to do mine now.
Love,
(Me)
The plan was to internally give him a chance to rebound since maybe this was like an avoidant relapse, but cut the cord forever (for my own health and sanity) in September 2021, by my 34th birthday.
I have always dreamed of having a family with him and yes I realize this is a fantasy relationship
of hopes alone, but even the therapist could see the potential. So those were my honest boundaries, permissible as they may seem.
I really felt the need to pull out all the stops because, well, I felt like my ex DOES want it to work, and that I’m getting older and literally cannot do this anymore, and if somethings gonna change, it has to soon. Like, Hail Mary pass, this is it for me. I even sent a text to his best friend, after asking if we could talk, after which he replied he’s staying out of this: (I cut out some of it)
“Fine. I just wish someone close to him would call him out on this, because it would benefit HIM. Addictions are more socially acceptable than attachment issues, I guess, to intervene in, but this is destructive to both of us....And it's not because of OUR chemistry, although the notion that's the case enables his avoidance ("We Just don't get along, were not good for eachother, I just wanna date someone 'nice.'") There was no "this" - no drama, no incompatibility, no real criticism, no controlling him, no real argument. I was and have been totally willing to work things out, meet his needs, and follow the guidance of the therapist....he's in DENIAL. He runs when there's a chance for closeness, looking for reasons to run. He doesn't want to resolve an argument because doing so would bring us closer. He goes from loving to rejecting as if he has a switch, when he's triggered, and it's not a coincidence, it's all part of his attachment thing that he and I both know about. He imagines/projects stuff so it's easier to distance himself, because relationships are sometimes hard. So you can stay as far out of it as you want of course, but I'm not kidding - I'm not a crazy manipulative ex, I'm a woman he was talking about having kids and a dog with not just 4 weeks ago. I made myself available and then he runs. Its excruciating, and yeah, the fact that no one cares enough to call him out on it makes it worse. I'm sorry for the rant, but please consider this: that he wants this to work out and is so scared of failure that he runs. Maybe he needs encouragement. That's all. Thanks and goodnight.”
Keep in mind that our mutual friends - even his best friend- have kept in touch with me through all the breakups and like me. And knew we were trying to reconcile. But they’re all a little avoidant and don’t know about this attachment theory stuff too much.
Anyway....His sister told me today that he told his mom this weekend that he is looking seriously for a wife and it will not be me. He’s dead set on finding a “nice” girl. I actually am not super phased by this, I mean, it feeds right into the DA stuff, just slightly discouraged. His sister, who has never really tried talking to him about me in any kind of influential way, may actually try to talk to him about whether losing me is something he really wants to do.
So my question is this:
HOW THE HELL DO I GET OVER THIS? My god, I wish I had the strength to just cut this out of my heart and body and brain. I have done everything and beyond, and I feel like every time I feel secure, I miss him and think of how it could be different if he was secure, we try again and it leaves me crazy. This is crazy making!!!! I feel humiliated in front of our friends who likely just think we’re nuts. And yes, I know why I started off A/P, I am aware of my stuff! Lots of family of origin stuff, etc etc. I have been working on it and actually I do feel secure....when I’m not being actually abandoned by my ex!!!! I’m actually not scared of being abandoned - I consider it likely at this point, but was willing to risk it if he could actually change.
WILL HE REGRET THIS??? for the love of god, I’ve been waiting for years for him to have some kind of realization. Will he regret it once I’m gone??? I mean, he always has said he loves me, but WHERE is this love?? How does this love manifest?? He says he misses me...but it’s Always like, months after dumping me! Also, he KNOWS HE IS AVOIDANT NOW! Why is he not willing to do the work? Would he rather test fate and end up with someone who won’t challenge him? Or end up with no one?? He told the therapist in private that he loves me too. The therapist said he’s not capable right now, because he has every reason to do the work. She also said his level of avoidance is like abandoned in an orphanage level.
I am so frustrated. Did I do the right thing? Am I crazy for believing this could have changed?
And I am so, so sad. When all is said and done I am so attached to him and we make eachother laugh and I can see us going on adventures into old age. I wanted a family with this person so bad. And I’ve dated other people who were secure, and ive dated people who’ve wanted a future with me. But I always held a candle for my DA ex. I am at the age where I can’t wait for him to grow anymore....he either steps up soon or it’s game over, I’ll end up being married and having children with someone else. He’s totally disrespected/disregarded my timeline
(And my feelings....in general, he’s been a real dick). I feel like if he doesn’t come back, I will forever become the phantom ex for him.
Please give me some perspective. I do not want this in my life anymore. I am a good friend, daughter, girlfriend, professional, I’m a musician, I speak several languages, I’m going to be a great mom, I have so much going for me....and I would lie if I said I didn’t feel like a rejected piece of garbage by this.
Will he end up going through this with someone who isn’t me and then regret not working it out with me? WHY DO I CARE?
god I wish I could just not care anymore. I’ve done all I can!!!!!to anyone who read this, you are a champ. If it had worked out with my ex, or does, itll be a success story if one of the most avoidant people EVER coming back to an ex.
