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Post by tnr9 on May 8, 2023 15:45:25 GMT
I marinated on your post a bit because I have had very similar responses to you with key people in my life. Initially I thought it was codependency…..but after being in a class on attachment wounding, I realized it was enmeshment. And while I thought I had good boundaries…it turned out that for those key people…I had no true boundaries. This is why SE therapy was so helpful…how could I honor or even speak to my needs when I did not grasp where I physically ended and another person physically began? Before I could really address validating my feelings and needs…I needed to become clear on myself. This meant lots of work getting back into my “body” (which I had numbed) and addressing the trauma that was stored there…clenched teeth, tight throat, soreness etc. Once I started working through the trauma in my body…I was able to stop taking things so seriously or fearing what my mom or anyone else would think or say and I started to really get in touch with “me”. It may be that when you crossed into love with this guy and he became a key person….your boundaries evaporated and you became enmeshed with him. I think it is a very common thing for peop,e with anxious wounding to become enmeshed.
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Post by mysteryuser on May 8, 2023 20:18:48 GMT
Have you ever written your needs down so they are fully articulated? Have you defined them? I do feel like I'm able to articulate and define most of my needs, yes. But I abandon them and myself to give myself the illusion of not being abandoned by the other person. Again I noticed I started doing this only at the 6 month mark when I fell in love.
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Post by mysteryuser on May 8, 2023 20:25:16 GMT
I marinated on your post a bit because I have had very similar responses to you with key people in my life. Initially I thought it was codependency…..but after being in a class on attachment wounding, I realized it was enmeshment. And while I thought I had good boundaries…it turned out that for those key people…I had no true boundaries. This is why SE therapy was so helpful…how could I honor or even speak to my needs when I did not grasp where I physically ended and another person physically began? Before I could really address validating my feelings and needs…I needed to become clear on myself. This meant lots of work getting back into my “body” (which I had numbed) and addressing the trauma that was stored there…clenched teeth, tight throat, soreness etc. Once I started working through the trauma in my body…I was able to stop taking things so seriously or fearing what my mom or anyone else would think or say and I started to really get in touch with “me”. It may be that when you crossed into love with this guy and he became a key person….your boundaries evaporated and you became enmeshed with him. I think it is a very common thing for peop,e with anxious wounding to become enmeshed. Funnily enough I was reading Jessica Baum's "Anxiously Attached" book touching on this very thing. I agree with this characterization because I was trying to save "The RelationshipTM" even if it meant I was abandoning my needs because I felt like it was an extension of me. I was parentified a lot by my mom because my dad made life hell for her and I had to put out fires and support her - she would get extremely stressed and upset and to this day she cries whenever I cry too. As Baum mentions, the child in me associated the lack of separation with connection, and so separation meant I wasn't connected/safe. I see merit in the SE therapy aspects as well though I haven't tried it and mindfulness for example hasn't been so helpful to me without also figuring out the root causes/emotions.
I don't think it's the only reason though, I do think codependency is showing its roots as well due to an intense fear of abandonment. It's as if I couldn't have boundaries because on some level I was afraid of being abandoned and I need them to survive and the notion that a relationship must have no separation and that's the only way they'll stay with me. I do think for the first 6-7 months we were doing very well until out of sheer panic regarding possible long-distance he blindsided and broke up with me. That separation almost broke my spirit, but 3 days later he came back and acknowledged it was a fear response on his end and we slowly started getting back together.
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Post by alexandra on May 8, 2023 20:51:14 GMT
The 6 months and then all this stuff happens internally for you sounds normal enough to me in regards to these issues. We've talked in other threads, usually more in the context of avoidants flipping switches, that it's possible for insecures to override all their fears for a while because of the excitement of new relationship energy, sometimes even because the attraction is "this person/dynamic feels familiar to me" but maybe it comes with the opportunity to rewrite the past and THIS time it can magically be different and corrected, etc. But the primary reason for it (also brought up in those threads) is it can take a little while for your nervous system to register the partner as long-term, actually sticking around, becoming a "permanent" attachment figure. And then all that suppressed nervous system stuff suddenly pops out, whether it's fear of intimacy, of abandonment, of enmeshment, whatever. Since you were responsible for your mom's emotions, the codependency roots are going to be in part because you were conditioned to feel responsible for other people's emotions and well-being. Which means both learning to be hypervigilant and overly aware of the other person's moods and needs since you "need" to regulate them (subconscious awareness) and also anticipating and expecting that anyone saying anything might be passively "asking" something of you -- even when they're not codependent and doing nothing of the sort. I don't think I'm really saying anything new here, because it comes back to what you and tnr9 are touching on, which is a lack of healthy boundaries between people. Codependency in relationships is also a double sided sword because (in my experience, both personally and observing some examples in close real life friend's romantic lives), someone generally eventually grows out of it but feels guilt and confusion for doing so, and that turns into an emotional disaster. So you're still on the right path questioning this and trying to figuring out how to navigate yourself out of those tendencies. But I think it starts with recognizing who you are and what you like and are like without outside influences and voices in your head, and from there trying to building out boundaries and starting to get more comfortable with not needing to always be agreeable, as long as you're not being outright disrespectful or mean. Which also means finding where that line is, practicing saying no, and doing self-affirmation exercises that you on your own is enough to offer to someone else, and you don't need to add overfunctioning in to compensate for feelings of not being enough. In terms of SE therapy, I never did that, but I did in retrospect find a lot of value in getting involved in physical activities that forced me to be present in my body (think balance, stretching, things that if you're not focused on you'll accidentally hurt yourself). I really didn't think that was contributing anything to the process and was doing it for generally maintaining physical health reasons, but being forced to take myself out of whatever else was going on for an hour and BE PRESENT in my body, over time, actually really, really made a difference and did contribute to working through these issues, even though it was nothing I was putting a name to at the time. So if you aren't going the SE route, getting involved in yoga (optionally ignoring the overly woo-woo parts) or running or swimming, or a similar kind of individual sport, routinely may help in ways that aren't obvious until you've been in the routine for several months (I think it took me a year and a half to notice I was more present and less scanning externally for threats?). I'd recommend trying it if you don't have a focused and workout routine already that's challenging in this particular way. Running didn't work for me personally because I could go on auto-pilot too easily and let my mind wander to all the anxious stressful things too much, activities that required balance and concentration were more constructive for me for this.
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Post by mysteryuser on May 8, 2023 21:23:12 GMT
alexandra About the 6-month mark: I had bad anxious tendencies within the first few weeks of dating before having worked on myself for months and going after (seemingly) more secure men. I had done a lot of work to be more secure in my behavior and met my last boyfriend who also seemed very affectionate and communicative at first - and he did definitely try to be a secure partner as well. But of course as we got closer and the stakes got higher, he broke up with me out of his own panic and awakened all my insecure tendencies since when I had "worked on it" before meeting him, I had only scratched the surface of my core wounds. Towards the end the fear was truly crippling. I claimed to be okay with all sorts of things I had no intention nor willingness to do just so I am not abandoned, and just so he is happy. I couldn't accept that he is allowed to be unhappy with me without breaking up with me mainly because I felt it was my job to keep him happy but also because he had shown he couldn't look past temporary fear and upset to sustain the relationship either. I agree that there is guilt and confusion and the "not always agreeable but not disrespectful or mean" notion is a good way to look at it as well. I need to uncover why I feel guilty as well because it's not just in relationships. Recently while apartment hunting when I refused to a room from a few people (total strangers) and found a better option I sent them an explanation expressing apologies and overly elaborate reasons when simply "I found an option that works better but thank you!" would have sufficed. I felt bad and guilty for wasting their time. But the "you on your own is enough and you don't need to add overfunctioning to compensate" is beautifully put and has really got me thinking. Looking back, I felt connected to my mom only when I was supporting her, so I do feel like I draw my worth in how much value I'm adding to someone's life and how much they *need* me. Recently in therapy I also realized I tend to go after guys that don't have close emotional support from other sources - probably to feel like their sole support in life and I'm "special" because they *need* me. I also had a horrible incident with my first crush at 16 who was a good friend at the time but lied to me and made me feel like a friendship of 3 years meant nothing to him because he had other people, which made me further want to be with someone who *needed* me. In my last relationship, I was okay with being unhappy as long as he was happy. To be honest, he was definitely someone many people would consider overly needy, but I didn't mind it because I also have a skewed view on relationships and feel like that is what "true intimacy" is. I sometimes feel like if I work on my fear of being alone and accept that I'm okay being alone, I could stop being afraid of losing people. But I realize there is a balance, and that I can seek/need connection as humans do without *needing* a specific person.
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Post by alexandra on May 8, 2023 21:33:00 GMT
It may also help then to remember if someone is making you feel not enough unless you're overfunctioning, that is a red flag they don't have healthy boundaries and aren't going to be a good person for you to invest in and attach to. It definitely isn't a sign that you need to try harder so they don't leave. There are people who feel comfortable in the role of being put first and taken care of constantly for their own reasons, and pairing off with people who "need" you to make them feel special will hamper your own growth and healthy ability to have your own needs. So part of this is being very aware in the future when you're ready to date again of the type of partner you're choosing. Even if you work on yourself and have healthy boundaries, if you choose someone who doesn't, it will set both of you back. It's hard enough to work through your own growth without also taking on someone else's work and being constantly triggered by it. Everyone has baggage, no one's going to be perfect, but there's lots of different people out there and some will have healthier perspectives on the balance between interdependency and connection versus independence than you've experienced so far.
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Post by trippintre on May 8, 2023 22:18:26 GMT
alexandra About the 6-month mark: I had bad anxious tendencies within the first few weeks of dating before having worked on myself for months and going after (seemingly) more secure men. I had done a lot of work to be more secure in my behavior and met my last boyfriend who also seemed very affectionate and communicative at first - and he did definitely try to be a secure partner as well. But of course as we got closer and the stakes got higher, he broke up with me out of his own panic and awakened all my insecure tendencies since when I had "worked on it" before meeting him, I had only scratched the surface of my core wounds. Towards the end the fear was truly crippling. I claimed to be okay with all sorts of things I had no intention nor willingness to do just so I am not abandoned, and just so he is happy. I couldn't accept that he is allowed to be unhappy with me without breaking up with me mainly because I felt it was my job to keep him happy but also because he had shown he couldn't look past temporary fear and upset to sustain the relationship either. Looking back, I felt connected to my mom only when I was supporting her, so I do feel like I draw my worth in how much value I'm adding to someone's life and how much they *need* me. Recently in therapy I also realized I tend to go after guys that don't have close emotional support from other sources - probably to feel like their sole support in life and I'm "special" because they *need* me. Phew, could have written this. Same thing happened in my last relationship. I relate to the crippling fear towards the end - I was trying to manage it on my own because I thought I was just making things up, when in reality I was picking up on legitimate cues and should have taken those as signs my needs weren't being met/boundaries were being pushed. I too have trouble knowing my needs and expressing them once the stakes get higher for fear of being left, rocking the boat, being too needy, etc. What I needed was a partner who made me feel safe to do so and I didn't have that so it made something that is already hard for me even harder. I have been reflecting on the same ideas as you about being "needed" and being "special." That has always been a recurring theme in my romantic encounters. Notably a years long entanglement with someone that was clearly never going anywhere but fed into that "special" narrative for me until I got fed up and cut off the relationship cold turkey. I'm still not sure how to go about healing this but have been working with my therapist and exploring it more lately. It also goes back to issues with my mom from childhood that I'm still untangling. I'm one of those people that's very capable and secure in other aspects of my life like work, friendships, etc but when it comes to romantic relationships this all rears its ugly head. I agree with alexandra that physical activities really help connect me to myself and feel grounded so that's been something I'm trying to stay on top of.
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Post by mysteryuser on May 8, 2023 23:50:35 GMT
It may also help then to remember if someone is making you feel not enough unless you're overfunctioning, that is a red flag they don't have healthy boundaries and aren't going to be a good person for you to invest in and attach to. It definitely isn't a sign that you need to try harder so they don't leave. There are people who feel comfortable in the role of being put first and taken care of constantly for their own reasons, and pairing off with people who "need" you to make them feel special will hamper your own growth and healthy ability to have your own needs. So part of this is being very aware in the future when you're ready to date again of the type of partner you're choosing. Even if you work on yourself and have healthy boundaries, if you choose someone who doesn't, it will set both of you back. It's hard enough to work through your own growth without also taking on someone else's work and being constantly triggered by it. Everyone has baggage, no one's going to be perfect, but there's lots of different people out there and some will have healthier perspectives on the balance between interdependency and connection versus independence than you've experienced so far. Yes you are correct. I remember a few days before he broke up with me the second time, I broke down crying feeling like nothing I do is enough and that I'm a bad girlfriend. The truth is even if he didn't intend to make me feel this way, one of his core wounds was that nobody cares, and unless he works on himself there is nothing I can do to make him feel cared for. Sometimes it felt like the bar to make him feel cared for got higher and higher, and I couldn't keep up. It's hard to define this "type of partner" who is right for me, and determining whether I'm drawing a legitimate boundary to be happy and safe or if I'm being selfish, hence the post haha. I think one basic thing I should look for is someone who has a growth mindset and can rely on other people while also seeking out solutions to the things holding him back from being happy.
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Post by mysteryuser on May 9, 2023 0:05:38 GMT
I have been reflecting on the same ideas as you about being "needed" and being "special." That has always been a recurring theme in my romantic encounters. Notably a years long entanglement with someone that was clearly never going anywhere but fed into that "special" narrative for me until I got fed up and cut off the relationship cold turkey. I'm still not sure how to go about healing this but have been working with my therapist and exploring it more lately. It also goes back to issues with my mom from childhood that I'm still untangling. I'm one of those people that's very capable and secure in other aspects of my life like work, friendships, etc but when it comes to romantic relationships this all rears its ugly head. I agree with alexandra that physical activities really help connect me to myself and feel grounded so that's been something I'm trying to stay on top of. Sorry that you went through that and I understand how you feel. I am also doing well in my professional life for my age and I have wonderful supportive and close friends. Our need to feel special is entirely based off our primary attachment figure's opinion of us and I think starting to establish a strong sense of self can 1) give us the internal validation and strength we need to overcome the fear of abandonment and 2) draw a separation between the partner and ourselves to prevent enmeshment and encourage healthy boundaries. The double jeopardy is that when we pick people who need us, the enmeshment gets even worse, and this heightens the fear of abandonment. The analogy I gave my ex was him putting all his eggs on my basket and me letting him do so meant when I inevitably trip and fall, he would lose *everything*, and I would lose his trust/get abandoned and blame myself.
I definitely see the merit in physical activities for this, but that doesn't come to me naturally so that has been hard. My therapist would encourage me to define who I am outside of my career and love life and reflect often on all my accomplishments outside of work and have a gratitude journal *about myself*. I think years of being on survival mode due to financial instability and only recently gaining some financial stability has left me without a strong sense of self.
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Post by alexandra on May 9, 2023 0:52:59 GMT
I am the least physically flexible person going, which is why I tried yoga. It is not something that comes naturally to me at all. But I found a class that was the absolute most convenient there could be (location-wise, time-wise, logistics-wise) so I had no real excuse and then forced myself to go multiple times a week for a year and a half. Part of the building up of self and identity is doing explorations of things that don't come "naturally" to you -- although if you give something a real chance and find that you really hate it, don't force yourself or feel bad about moving on to something else! But part of growth is finding ways to safely explore the limits of your comfort zone and maybe push beyond them, and for me this was a low-risk way of that. The yoga teacher was also cool, as long as I took away the good nuggets and ignored the excessively "crunchy" (for me) parts. Very encouraging of new students and any progress at any level, so that was helpful too. Choosing an activity you can gradually improve at and recognizing your progress (especially when it's not obvious to others so it remains about you and doesn't become about them) is also a good benefit.
I'm back to not being flexible anymore since I stopped doing classes during the pandemic and haven't been committed enough to doing it on my own, but the growth through it anyway stuck with me. The even worse part of this story: I only finally pushed myself to start going in the first place because I had multiple FA exes who shamed me for being athletic but not in the exact way they wanted! I was still AP at the time. But I knew it was good for me to do that kind of conditioning for myself as well, so it wasn't 100% done for others or I wouldn't have stuck with it. That's why the overall benefits for me and me alone, no matter what the opinions of my exes were, were such a pleasant and unexpected surprise. So if you can find a physical activity that you're at least open to, or any other kind of activity that forces you to stay present at regular intervals that may be more interesting to you than yoga or whatever, I strongly recommend giving it a try. It may even be a good break from all the introspection, while letting your brain and body quietly process things on the side that you don't even realize it's doing until later on.
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Post by cherrycola on May 9, 2023 1:09:09 GMT
What I took away from therapy was that sometimes it takes ages to internalize something, IE feel it at an emotional level. And in order to get there it's simply repetition. So that is why for me at least it's a fake it until I make it approach. Progress is made through tiny little baby steps and rarely some grand ah-ha moment. I also second yoga because the breath work is very close to mindfulness which is proven to help you create new cognitive pathways. It can also help you catch yourself when you are in an emotional space and then check in with yourself about what you need at any moment. I'm a lot like tnr9 where I couldn't even feel where my boundaries where. When someone violated me, I would get a vague uncomfortableness later but no clue what it was even from. Even now when I can recognize the uncomfortable feelings it is hard to define the actual need or boundary behind it sometimes. I am slowly learning where I end and others behind.
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Post by alexandra on May 9, 2023 2:22:16 GMT
I think what I'm calling present and focused is also what cherrycola is calling mindfulness. It seemed really incidental to connect with your body that way, but in retrospect, it was pretty important. And I didn't even know I was doing it at the time!
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Post by mysteryuser on May 9, 2023 3:32:16 GMT
I am the least physically flexible person going, which is why I tried yoga. It is not something that comes naturally to me at all. But I found a class that was the absolute most convenient there could be (location-wise, time-wise, logistics-wise) so I had no real excuse and then forced myself to go multiple times a week for a year and a half. Part of the building up of self and identity is doing explorations of things that don't come "naturally" to you -- although if you give something a real chance and find that you really hate it, don't force yourself or feel bad about moving on to something else! But part of growth is finding ways to safely explore the limits of your comfort zone and maybe push beyond them, and for me this was a low-risk way of that. The yoga teacher was also cool, as long as I took away the good nuggets and ignored the excessively "crunchy" (for me) parts. Very encouraging of new students and any progress at any level, so that was helpful too. Choosing an activity you can gradually improve at and recognizing your progress (especially when it's not obvious to others so it remains about you and doesn't become about them) is also a good benefit. I'm back to not being flexible anymore since I stopped doing classes during the pandemic and haven't been committed enough to doing it on my own, but the growth through it anyway stuck with me. The even worse part of this story: I only finally pushed myself to start going in the first place because I had multiple FA exes who shamed me for being athletic but not in the exact way they wanted! I was still AP at the time. But I knew it was good for me to do that kind of conditioning for myself as well, so it wasn't 100% done for others or I wouldn't have stuck with it. That's why the overall benefits for me and me alone, no matter what the opinions of my exes were, were such a pleasant and unexpected surprise. So if you can find a physical activity that you're at least open to, or any other kind of activity that forces you to stay present at regular intervals that may be more interesting to you than yoga or whatever, I strongly recommend giving it a try. It may even be a good break from all the introspection, while letting your brain and body quietly process things on the side that you don't even realize it's doing until later on. Thanks for sharing this experience! And yes, you're right in that it would be a part of building up of self. Funny how you mentioned the reason behind why you started. I am starting a new job and my employer has some good benefits on this end, so I definitely can give it a go. I used to do yoga but am bad at keeping up with the habit - the most consistent I've been with it was ~8 months over COVID which I did just to lose weight
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Post by mysteryuser on May 9, 2023 3:37:03 GMT
What I took away from therapy was that sometimes it takes ages to internalize something, IE feel it at an emotional level. And in order to get there it's simply repetition. So that is why for me at least it's a fake it until I make it approach. Progress is made through tiny little baby steps and rarely some grand ah-ha moment. I also second yoga because the breath work is very close to mindfulness which is proven to help you create new cognitive pathways. It can also help you catch yourself when you are in an emotional space and then check in with yourself about what you need at any moment. I'm a lot like tnr9 where I couldn't even feel where my boundaries where. When someone violated me, I would get a vague uncomfortableness later but no clue what it was even from. Even now when I can recognize the uncomfortable feelings it is hard to define the actual need or boundary behind it sometimes. I am slowly learning where I end and others behind. Mindfulness, yes - I've tried it and not going to lie it's hard. I developed a bit of a habit during COVID when things were slow and then slowly lost it as things opened up. Breath work is hard for me to do consistently, but what works in my own small way is hot showers with bath products containing essential oils (aromatherapy, if you will), candles, drinking really cold water, etc. My therapist has also suggested really sour candy. I think these are shorter moments that ground me however, longer sessions of mindfulness definitely need a lot of commitment (or at least it feels that way to me). Guided meditations make it a lot easier.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 15:13:25 GMT
I use the method of practicing presence while doing ordinary things... while riding my bicycle to work, I pay attention to my body pedaling, the feel of the sun and breeze, my breath, the sound of the birds, etc. Anytime during my day I practice turning my attention to what I am doing...that is mindfulness as much as sitting in meditation is. It's being here, now, and it really has helped me develop more peace during difficult times. Something as simple as making a bed or driving a car can be a mindful meditation.
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