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Post by flappingpenguins on Jan 2, 2022 15:15:51 GMT
I'm new here, and new to attachment theory. I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this, since although these days I get "secure" in all the online tests, and the description is entirely consistent with my reality, I've had some recent and historical experiences that I'm finding quite confusing. Perhaps someone can explain them.
I did not have a secure childhood due to bereavement and probably was fearfully avoidant in my youth.
After a long and unfulfilling marriage I played the field a bit, and found confidence in myself but never the "spark" I was hoping for with someone.
After this period I felt certain if the right person came along I would "know it when I saw it" and recently I've been the very definition of secure, emotionally available and confident, comfortable with intimacy and independence, all of it.
I recently met someone who was everything I wanted and I felt that magic I'd been looking for. All was well for a while, it seemed to be a good balance of mutual respect for each other's independence and time apart, and getting closer each time we were together. Then came the notorious dismissive avoidant pivot, and the start of a number of what I now know to be her deactivating strategies.
I continued to try, without pressuring her, but she became super critical, distant, aloof, saying she was looking forward to seeing me and then blanking me when we were together... It was text book.
In the end I catalysed a conversation that resulted in it ending. Mainly because I'd been experiencing the kind of anxiety that anxiously attached people describe, and it felt fundamentally wrong.
I very much miss the person I knew at the beginning, but am relieved that the anxiety is no more. I'm also variously angry at myself for honestly trying and being overtly mistreated without complaint for several weeks, and my innate confidence has taken a blow. Ive never experienced such a rapid change of direction, and the explanation was essentially a collection of trivial things that any rational person who really felt like that at the start would have overlooked.
I'm not sure what my actual question is now, but everything I've read about dismissive avoidants is the toxic relationship with the anxious type, not their ability to undermine a secure person. Has anyone else ever experienced this?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2022 16:48:47 GMT
Welcome. What do you mean you would "know it if you saw it"?
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Post by flappingpenguins on Jan 2, 2022 18:11:58 GMT
Welcome. What do you mean you would "know it if you saw it"? I guess finding someone with whom I felt an emotional, physical and intellectual connection. At least one of the three tends to be missing for me. I suspect this experience was just "activated attachment" combined with some sort of external validation. I've not experienced this before. It is quite confusing. Clearly in this case the emotional connection turned out to be false, but it was very convincing
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 2, 2022 18:30:29 GMT
Welcome. What do you mean you would "know it if you saw it"? I guess finding someone with whom I felt an emotional, physical and intellectual connection. At least one of the three tends to be missing for me. I suspect this experience was just "activated attachment" combined with some sort of external validation. I've not experienced this before. It is quite confusing. Clearly in this case the emotional connection turned out to be false, but it was very convincing I would be very wary of blame…rarely is one person in the dynamic responsible when there are challenges. Exactly why was your marriage unfulfilling? Have you considered that perhaps you are chasing a fantasy person who does not exist (which would make you unavailable to a healthy relationship)? I would spend a bit more time analyzing your own criteria…sparks isn’t necessarily a sign of a healthy partner…it is usually 2 insecure who are paying too much attention to their fantasy partner signals…”this could be it” rather then a slow a steady pace.
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Post by flappingpenguins on Jan 2, 2022 20:11:55 GMT
The accusation of pursuing a fantasy whilst being unreceptive to something real but not immediately "blown away" is certainly something I've been asking myself after this latest experience.
I was blown away but it was an illusion, in the end.
I'm re-evaluating a lot of things right now. I thought I'd crystallised what I wanted through a process of experiencing things I didn't want, but apparently I'm not there yet. I certainly can't handle dismissive avoidant behaviour
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Post by flappingpenguins on Jan 2, 2022 20:21:31 GMT
But my question really is whether a relationship with a dismissive avoidant can make a secure person veer into anxious territory. The literature suggests that the expected outcome is that the avoidant is moderated by the secure. Which did not happen in my case.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 2, 2022 21:10:59 GMT
But my question really is whether a relationship with a dismissive avoidant can make a secure person veer into anxious territory. The literature suggests that the expected outcome is that the avoidant is moderated by the secure. Which did not happen in my case. The answer is yes. An avoidant can cause another person to feel anxious. Someone AP can cause someone secure to feel avoidant. I think the literature often has it backwards. A lot of it does suggest the insecure person must find a secure partner to model healthy interactions for them, and that is the easiest way to become more secure. My opinion is, someone in earnest interested in changing and healing themselves will do better with a secure partner in the sense that the partner will not trigger and distract them and add to the problem, leaving enough space for the insecure person to work on getting more secure if they so choose. But the partner being secure on its own does not "fix" the insecure partner, and more often an insecure partner may establish a secure attachment with the secure partner without actually changing their overall attachment style in general. Or, what you experienced will happen, which is that the person is so insecure that the secure partner feels off and eventually needs to walk away and heal from the experience. Again, it's not impossible for an insecure person to improve and earn secure with a more secure partner, but they need to want to and be open to growth and change, and not everyone is ready or willing. So your experience makes sense. More often, when there's a big change towards secure, a person who has started growing already will start to gravitate towards more secure partners because they are ready for that kind of dynamic, rather than the secure partner inspired them to start the process. I actually know someone who shares your issue. The person tests secure and is in theory secure and is aware of attachment theory and goes to therapy, but had weird childhood circumstances and is kind of primed to be attracted to insecure people who remind them of it. They really struggle with feeling attracted to other secure people and establishing stable relationships though don't want to be with someone emotionally unavailable and now choose to leave those situations. So there ends up being an idea of an unattainable fantasy (yearn for an attraction, experiencing something different), and that's one case I can't fully crack. I've apparently helped but they have been at work trying to figure this out for a couple years and still aren't there yet. I sometimes wonder if I have pulled out all the insight and there's nothing more to it than the person isn't actually ready to get there yet and be settled down yet no matter what they say (actions and words not aligned), though they've shown growth in that direction for a while so maybe they are getting there. Sometimes you just need to be patient with yourself as you learn and figure things out because it does take time, though not BS yourself in order to let yourself off the hook.
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Post by flappingpenguins on Jan 2, 2022 21:58:40 GMT
That's helpful thank you.
I think I'm probably similar, in the sense that whilst I'm secure, my comfort zone (what I'm used to)... is people who neglect me. In childhood, adolescence, and almost 2 decades of marriage
More going on than mere attachment theory perhaps
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Post by alexandra on Jan 2, 2022 22:16:50 GMT
I think it is also about values and priorities. That person prioritizes the intensity and connection of physical intimacy. Wants strong intellectual and emotional connection (and values it in people in general), yet still chooses overwhelming physical attraction every time. That as the primary driver doesn't tend to translate to the best relationships as people spend the majority of their time outside of the bedroom. Now that person is examining more about why that is the priority (versus it existing together in balance with the other types of connections) if it's not making them happy. There's still some healing the past and working on the current relationship with yourself stuff going on in these cases, in my opinion. There's a reason you'll be choosing something that isn't working, and it may mean introspecting through a lot of layers to figure out what underlying needs you're actually trying to get met by another person and why and if the expectations (and perhaps the tradeoffs in prioritizing certain things over other things) are reasonable.
I'm not advocating settling or discounting the physical attraction aspect in this example being important btw, but I don't usually see people happily fulfilled longer-term in situations where physical attraction is the entire basis. In my own experiences included.
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Post by anne12 on Jan 3, 2022 0:34:36 GMT
… But my question really is whether a relationship with a dismissive avoidant can make a secure person veer into anxious territory.. - yes A Secure person can be pushed into insecure attatchmentstyle by one single relationship
Your brain dosent understand if you say, think - I DONT want a partner who is x; y, x.
Focus on what you want instead..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2022 4:02:28 GMT
Welcome. What do you mean you would "know it if you saw it"? I guess finding someone with whom I felt an emotional, physical and intellectual connection. At least one of the three tends to be missing for me. I suspect this experience was just "activated attachment" combined with some sort of external validation. I've not experienced this before. It is quite confusing. Clearly in this case the emotional connection turned out to be false, but it was very convincing It appears anne12 has answered your question. Best of luck!
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Post by flappingpenguins on Jan 3, 2022 6:30:25 GMT
I think it is also about values and priorities. That person prioritizes the intensity and connection of physical intimacy. Wants strong intellectual and emotional connection (and values it in people in general), yet still chooses overwhelming physical attraction every time. That as the primary driver doesn't tend to translate to the best relationships as people spend the majority of their time outside of the bedroom. Now that person is examining more about why that is the priority (versus it existing together in balance with the other types of connections) if it's not making them happy. There's still some healing the past and working on the current relationship with yourself stuff going on in these cases, in my opinion. There's a reason you'll be choosing something that isn't working, and it may mean introspecting through a lot of layers to figure out what underlying needs you're actually trying to get met by another person and why and if the expectations (and perhaps the tradeoffs in prioritizing certain things over other things) are reasonable. I'm not advocating settling or discounting the physical attraction aspect in this example being important btw, but I don't usually see people happily fulfilled longer-term in situations where physical attraction is the entire basis. In my own experiences included. This is an insightful point, since I actually said that in this case at least at the beginning I felt all 3 things were there and it was mutual. But certainly in hindsight the emotional connection was severed after her sudden pivot and deactivating strategies. After that the connection remained intellectual and physical (though only at times of her instigation). I think my attachment was principally driven physically. If I'm honest with myself had she been less attractive I doubt I would have persisted. I guess we all refine what we want by experiencing things we don't For me I think the reason for this is simply validation. Demonstrating that one is "good enough" by having something that feels difficult to attain or has that air of confidence. But without the real connection it rings hollow very quickly. The loss when it ends is not about losing the person (they had stopped being present already) but losing the self esteem one garners by having someone outwardly desirable
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Post by blkgirlfree on Jan 22, 2022 17:43:43 GMT
But my question really is whether a relationship with a dismissive avoidant can make a secure person veer into anxious territory. The literature suggests that the expected outcome is that the avoidant is moderated by the secure. Which did not happen in my case. Yes, it’s possible. I have a secure attachment style (and can lean DA when I’m single) and I developed anxious attachment traits when I began dating a man who’s on the DA spectrum. Like you, I recognized that I didn’t feel like myself and I ended the relationship. I also don’t buy the notion that a secure person can make an avoidant less avoidant. That’s internal work they need therapy to mediate.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 22, 2022 21:52:18 GMT
The secure person doesn't make the insecure less insecure (neither avoidant nor anxious), but they model what healthy relating and a secure connection can look like. So IF the insecure person is at a point in their life that they are receptive and growth-oriented, this can help them as it creates space for them to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't trigger them as they do their own individual growth work. However, it's NOT a romantic partner's responsibility to be a therapist or parent their partner, and it's detrimental to the secure style person if the insecure style person isn't meeting their basic romantic relationship needs. So I don't think a secure person would create much change for an unaware insecure, and they can help someone insecure's in-progress process in certain ways but shouldn't be expected to... especially not at their own detriment.
As I said above, I really hate all the advice I see that the way to change an insecure attachment style is date someone secure. It's only a small part of the bigger individual picture, and it isn't the magic easy answer or even main driver of change. On the other hand, this should actually be empowering for the insecure attacher, that it is internally-driven and change is not reliant on finding some unicorn person.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2022 22:27:54 GMT
The secure person doesn't make the insecure less insecure (neither avoidant nor anxious), but they model what healthy relating and a secure connection can look like. So IF the insecure person is at a point in their life that they are receptive and growth-oriented, this can help them as it creates space for them to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't trigger them as they do their own individual growth work. However, it's NOT a romantic partner's responsibility to be a therapist or parent their partner, and it's detrimental to the secure style person if the insecure style person isn't meeting their basic romantic relationship needs. So I don't think a secure person would create much change for an unaware insecure, and they can help someone insecure's in-progress process in certain ways but shouldn't be expected to... especially not at their own detriment. As I said above, I really hate all the advice I see that the way to change an insecure attachment style is date someone secure. It's only a small part of the bigger individual picture, and it isn't the magic easy answer or even main driver of change. On the other hand, this should actually be empowering for the insecure attacher, that it is internally-driven and change is not reliant on finding some unicorn person. This, 1000% accurate. I wish there was a FAQ section where answers like this could be featured lol.
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