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Post by seeking on Jan 30, 2022 2:55:38 GMT
I don't think anyone is saying accept ambivalent relationships, force anything, or settle for not feeling anything. I, at least, am saying if there's a connection to build on, one way to stop obsessing over flaws is to see someone as a whole person and not a pros and cons checklist. It's also hard to turn off seeing your partner as a source of validation for everyone else (other people respecting you more for having a partner who fills whatever superficial cultural values that define what's attractive at the moment), but it's ultimately another construct in the mind of the individual that doesn't mean anything. Since I was insecure, I get it, I've done it myself, and I felt like the most popular guy in school was paying attention to me or something in those moments... but I was an adult, so no one actually cared... except me. And why did I care? It was because I was insecure and didn't trust myself and had the perceived voices and narratives of others in my head. But approaching each new person in constant judgement closes off one's emotional availability (that pesky avoidant side rearing its head). Yes, if there's no connection or attraction after a few conversations / dates, or there's a bad feeling or even just red flags and dealbreakers, don't waste your time. There's layers of insecurity in here I'm seeing in the posts though, both anxious and avoidant, that are steering, even if they're really difficult to consciously parse out. Having been both on the insecure and secure sides, I'm attempting to try to present what I learned about the framing going into seeking new connections that allowed me to be actually open to a partner instead of searching endlessly for something unobtainable (as I wasn't solid enough in myself for anyone to fill those gaps for me) and choosing the avoidant edge every time (which then failed). It took me a lot of time and introspection to figure this out, and again, my actual choices in partners and who I felt attracted to did NOT shift until my security in myself grew. But again, I was coming from AP only and that's only the anxious side, and you need to add in more steps to address the avoidant side as well. Which was what I was attempting to do with identifying a framework that doesn't focus on flaws which inevitably sounds like it leads to deactivation. This is so so good. You are so articulate and the way you describe things truly hits home for me. That just landed in my body. And I get it. Am I there? No. Sadly. But I get it now.
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 30, 2022 5:39:34 GMT
Agree. alexandra You really have a way with words. Have you considered writing content for attachment? I get what you are saying, but I'm also insanely frustrated. I have so many layers to my maladapted behaviors and so much trauma piled on top that I peel one off and there are just more under it. I am a quick learner and so I just want to logic my way through this and I can't. And I don't think this is even close to the top of my list of things to work on, but it feels like it impacts me forming a meaningful connection. But since my safety is more important and I've discovered my boundaries start to slip when I get attached I am working to address those and trusting myself that when I think I see a red flag, it probably is. I am hoping though that through some of my other work maybe some of these other things will start to come along on their own. Maybe it's not an onion but a tangled ball of yarn.
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Post by seeking on Jan 30, 2022 15:34:45 GMT
I'm also insanely frustrated. I have so many layers to my maladapted behaviors and so much trauma piled on top that I peel one off and there are just more under it. I am a quick learner and so I just want to logic my way through this and I can't. And I don't think this is even close to the top of my list of things to work on, but it feels like it impacts me forming a meaningful connection. But since my safety is more important and I've discovered my boundaries start to slip when I get attached I am working to address those and trusting myself that when I think I see a red flag, it probably is. I am hoping though that through some of my other work maybe some of these other things will start to come along on their own. Maybe it's not an onion but a tangled ball of yarn. I am doing this too. When I think I see a red flag, I think it is. I had this in my last dating experience. My body was like a scared bird around him. I thought it was just my own "issues" since my therapist at the time said I was like a rescue dog. So I was imagining myself like a scared rescue dog. But I kept sensing something. My daughter met him and she did not do well with him but I could see her trying. Then one day, I asked what really happened in his marriage - I had heard "his side" but I said, "yknow there are always 2 sides" and when he told me, I pretty much ended it right there. I fawned about it - but while it was just a fight - the details were enough of a red flag for me with everything I'd been through. Anyway, I think what gets hard for me is the dating game. It's so rough out there (at least for me) that I find myself making exceptions I normally would not make. Which is why I even started this thread, to see if there are places I can go to give myself a leg up on wading through really awful profile after profile and then finding one I like and that guy already knows he can get like 20 woman easily, and I don't stand the competition.... The key for me is really staying with myself, my body, and listening to the cues and differentiating (which is the hard part) - maybe using alexandra's list - super hard to do in the moment. And I guess if you're like me it helps to have support from others who are doing this work and get it.
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Post by seeking on Jan 30, 2022 23:14:35 GMT
So I talked to the guy. He had a really surprisingly nice voice with a lot of prosody, lol. It's calming. He has some really intelligent thoughts on things. That's kind of a good start. We talked quick b/c he had to run to something else.
And I was left feeling a little stupid. Because this is *already* the pattern. I say "Oh well, might as well get it over with" and call and do it to kind of "check off the box" (i.e., 'Not gonna work - another one bites the dust') and then am surprised, and feel like - Oh, whoops, ahem. Hello
There was a lot of warmth and kindness there. And sort of this sincerity that is rare with people. Like if you think of the opposite of someone who is ironic/cynical/dark. That type of personality is really jarring to me. Not in a bad way. More just like, 'Hi? Are you an alien?" Like how do you survive life for 57 years without being bitter?
Also, the thing that was already putting me off about him made a little more sense when we talked. On email he wasn't really asking about what I did - but on the phone he did, and when I told him, I could tell he wanted to say something, but knowing we didn't have more time - and people don't always know what to say to it - it provided more context. He seems like a really curious, engaging person.
That's all so far. I'll be on close watch of myself, lol. There will be something (probably in the next 24 hours that I will pick on and perseverate about and then deactivate). But let's see.
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 31, 2022 0:02:31 GMT
So I talked to the guy. He had a really surprisingly nice voice with a lot of prosody, lol. It's calming. He has some really intelligent thoughts on things. That's kind of a good start. We talked quick b/c he had to run to something else. And I was left feeling a little stupid. Because this is *already* the pattern. I say "Oh well, might as well get it over with" and call and do it to kind of "check off the box" (i.e., 'Not gonna work - another one bites the dust') and then am surprised, and feel like - Oh, whoops, ahem. Hello There was a lot of warmth and kindness there. And sort of this sincerity that is rare with people. Like if you think of the opposite of someone who is ironic/cynical/dark. That type of personality is really jarring to me. Not in a bad way. More just like, 'Hi? Are you an alien?" Like how do you survive life for 57 years without being bitter? Also, the thing that was already putting me off about him made a little more sense when we talked. On email he wasn't really asking about what I did - but on the phone he did, and when I told him, I could tell he wanted to say something, but knowing we didn't have more time - and people don't always know what to say to it - it provided more context. He seems like a really curious, engaging person. That's all so far. I'll be on close watch of myself, lol. There will be something (probably in the next 24 hours that I will pick on and perseverate about and then deactivate). But let's see. That is encouraging. Sometimes there are topics I only like to discuss on the phone / in person because text can't do them justice. As you are feeling right now, do you feel there is enough here for another conversation? From what you wrote it seems really positive but only you can answer that. If you find something to talk yourself out of this, then reflect back on the decision you just made. Sometimes when I was de-activating on my ex I had to use my logical brain to override my emotional brain. Like okay I am going to go on this date because all previous dates were enjoyable and there is no reason this one won't be as well. I had a date lastnight that had seemed promising but in one hour I found out he is depressed, anxious, describes his emotions as flat and is no contact with a narc mother. The only way I could describe it was he spewed his anxiety in all directions. His best case scenario for his life was living alone with two cats. It was a red flag Bonanza and parts of me are seeing the good in him because there was a lot of good there but I think anyone would be alarmed at his lack of judgement and boundaries. He wants to see me again and I never give them more then a vague reason when I decline but part of me feels like someone needs to be honest with him... Have a date tonight with the multiple long relationship guy. That one seems far more promising and I'm genuinely excited to meet him. I have never dated anyone like him before because I was swiping left on people who seemed too good for me. But it feels more like I'm dating at my level. He called me today to confirm and it was refreshing to have clear communication.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 31, 2022 0:18:09 GMT
I had a date lastnight that had seemed promising but in one hour I found out he is depressed, anxious, describes his emotions as flat and is no contact with a narc mother. The only way I could describe it was he spewed his anxiety in all directions. His best case scenario for his life was living alone with two cats. It was a red flag Bonanza and parts of me are seeing the good in him because there was a lot of good there but I think anyone would be alarmed at his lack of judgement and boundaries. He wants to see me again and I never give them more then a vague reason when I decline but part of me feels like someone needs to be honest with him... Meh. It's hard because you don't really know him and he's probably not going to receive deep or constructive feedback from you in any sort of beneficial way. If you are seeking advice on what to say, I'd suggest declining because you don't have the same life goals (I'm assuming you're not looking to live alone with two cats). It's not deeply critical or driving him to defensiveness, but it might make him think twice about oversharing on the first date and what he's looking for. Or he may just dig his heels in, "see? It happened again, I was right, living alone is the best I'll ever do." You can't help someone who only wants to vent and isn't looking to help themselves, though... and in my opinion, in a situation like this, if he was ready to help himself, he'd be taking a break from dating in the first place.
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Post by seeking on Jan 31, 2022 0:39:43 GMT
That is encouraging. Sometimes there are topics I only like to discuss on the phone / in person because text can't do them justice. As you are feeling right now, do you feel there is enough here for another conversation? From what you wrote it seems really positive but only you can answer that. If you find something to talk yourself out of this, then reflect back on the decision you just made. Sometimes when I was de-activating on my ex I had to use my logical brain to override my emotional brain. Like okay I am going to go on this date because all previous dates were enjoyable and there is no reason this one won't be as well. I had a date lastnight that had seemed promising but in one hour I found out he is depressed, anxious, describes his emotions as flat and is no contact with a narc mother. The only way I could describe it was he spewed his anxiety in all directions. His best case scenario for his life was living alone with two cats. It was a red flag Bonanza and parts of me are seeing the good in him because there was a lot of good there but I think anyone would be alarmed at his lack of judgement and boundaries. He wants to see me again and I never give them more then a vague reason when I decline but part of me feels like someone needs to be honest with him... Have a date tonight with the multiple long relationship guy. That one seems far more promising and I'm genuinely excited to meet him. I have never dated anyone like him before because I was swiping left on people who seemed too good for me. But it feels more like I'm dating at my level. He called me today to confirm and it was refreshing to have clear communication. Yeah, there would be nothing to talk myself out of right now. At all. We only had a short window to talk and would definitely talk more - he said let's try for something this week or the weekend. I would do phone again and then if things are still going okay, Zoom. And then try to meet (which is hard - as we are long-distance) (not a terribly long distance, but hours). A red-flag bonanza. Haha. But, I'm sorry... I hope you feel like you can move on from that (sounds like a train wreck indeed) I'm impressed by your dating! I don't even get to a phone call 95% of the time! Never mind a second phone call! Oh I'm excited about tonight's date. Def. keep us posted. That is exactly what I'm looking for - the seems a little too good for me/dating at my level (my best self sort of thing) ... those guys just never like me back (made amply clear in this thread by now!) But I really hope it goes well for you!
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Post by seeking on Jan 31, 2022 13:17:38 GMT
I'm just gonna share these observations here this morning. Not looking for help necessarily - just observing (if it helps anyone).
So the guy I talked to yesterday afternoon didn't email me (I don't think he actually has a smart phone - on purpose, which I respect) and I watched myself. I wouldn't say I got "panicky" but it was uncomfortable. I may or may not have checked my email 10 times (this is an email account I don't often use - so have to go into it separately). I did start to wonder. Because my thinking tends to be "he's less than" (not that I believe that, just observing this MIND), I feel like it's "in the bag," so it surprised me. Then I noticed myself slightly *more interested* - and then a little more respecting.
This morning, I saw an email from him - short and sweet - "nice talking. have a good week" kind of thing with one of his cheesy giant flower GIFs, lol. And even that felt a little like - that's it? (On the phone we said we would make a plan to maybe talk this week). "A good week" to my anxious, younger parts felt like an eternity.
Here's what is ALSO happening:
In my life, I made a list of things that are bugging me, that I'm dreading, that feel hard, etc.... everyone has one of these I'm sure. I did it so I don't live with vague anxiety and I can see what is causing my anxiety and then start to address the things (i.e., open the mail from the lawyer, sit down and do a budget, get the mammogram, talk to the friend, etc.) -- all the stuff I AVOID but that leaves me feeing ANXIOUS.
Underneath that, I'm observing something that I deal with -- the void. The emptiness. The "not filled" feeling. If I am calm, I've slept okay, I don't have a lot distracting me, there it is - familiar void. I think about other people's lives - waking up to run off to work, get the kids ready for school, run to the gym, grab a stimulant, etc. sleep until the alarm makes you jump out of bed. I'm just sitting here with my "stuff" - my loneliness, my sadness, my grief, my shock, my uncertainty, a day ahead of me of things that I "have to do" -
And I am also noticing, this guy didn't FILL THAT EMPTINESS. He can't. No one can.
They can seem to - for a little while - esp the avoidant ones (for me) - esp the complicated ones that my brain can then gnaw on like a dog with a juicy bone.
That is the DRUG -- it even happened with who became an "ex" friend now (the one I wrote about here). She had that kind of complicated, living on the edge life that was enough to keep me occupied, in it, and wrapped up. Our connection was pretty unhealthy and imbalancing.
I can see where steady, secure, non-drama is hard for me. And yet okay. Okay because what else is there? I did that for 50 years. I swam in buckets of adrenaline and pain. No thanks.
But this. This has it's own particular hell in a way.
And just noticing that this guy is NOT going to fix it.
So that puts me into a new thing in my life (potentially). Relating to someone in a sober way. (Could be him, could be anyone).
I also note that he doesn't seem like an addict or a recovering addict (like me) (and I'm talking about Love Addiction here). And that feels slightly alien. It makes me feel self-conscious and alone with my pain.
And, yet, I also know, if this person becomes more interested in me, I will likely withdraw. Maybe feel more alienated. The addict part of me will hide - maybe that is where I "deactivate" because I am not getting a "fix" (not sure, thinking this through).
When I'm not anxious, who am I? When I'm not avoiding, who am I? When I'm not pursuing someone (even in my mind) . . . When I'm not judging someone and differentiating from them to keep them away. . .
it is also worth noting, that I feel *jealous* of other addicts who found their perfect fix. That is wild to me. Not a proud moment. But honest.
Its been a long road of this. I have scenes in my mind replaying of all my most dramatic, addict moments that could probably win academy awards. I'm so glad that I'm not there anymore and I have a lot of compassion for that person. But I don't know "where" this is. It's not particularly comfortable, or pleasant. It's unfamiliar. it feels like I want to go back to the familiar. And, yet, I know that's not an option anymore.
So it's a little like being without a home. Feeling weary...
That is all for now. (Thanks for listening/reading).
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Post by alexandra on Jan 31, 2022 20:37:01 GMT
I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not because I've never looked into it, I just know it exists. But, there's a love addiction anonymous group that's been around since the 1970s. slaafws.org/loveaddictsanonymous.boards.net/You're definitely not alone in your feelings and experiences.
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Post by seeking on Jan 31, 2022 21:18:35 GMT
I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not because I've never looked into it, I just know it exists. But, there's a love addiction anonymous group that's been around since the 1970s. slaafws.org/loveaddictsanonymous.boards.net/You're definitely not alone in your feelings and experiences. Thanks. I will check it out. I am not where I was and have done alllll the work for 10+ years now. So I would not say I'm any longer in the throes of active addiction, but I can still sense the sort of residue of the void and with with it now (i.e., not act on it). I have done Pia Mellody, a lot of years of therapy on co-dependence, etc. But it's like never really done.
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 1, 2022 0:45:50 GMT
alexandra Thanks. You are 100% right and I ended up doing almost exactly that. Posting helped shake some things loose. I really deeply believed that someone who is a proper adult would not want to be with me. Yet to all my friends I am that adult. I had been dating down to stay safe. I've been picking men who are immature in some way. My last relationship was getting closer but there was still that element. So I have two types, I have unavailable avoidants, and then I have men who are not in the same place as me in life. who I feel sorry for and almost want to like take them under my wing and nurture them, but also feel safe because they look up to me. I think maybe I see parts of my wounded self in them. Which may or may not be projection. But on Saturday, I realized I don't want to relate to someone in that way anymore, I don't want to parent them or have to drag them along with me as I live my life. I want that energy for me and to continue building up myself. That is a major shift in my thinking that my time and my energy are precious. I think I recognized an old version of myself in him. Fresh out of my relationship with J, spewing my anxiety and damage all over someone, I've changed a lot since then. seeking My date lastnight was really nice and just affirmed all this for me. It felt like he is firmly able to take care of his own life. He is in counselling and doing the work. He actually asked me my attachment style! Hah. He believes he is AP but still learning about it (then my brain is like... maaaaybe he is FA). He did apologize for oversharing which showed awareness, but it wasn't even close to the same level as the other date. He seemed just really excited to talk to someone doing the same emotional work. A self aware AP feels like something I can navigate, J was an AP. But maybe I am delusional because I thought I could navigate an FA. I do know that closeness is easier for me because I can set boundaries where as withdrawal triggers me. Even if this goes no where I've identified a really good lesson that even my situationship could see. He once asked "why do you keep dating losers?" At the time I couldn't answer him, I can now. We had agreed to see each other again before the date was over, and I am looking forward to it. My only actual issue now is texting. In one way it has been nice to only text to arrange things, but part of me misses that reassurance that they like me. I also found myself a bit anxious waiting for a reply from my text that I had enjoyed our night but I reminded myself I have no evidence he won't, it wasn't nearly as bad as it used to be. I think it might be a good thing to casually bring up after the next date? I feel like I have co-opted your thread, I don't know the etiquette on this. We both seem to be going down a similar path so it felt appropriate but now I am wondering if I should start my own. Emptiness is definitely something I am working everyday to fill. I have started a list of things I like. I also just do any and every hobby that strikes my interest. Cross-stitch? Sure, Archery? Why not? who cares if I hate them, they show me who I am or am not, both useful. "And, yet, I also know, if this person becomes more interested in me, I will likely withdraw. Maybe feel more alienated. The addict part of me will hide - maybe that is where I "deactivate" because I am not getting a "fix" (not sure, thinking this through)." Maybe you deactivate because things working out is actually really scary? Because when you get close to someone they have power to hurt you and all your past experiences just reinforce this belief? I see it as you trying to protect yourself. A book you may like, that I found impactful was, "Why am I afraid to tell you who I am".
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Post by seeking on Feb 1, 2022 14:46:06 GMT
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Post by seeking on Feb 1, 2022 14:48:57 GMT
Maybe you deactivate because things working out is actually really scary? Because when you get close to someone they have power to hurt you and all your past experiences just reinforce this belief? I see it as you trying to protect yourself. A book you may like, that I found impactful was, "Why am I afraid to tell you who I am". I think it's not really scary in the way that people say when they say this. I think it's a feeling of being trapped, depending on the person. If it's an FA, I'd likely never feel trapped. (A Narc, though, maybe). Someone available, I'd feel suffocated. So yes, I kind of wish it were this - and I think to some degree it is (in any relationship). Your date sounds like it went well. I'd give anything to have what sounds like a normal date right now! I'm just in perpetual twilight zone.
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Post by seeking on Feb 9, 2022 16:42:20 GMT
alexandra Thanks. You are 100% right and I ended up doing almost exactly that. Posting helped shake some things loose. I really deeply believed that someone who is a proper adult would not want to be with me. Yet to all my friends I am that adult. I had been dating down to stay safe. I've been picking men who are immature in some way. My last relationship was getting closer but there was still that element. So I have two types, I have unavailable avoidants, and then I have men who are not in the same place as me in life. who I feel sorry for and almost want to like take them under my wing and nurture them, but also feel safe because they look up to me. I think maybe I see parts of my wounded self in them. Which may or may not be projection. But on Saturday, I realized I don't want to relate to someone in that way anymore, I don't want to parent them or have to drag them along with me as I live my life. I want that energy for me and to continue building up myself. That is a major shift in my thinking that my time and my energy are precious. I think I recognized an old version of myself in him. Fresh out of my relationship with J, spewing my anxiety and damage all over someone, I've changed a lot since then. seeking My date lastnight was really nice and just affirmed all this for me. It felt like he is firmly able to take care of his own life. He is in counselling and doing the work. He actually asked me my attachment style! Hah. He believes he is AP but still learning about it (then my brain is like... maaaaybe he is FA). He did apologize for oversharing which showed awareness, but it wasn't even close to the same level as the other date. He seemed just really excited to talk to someone doing the same emotional work. A self aware AP feels like something I can navigate, J was an AP. But maybe I am delusional because I thought I could navigate an FA. I do know that closeness is easier for me because I can set boundaries where as withdrawal triggers me. Even if this goes no where I've identified a really good lesson that even my situationship could see. He once asked "why do you keep dating losers?" At the time I couldn't answer him, I can now. We had agreed to see each other again before the date was over, and I am looking forward to it. My only actual issue now is texting. In one way it has been nice to only text to arrange things, but part of me misses that reassurance that they like me. I also found myself a bit anxious waiting for a reply from my text that I had enjoyed our night but I reminded myself I have no evidence he won't, it wasn't nearly as bad as it used to be. I think it might be a good thing to casually bring up after the next date? I feel like I have co-opted your thread, I don't know the etiquette on this. We both seem to be going down a similar path so it felt appropriate but now I am wondering if I should start my own. Emptiness is definitely something I am working everyday to fill. I have started a list of things I like. I also just do any and every hobby that strikes my interest. Cross-stitch? Sure, Archery? Why not? who cares if I hate them, they show me who I am or am not, both useful. cherrycola curious, if you feel like sharing, how things are going with your date from a little bit ago. I am still talking to the divorced guy. We are planning to have a longer convo today - I'm not looking forward to it, honestly, because I'm sure I'll find stuff wrong with him and then just go back to not really having prospects... but we'll see.
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 9, 2022 21:42:27 GMT
I ended up posting over in the support for FA if you wanted to go and take a gander.
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