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Post by seeking on Jul 7, 2022 12:10:47 GMT
Hi. It's been a minute.
I just wanted to post an update.
Last I left off, I was talking to a recently divorced guy from another state. We met on Zoom. I got immediately turned off by his budget for groceries. It's ridiculous. So there's that.
There's a few other things. But he's like the only man on earth right now. I get *zero* attention from men and this has been the case for a couple years now - online, in the world, etc. So he and I still email.
I have this relationship, it would seem, with a lot of things.
There's a *part* of me that says "I can't/don't get what I want."
It's really having a hard time.
So I have a wondering -
For instance. I have an opportunity to buy my home. It's not what I would have imagined for myself. In some ways, it's better. In some ways, it's disappointing. This feels SO similar to how I can feel about men.
With the house, I can justify so much. Wow, this could potentially be a great deal. It can provide me a lot of the stability I need. Nothing else is out there right now (I know, I've looked). "Love the one you're with."
But it's ultimately not what I want. Not my "dream home." It's like I can't have my dream home (or that dream guy with the qualities I'd love).
So does a secure work with what they have? This is a very familiar "I have to settle," feeling and an "I just want to be free and not tied down" feeling that comes up.
Anyway, the qualities in this man - lots of good ones. But ones that are also inexplicably frustrating.
That's all for now.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 7, 2022 13:56:48 GMT
Hi. It's been a minute. I just wanted to post an update. Last I left off, I was talking to a recently divorced guy from another state. We met on Zoom. I got immediately turned off by his budget for groceries. It's ridiculous. So there's that. There's a few other things. But he's like the only man on earth right now. I get *zero* attention from men and this has been the case for a couple years now - online, in the world, etc. So he and I still email. I have this relationship, it would seem, with a lot of things. There's a *part* of me that says "I can't/don't get what I want." It's really having a hard time. So I have a wondering - For instance. I have an opportunity to buy my home. It's not what I would have imagined for myself. In some ways, it's better. In some ways, it's disappointing. This feels SO similar to how I can feel about men. With the house, I can justify so much. Wow, this could potentially be a great deal. It can provide me a lot of the stability I need. Nothing else is out there right now (I know, I've looked). "Love the one you're with." But it's ultimately not what I want. Not my "dream home." It's like I can't have my dream home (or that dream guy with the qualities I'd love). So does a secure work with what they have? This is a very familiar "I have to settle," feeling and an "I just want to be free and not tied down" feeling that comes up. Anyway, the qualities in this man - lots of good ones. But ones that are also inexplicably frustrating. That's all for now. Hi there…welcome back. Sorry to hear your love life has been a bit frustrating. I am not secure…but with my therapist I am learning about challenging “potential” and instead looking at the “now”. I think that is one thing that secures have over insecures….a better grasp on the now. While we are chasing after potential….they are looking for what a person offers today. Another thing that I see my secure friends do is be honest about things that bother them. Instead of trying to make a one sided decision….they have a talk with the potential partner about things that bother them in a very open and non threatening way…using I statements and looking for flexibility in the potential partner. I would suggest 2 lists…1. Write down exactly what you are looking for…..everything that comes up. Then take an honest look at the list. Are there things on that list that are part of idealistic list and thus keeping you from finding any suitable partner? (Because I know I have had those). 2. Write down all of this guy’s traits and put a plus if you appreciate it and a minus if you don’t. With the minuses….are these inflexible? Can you talk to him about them? Finally…there is nothing wrong with being single. I actually am learning to enjoy my singleness while being open to a relationship.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 7, 2022 19:06:42 GMT
As an earned secure, I accept the situation I'm in and the choices I have and choose to make the best of them if they aren't ideal and I really can't do anything to change them, but I also accept that it's okay for me to feel frustrated about whatever! Then I process that emotion and move forward in making the best of whatever the situation is. It isn't settling, it's appreciating the situation for what it is and not letting it indefinitely negatively impact you. However, if the disappointment is indefinite and really is about something directly in front of you (not just a projection of some other unrelated feeling of disappointment: see the overcoupling thread again), then you probably do need to better connect with those feelings and make a plan to make changes.
So what I'm saying is, for example. My current housing situation was good when I moved in, but my life circumstances have since changed. I still like my house and location, but the space and layout no longer meet my needs. The insane housing market prices in the US mean I most likely cannot find and afford what I ideally want. I'm going to have to decide what are the biggest must-have priorities and intentionally choose to make some tradeoffs. That doesn't mean I'm settling or will be unhappy just because everything isn't perfect, it means I need to assess my must have needs versus nice to have, and trust myself enough to take responsibility for making my decisions. While also knowing that the next housing situation, if not ideal, doesn't need to be permanent (and probably won't be for various reasons), and it may still take another few years to be really stable and in a longer-term residence. And that is all okay, it is what it is, and I'll be fine regardless. Because I understand my needs, and there's nothing else underlying that I'm trying to compensate for with my living situation (like, I'm not using my living situation as a validating reflection on myself, it doesn't mean anything or contribute to my identity more than being physically comfortable and not adding stress to my life).
Edit: yes, I'm also aware that I have enough privilege to have some autonomy in being able to choose anything in this example, since many people can only afford less. But there's still resilience in making the best of the circumstances that isn't natural for insecures, and wasn't for me when I was AP because of the disconnection from needs and lack of full emotional processing.
Dating is different. You shouldn't feel like you're settling for someone as a result of having a scarcity mentality. Scarcity mentality is an insecure attachment issue. But you also need to decide if you'd be equally dissatisfied with pretty much any partner you might have, or if it really is just him. Be honest with yourself about that... don't compare real partners to a fantasy ideal. Have you actually been happy with anyone? If not, then the issue is still internal and your own discontent, since no partner can fix that for you. And if you know your must-have personality traits in a partner and this guy just doesn't have them, it's okay to keep looking for a better match. Grocery budget isn't a personality trait and that sounds like insecure fault-finding, unless in the bigger picture it reflects a difference in your approaches to finances. If it's an example of how he can't save any money and savings are important to you, for example, that's a legit incompatibility. If he has plenty of money and chooses to spend some on groceries because he can easily afford it without forgoing other important things, then it's his money and his choice and not a big deal in the bigger picture. Maybe for him, it's a healthy lifestyle thing, and he believes he has to eat all expensive organic food. Which isn't necessarily bad if he can afford it, and he's done his research and isn't just blindly following fads.
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Jul 7, 2022 19:08:18 GMT
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Post by alexandra on Jul 7, 2022 19:08:18 GMT
There's a *part* of me that says "I can't/don't get what I want." Also, I can't remember if you're still seeing a therapist, but this is the narrative you are telling yourself and isn't completely true. So it is something I'd highly recommend discussing in therapy.
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Post by seeking on Jul 8, 2022 1:51:29 GMT
Thanks Alexandra. This is really helpful and the insecure in me was really comparing your housing example to dating. Like, "Well this is as good as it's going to get right now so ..." (may as well).
But I can see the difference. I'm not in my ideal home. And yet this opportunity is presenting itself. It means life-style changes, but it is probably an important investment for me. Something I've been wanting for a while and has many upsides. * even though it doesn't feel like what I *truly want* - it's more "oh, okay, time to own a house." but at least it meets a reasonable goal.
That line about the grocery budget not being a personality trait really struck me as my typical avoidant/insecure stuff. There are other things like that, but I don't quite know how to read them yet without knowing him more in person. But I do think it's more a scarcity thing than genuine interest. There are times when, like today - two real-life examples - I see a friend who just got back from her honeymoon (they are older) post about how work was hectic and she wasn't sure if she'd be able to get lunch before another appointment, but that her husband had something all made for her.
I literally have no idea what that is like. It has been so long since someone has done that for me or I've had that kind of help or support in my life I just stared at her post for a long time like it was oddly shocking. And another friend who had to be apart from his wife and 2 kids for a couple days to be with a family member and he said he was going back to his wife today and added, "She's going crazy with the kids and work." And I just thought, welcome to my life. Every day. Not a mere few days without help. It's Every. Single. Day.
It makes me realize the average person or at least these friends have no idea what my reality is like. And that can feel pretty traumatizing? So then I go to something that feels like comfort or feels better and my thoughts drift to like "Wow, how can it be so bad to be with A even if he does spend something like a mysterious $23 a week on groceries" (and when he spent more during a holiday made up for it by only spending $17 the following week) or he is this way or that. Wouldn't it be better to have someone?
It reminds me of that old book that I read years ago with fascination "Marry Him" basically by a single mom at the time. She was like Who cares if he's shorter than you? So what he plays poker every Thursday and you hate that. Does he take out the trash? Is he a reasonable human?
It was making a case for basically get over yourself and your ideal man and be utilitarian and practical. It really appealed to a part of me (with relief) but I've never successfully done anything like that and likely will not.
But I guess it goes to show the lengths someone might go with single parenting. It's worn me down like nothing else. And I'm really truly just absolutely depleted, exhausted, and over it! The aloneness is something I'm done with and something that I feel is part of my healing - is to want to share life with someone, ask for help, receive support - that is different. It's coming from a place in me that is more whole.
But as far as therapy I can't really afford general therapy - I'm working short-term on a specific issue that impacts my daily life so I'd have to explore the "I don't get what I want" somehow else.
It's similar to the shock over what other people have - those simple "Someone made me lunch." "So and so is going crazy" [essentially doing what I do daily] - it showed up strongly when I visited another friend's house who I have known for a long time but never went there and had that like "OMG" feeling of this would be a dream.
I don't have identity wrapped up in a house. But I am someone who can appreciate really simple natural beauty and spaces, and their home and what they created just stunned me. Not because it was like some million dollar home but it woke something up in me that I feel so off my path of *what I want* - because honestly I've just sacrificed for so long as a mom and living through years of narcissistic abuse. And I think of all the dreams I once had - ones that were entirely do-able like this friend - and the part of me comes up that says "It didn't happen for me. I can't have that." (As I'm writing this, I actually realized that I wouldn't even be buying this house if it weren't for my daughter. But I want stability for her - and to some extent for me too. Alone, I was a total gypsy.)
So I've been exploring that a bit on my own with IFS. And it doesn't take over my life. But it's a painful part that can feel like it has a steady low-level presence behind the scenes.
Anyway, thanks for listening - sorry if this got a little whiney/victimy here.
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Post by seeking on Jul 8, 2022 2:44:14 GMT
I was just thinking about another aspect of this and will add, it really wouldn't hurt me to commit sometimes. I give up when I get the first taste of "I don't want to do this/not working for me." In some ways, that could be good - why waste time on things that aren't really what you want? But I know there is value to commitment - like right now, I really don't want to do our co-op again in the fall. Yet I remember times in the spring when I loved it so much and wanted to stay in this area for ever and even wished we could buy our house? But how is it a few months later, I feel none of that. So it's confusing and I'm learning to sort of say to myself "Remember a few months ago you were happy about it? Maybe ride it out a little?" I can have a very changeable system, so it's been interesting (and relatively new) to practice this - and also totally confusing when I'm trying to move more deeply into what I want....
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Post by introvert on Jul 8, 2022 14:46:39 GMT
The utilitarian and practical approach to committing to a relationship is what DA tend to do, and I've done it most of my life with disastrous results. This was because I was ignorant about what is required to make a relationship healthy and successful. I thought I knew but I wasn't in touch with myself so really, how could I know. I thought that relationships were about practical partnerships and if two people just showed up being respectful and did a good job, that the tasks of living and parenting could be accomplished. Sounds good on paper. If people were paper, that is. If you could cut yourself to the needed shape and bam, things fit and if not, a little snip and a fold and it will do.
Absent was love, care, trust and respect. If you don't take your emotional needs into consideration either because you haven't identified them or because you don't honor them, a "practical" choice could turn out to be emotionally devastating to either you, the partner, or both.
Being purely practical might work in a day and time when that was the norm... arranged marriages or pioneer days maybe, but could leave you in perpetual angst nowadays when you're surrounded by relationships that are soulful and meaningful.
On the other hand, I've accepted quirks and less desirable traits in my happy relationship because the fundamentals of a good relationship are there: shared values, trust, respect, attraction (not immediately but it grew with the emotional connection), and a shared vision for a long term relationship (meaning we both are committed, not that we have identical visions about what that looks like in every detail). We create as we go, keeping both of our needs and desires as inspiration. We do things differently in most areas... but the areas that really matter we find a way to work together.
I'm reading that the fundamental thing you are struggling with is knowing yourself and trusting yourself to be able to choose well, for your highest good and lasting contentment. Because you feel changeable. Or maybe can't muster the good feelings to go with what's practical. Maybe that is coming from being in a place of depletion and exhaustion where the mundane aspects of life are so frustrating that you don't feel simple joy, the joy of just being. I didn't feel that for a very long time as a single parent. Unfortunately, in that space I needed a lot but had little to give to a relationship, because relationships also take a lot of work and some sacrifice and discomfort. I was already just surviving and couldn't take more on. It kept me choosing things avoidantly--- either in a relationship or single.
A relationship sounds great if you feel your ship is sinking and someone can arrive on scene to help bail it out and keep it afloat. But what about when the relationship challenges you and you have to work to keep it afloat too? That happens in any relationship, and that's why a good relationship causes us to grow as people... because it makes you identify areas where you NEED to grow. Conflict, triggers, that's part of a committed relationship too. So the fear of that could easily push you to avoidant behaviors, like fault finding in a "good enough" partner.
Perhaps none of this is helpful, I'm just sharing my experience with it because I had a long hard road as a single parent before I met my partner. I can relate. When I finally met him after a string of toxic misses, I was in a place of gratitude, self care, and not compromising on my VALUES. I knew what they were, and was leading with interpersonal dynamics that were healthy and coming from a place of self love and care. With that came grace for myself, and consequently the ability to have a grace for a partner. All of that together helped me know what to compromise on and what not to compromise on.
Gratitude and the ability to see the blessing in less than ideal conditions seems to play a big part in how happy and content I am and also lead me toward better situations. It somehow all goes together. Maybe it has to do with an abundant vs scarcity mindset. The law of attraction. idk. An improved outlook that came from improved self esteem, self worth, gratitude, and awareness.
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Post by seeking on Jul 9, 2022 19:36:06 GMT
The utilitarian and practical approach to committing to a relationship is what DA tend to do, and I've done it most of my life with disastrous results. This was because I was ignorant about what is required to make a relationship healthy and successful. I thought I knew but I wasn't in touch with myself so really, how could I know. I thought that relationships were about practical partnerships and if two people just showed up being respectful and did a good job, that the tasks of living and parenting could be accomplished. Sounds good on paper. If people were paper, that is. If you could cut yourself to the needed shape and bam, things fit and if not, a little snip and a fold and it will do. Absent was love, care, trust and respect. If you don't take your emotional needs into consideration either because you haven't identified them or because you don't honor them, a "practical" choice could turn out to be emotionally devastating to either you, the partner, or both. Being purely practical might work in a day and time when that was the norm... arranged marriages or pioneer days maybe, but could leave you in perpetual angst nowadays when you're surrounded by relationships that are soulful and meaningful. On the other hand, I've accepted quirks and less desirable traits in my happy relationship because the fundamentals of a good relationship are there: shared values, trust, respect, attraction (not immediately but it grew with the emotional connection), and a shared vision for a long term relationship (meaning we both are committed, not that we have identical visions about what that looks like in every detail). We create as we go, keeping both of our needs and desires as inspiration. We do things differently in most areas... but the areas that really matter we find a way to work together. Thanks. I assumed, maybe, it was implied that emotional needs are getting met and there is love, trust, respect, and care there. I don't see how things could exist otherwise.
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Post by seeking on Jul 9, 2022 19:40:17 GMT
Jul 8, 2022 10:46:39 GMT -4 introvert said: I'm reading that the fundamental thing you are struggling with is knowing yourself and trusting yourself to be able to choose well, for your highest good and lasting contentment. Because you feel changeable. Or maybe can't muster the good feelings to go with what's practical.
---- Yes, this precisely -- lasting contentment feels really elusive to me. And, yes, not mustering good feelings to go with what's practical.
I've always been this way (Libra Moon) and (Aquarius rising). I am really really bad at this.
All I've been doing now is that every time I'm dissatisfied, I remind myself it could change tomorrow, or think back to being satisfied.
Case in point, last night I loved where we lived again, felt fortunate. I can go a week with thinking we need to move or looking elsewhere. It's exhausting.
So I don't know, to your point about being exhausted and depleted, if it's the chicken or the egg.
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Post by seeking on Jul 9, 2022 19:55:27 GMT
I didn't feel that for a very long time as a single parent. Unfortunately, in that space I needed a lot but had little to give to a relationship, because relationships also take a lot of work and some sacrifice and discomfort. I was already just surviving and couldn't take more on. It kept me choosing things avoidantly--- either in a relationship or single. I'm sorry this was your experience. I'm pretty aware of what relationships require. Sorry if I gave the impression I wasn't aware of that? I was in 2 relationships (long more serious ones) and gave plenty. I was plenty uncomfortable. One was 18 months, with someone whose children I loved and my daughter loved him. We spent time together as a family and also on weekends when my daughter would go to her dads, just me and him. I was devastated it didn't work out. He was a love addict, and had a lot of work to do. His dad died, and he jumped ship because I was someone who wasn't letting him get away with his behaviors. So he went back to his ex-ex wife (first one). Oh well. Another guy, same thing -plenty of conversations, time together. I determined he wasn't a safe bet - had anger issues. My issue is not that I'm not okay with sacrifice. Far from it. It's my middle name (or first?) or discomfort. It's pretty much like that all day long. My problem is not that I don't experience joy. I absolutely do. My life has been so extraordinarily hard, that I appreciate very simple pleasures. I've been through the worst narc abusive from both family and ex. I'm just choosing not to go it alone anymore. I deserve a partner, just like all the rest of the humans out there - many of whom are far less able to give *anything* (I know at least 5 or more off the top of my head just in my immediate circle). Many of whom are disabled, sick, in bed, have major issues, won't seek therapy, hate their partners, have doting, devoted partners and complain about them. Nope. Not me. I just can't meet a single soul. It's like I'm cursed. I am on two dating sites, and people who write me are either fake or don't write back. Just looking for a decent, like-minded, healthy guy. Which after all the self-work I've done and all the doing everything alone, would be really amazing. I remember dating the guy who I decided was angry and being at a grocery store to pick up food for dinner, and a friend texted that she was sick and I got her flowers, and did a few extra things - *because I knew my boyfriend at the time would be over later and cook* - and that afforded me the ability to take pleasure in helping a friend, which was a joy for me. I think people take joy in sharing tasks. Helping each other out. That's how humans are designed. We weren't created to live in little expensive bubbles alone, and eat alone, and buy all our own food and cook it alone, and take care of our young alone, while being sick alone and still working alone and taking care of our young and the household. It's not okay. It's not healthy.
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Jul 9, 2022 21:51:01 GMT
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Post by alexandra on Jul 9, 2022 21:51:01 GMT
seeking, do you have any opportunity to meet people in person these days? Instead of only having internet dating as your pool? Meetups, speed dating, activities that may attract older single men? I know your time is extremely limited as a single mother and your daughter has some special needs, and the pandemic makes exactly none of this easier. But internet dating requires so much filtering and does have some good options but not necessarily many of them... so it may be magnifying your scarcity mentality feelings as well. In my entire life, I think I've met two objectively really great guys online. And a handful of decent ones. Over 15 years of on and off but pretty active use, in a younger age group than yours! I also know a handful of friends who met their spouses online, but it's usually "got really lucky and they were the first person I met" or "met tons of people over several years until it was the right match."
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Post by seeking on Jul 9, 2022 22:31:28 GMT
A relationship sounds great if you feel your ship is sinking and someone can arrive on scene to help bail it out and keep it afloat. But what about when the relationship challenges you and you have to work to keep it afloat too? That happens in any relationship, and that's why a good relationship causes us to grow as people... because it makes you identify areas where you NEED to grow. Conflict, triggers, that's part of a committed relationship too. So the fear of that could easily push you to avoidant behaviors, like fault finding in a "good enough" partner. Yes, that's what I'm talking about here. I am already doing it with someone I'm not even in a relationship with. It's hard to know what's a "trigger," what's just me being avoidant. What a secure would do, etc. That's largely what I'm posting about. It's ongoing work.
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Post by seeking on Jul 9, 2022 22:36:20 GMT
seeking , do you have any opportunity to meet people in person these days? Instead of only having internet dating as your pool? Meetups, speed dating, activities that may attract older single men? I know your time is extremely limited as a single mother and your daughter has some special needs, and the pandemic makes exactly none of this easier. But internet dating requires so much filtering and does have some good options but not necessarily many of them... so it may be magnifying your scarcity mentality feelings as well. In my entire life, I think I've met two objectively really great guys online. And a handful of decent ones. Over 15 years of on and off but pretty active use, in a younger age group than yours! I also know a handful of friends who met their spouses online, but it's usually "got really lucky and they were the first person I met" or "met tons of people over several years until it was the right match." I do. I go to events in town, regular meetings with a politically active group, volunteer work, I'm also starting a school on top of things (it's a co-op but still). I've gone to BBQs, made new friends and gone to things with them. As far as speed dating, though. No. I had a few friends who did it and were miserable. Yes, totally magnifying the scarcity mentality online. And that's helpful to know that you met two. Really puts things in perspective, def seems more cut out for 20-something and early 30s who are motivated by marriage/kids, etc. Or whatever. But, wow, yeah. That does say something. Thank you for that perspective.
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Post by introvert on Jul 10, 2022 3:38:35 GMT
A relationship sounds great if you feel your ship is sinking and someone can arrive on scene to help bail it out and keep it afloat. But what about when the relationship challenges you and you have to work to keep it afloat too? That happens in any relationship, and that's why a good relationship causes us to grow as people... because it makes you identify areas where you NEED to grow. Conflict, triggers, that's part of a committed relationship too. So the fear of that could easily push you to avoidant behaviors, like fault finding in a "good enough" partner. Yes, that's what I'm talking about here. I am already doing it with someone I'm not even in a relationship with. It's hard to know what's a "trigger," what's just me being avoidant. What a secure would do, etc. That's largely what I'm posting about. It's ongoing work. Right, I get it. The bit I shared about living in gratitude and self care, etc... was a follow up to that as a means of expressing things in my life that helped me transform the avoidant attitudes that I habitually held toward opportunities that challenged me.
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Post by introvert on Jul 10, 2022 14:27:46 GMT
Well, here's a couple questions that I eventually confronted in my experience of going from impossibly single to commuted, that have to do with deep subconscious feelings.
Do you reject over little things because you fear that you will be rejected over elements of your life that may be challenging to someone else?
Do you believe in the partner you envision, someone actually choosing you and coming along side you in your life, for good and for bad? Or is that a fantasy that seems unobtainable for reasons you shove down?
Do you believe there is any man willing to commit and make the kinds of sacrifices that you make?
I'm not sure that I had the best answers to those questions before I found my life partner. But I can tell you I've been dumbfounded at the lengths he will go to in order to support me. He does it out of his heart, who he is.
What I can say, is that if you find yourself rejecting a man who has a lot of positive qualities and who is interested in exploring a relationship with you, you will lose that opportunity to explore. And dating is all about exploration. If you're done with him, fine. But of course challenge yourself to see why. You simply will have to deal with some turn offs in the big picture of love, and doing so does require developing that tolerance muscle. Maybe you do your best to put some issues in the "Does not matter in my bigger picture" pile and test how that runs for you- feel it out.
That's how I began to differentiate and choose my partner in spite of his imperfections. And certainly, he's done that for me. That's the grace mentioned. And, of course the grace has to start with an honest assessment of how you may be challenging to someone, in little ways that turn them off. It's the reality, we all have those aspects. And can you be gentle with yourself in those areas? As always, it's an inside job.
It's confusing to take the steps into unknown territory as you work toward healthier relating- there are risks involved and mistakes to be made. But doing something different to the feeling is sometimes required... allowing openness and curiosity about solutions to take the place of judgements and turning your heart off.
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