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Post by seeking on Aug 7, 2023 12:31:40 GMT
There's a lot to say about my sister, but just coming here with a simple dynamic interaction that particularly triggers me and wondering if anyone has a perspective they can share to help me parse this out a bit....
If I share something remotely hard about my life - not sharing because it's hard, more like inadvertently as part of something I'm telling her - she *immediately* (almost this eerie sense of she knows what I'm going to say) jumps in and turns it around.
For the record, I don't really talk much to my sister. So it's not like I'm always venting or complaining. It's more things I have to say as part of some logistic, but then I seem to add in details--
So a couple weeks ago, I was telling her my daughter has been talking a lot lately about autistic masking, and that she isn't going to have a friend birthday and that we _____________
And I literally just said "Autistic masking" and I was cut off immediately and my sister said, "Don't we all do that?"
Yesterday, I was saying how we changed our plans. How my daughter is going through a rough time b/c she has no relationship with her dad and it got worse this week with him _________- and again I was cut off with "Didn't they just go camping?"
The weird part is that I literally barely get the words out and she's right there cutting me off.
Why? I wasn't going to go on about it. In fact, I normally wouldn't even say stuff like this. But I feel sometimes like I need to state the obvious with my sister b/c she doesn't otherwise see me.
Then I said something my ex said to almost rub it in even more how terrible he is. My friend who I told this to had a physical visceral reaction like someone punched her. My sister just got quiet and said, "Okay."
I can't remember what the other recent one was. But I am remembering -- this is similar -- that recently my dad had suspected tick bites, and we exchange around something going on with my parents. But this week, I'm in such a rough place, I could barely function and I knew my dad had gone to the doctor but I had zero capacity to hear the results. So she texted me, "So I guess he has Lyme?" And my heart raced through the roof (b/c that's the place I'm in). I asked if we could email instead of text (for me text is so immediate and hard to avoid) and she said, "I hate email." And then I said, I'm sorry I'm just having a rough week and am beyond exhausted and have some medical stuff of my own right now and she said "Same here." ??
That's a little different then the jumping in I'm asking about. But part of my stress lately is my sister. We are seeing them b/c my daughter adores my nieces and she wants to see them for her birthday, and their bday is early Sept but I know after this other than if we have to talk about my parents, I won't be interacting much, sadly. It's not what I want but I can't talk to someone where I can't finish a complete sentence.
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Post by sunrisequest on Aug 8, 2023 0:15:04 GMT
I can't say for sure, but it sounds a little bit like your sister feels the discomfort of any difficult things you're going through... co-dependent-type feelings, where she feels your pain and needs to either fix it, turn it around so you'll see it's not a problem at all, or stop you from talking about it. All of your examples are situations where you're telling her something difficult/problematic, and it sounds like she is not able to separate her own emotions from yours and purely empathise in those moments, because she's feeling overwhelmed by what she perceives your emotions to be. Even though you're seeing it as general chit-chat, she seems to be taking more of it on that she needs to, perhaps adding to whatever is going on in her own life that she alluded to in the last message about your dad.
I have had a similar issue with my sister, and after much frustration and big fall-out after I told her I was frustrated with her responses to my life stuff, I chose to take two options with her... I didn't share the problematic details of my life, in favour of more idle chit-chat, trying to have fun and enjoy my connection with her that way... or I'd preface any kind of personal share with exactly what I wanted from her... i.e. I'm just sharing this to get it out and vent... can you hear me out, not looking for any advice, just need someone to tell me it's okay for me to feel crap at the moment etc etc. Our relationship has totally settled since that change... we send each other weird memes and have a laugh and connect over our children, but I rarely tell her something that's bothering me these days.
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Post by sunrisequest on Aug 8, 2023 0:22:35 GMT
I should mention as well, that I found out after the big fall out that my sister had a ton of her own life things that were going on under the surface, and she wasn't telling anyone... and when I found that out, I just tried really hard to be there for her. Told her how much I cared etc, was there if she needed anything... which really helped to soften her, and make her need to fix me a lot less urgent.
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Post by seeking on Aug 8, 2023 1:09:29 GMT
Thank you sunrisequest. This feels really spot on. I'm glad you found a way with your sister.
I'm not sure I can with mine. It feels much too tricky. Like I said, this wasn't an intentional share. This was more like info got in there b/c I was changing plans about a birthday party - I was making a point to say I think (after what my daughter is going through with her dad) that she wants the spotlight more on her. And gave her a little background that we had just met with friends and their daughter was having a such and such party. It wasn't as though I was calling to talk *at all* about my ex or my daughter's relationship with him - which is completely devastating-- so I think I'm coming from a place of like, wow, if even half a sentence slips in there on the way to talking about something else, she can't even tolerate that! I'm not even going to her for support or talking about that. So it makes me feel like I really can't say much of anything and have to limit my contact.
My sister doesn't work, spends most days at a country club with her kids, has a husband who does 80% of the parenting and kid-related stuff and supports their household. And she complains about him and will call me and talk for 1 hour (granted not often), and I listen and that's that. (I'll admit, it's also hard for me to listen to her complain and threaten to divorce my BIL when I'm desperate for any kind of help support, financial, physical, emotional, otherwise)
But anyway, I do think this is spot on about how she interrupts me mid-sentence if she senses even a hint that I might bring up something hard.
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Post by cherrycola on Aug 8, 2023 6:58:41 GMT
It sucks to have everything you say invalidated the second you say it. Is it possible she has never had healthy validation modeled to her? It unfortunately isn't something that comes naturally if your family of origin doesn't do it. The last thing you posted might be worth communicating to her. That you know she isn't intending to do this but it hurts you when it comes out the way it does. I doubt she realizes how she comes across.
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Post by seeking on Aug 8, 2023 12:32:37 GMT
It sucks to have everything you say invalidated the second you say it. Is it possible she has never had healthy validation modeled to her? It unfortunately isn't something that comes naturally if your family of origin doesn't do it. The last thing you posted might be worth communicating to her. That you know she isn't intending to do this but it hurts you when it comes out the way it does. I doubt she realizes how she comes across. Oh yeah. We have to beg for it. Even now, with my daughter.... my daughter has practically no contact with her father and there's just me, so I will send a photo to my sister and mom or my mom and (very rarely) my dad to be like "look what daughter did" (I put her in the thread) and sometime there will be "wow great!" often no response, and sadly with my dad, criticism. That's great, now you have to become Catholic. (his ongoing mantra). It's sad. I think my sister does it with her kids.... pretty sure. The typical like "Wow, that's great." But I guess validation is different, lol. I don't even know. It did take me practice to sit with someone and not "fix" or shut down or change the subject. My daughter gets loud and clear with me when I'm not just listening to her. So you're right it isn't natural. As far as communicating it to her. Yikes. That feels vulnerable and it doesn't feel like we have that safety in our relationship. She'd prob attack me -- not to sound dramatic, but that's become her style, like it would be a threat to her and she'd lash out and I'm not up for that. Also, saying so would be like I wanted more of a relationship from her and as of now she doesn't seem to want that with me. It's pretty messy, but this thread has helped a lot. |
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Post by seeking on Aug 9, 2023 19:31:01 GMT
I think I'm hitting on the heart of where I can get really confused in relationships.
Like I might "make excuses" for people's bad behavior. My sister is codependent and sensitive. Makes me feel guilty and like I should try with her.
This was the trouble I had with my ex - even my dad - all the mixed-up complex relationships in my life.
Recently, I was acting really mean to my kid. I had a super bad month with what appears to be menopause symptoms and I think adrenal burnout and my crankiness felt out of my control. I was super sleep-deprived, completely overwhelmed and everything I said to her just came out nasty and she started calling me "Angry mommy" - I think I apologized to her 3 times in one day. And she sort of said, "But is that what you want? For me to keep accepting apologies?"
It was really eye opening. I knew that I didn't feel like I had much control over my nasty mood but often I have no help so no separation from my daughter. I would have preferred to be left alone with my own misery and mood but because she was here, I kept being really cranky with every word that came out of my mouth.
I thought -- this is like my dad. My dad has been what most people would call abusive - explosive - physically, emotionally and verbally. I spent most of my years in relationship with abusive men (I'm still accepting this fact even as domestic violence counselors confirmed it). Because I always saw the other side to it - maybe my dad's brain is inflamed and he's in a mold rage. Maybe he's got sensory issues that men of his generation never knew how to address and he gets triggered easily. His mom used to discipline him by hitting him with a wooden spoon. Maybe because my grandmother's mom went into mourning and was unavailable to her at a young age. ... and on and on.
When do you say "I can't be around you?" Esp if someone's behavior seems out of their control - and that they're not going to change anytime soon.
When I was at my sister's house last month, I pointed out that her middle daughter grabbed an enormous bag of cherries and plopped down and was eating one after another. Years ago someone in our family had to go to the ER with anaphylaxis due to eating too many cherries (no idea why but that just popped into my head) and my niece has had issues with fruit - like strawberries made her mouth swell. I could have ignored it. But I chose to say to my sister, "Just letting you know ________" and she attacked me. "Why are you so neurotic? Wow. You worry about everything."
I just stood there shocked and shut down. I know she was hot from being in the kitchen and preparing food, had our family at her house that day, could be a million other reasons. But this is pretty common with my sister. She never apologized but I could tell later she was trying to soften it and was like "How many cherries did she eat?" But she couldn't regulate herself still.
I could have compassion for her. Because I do. I can have grief because this is essentially the foundation of my family dynamic - these seemingly sensitive, good hearted people who mean well but are completely dysregulated. I know the feeling from when I was trapped in my hormonal angry/meanness and I didn't want to be. I didn't want my words to come out so sharp toward my daughter. But the difference, I guess, is I will apologize. I will own it. I will do something about it, get help, been in therapy most of my life.
My sister refuses therapy and blames everyone else.
I don't want to make people the "bad person" but it gets super confusing around what kind of boundaries to have, esp when I want to have a relationship with my sister (which I think I've proven is impossible unless I'm willing to walk on eggshells and get pounded on a lot) same with my dad. My ex has done enough overtly toxic things to make me pretty clear that he's harmful and toxic. My sister and dad may just be more of the "self-absorbed" variety.
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Post by introvert on Aug 10, 2023 13:37:55 GMT
My take on this, is thar regardless of someone else's reality, I have certain rules about interactions. It's nuanced, and I certainly take someone's reality into consideration (I also suffer through mood issues related to oerimenopause).
For example... irritability is ok, but criticism is not ok... no attacks on my character or personality or choices. Complaints, ok! Criticism is different and it pays to know the difference when it comes to identifying what makes you uncomfortable. Someone is absolutely welcome to share their emotional experience resulting from my actions, they are welcome to voice a feeling, need, boundary, ask me for what they prefer. Label me? Nah. Attack me, be insulting? Nope.
And when it comes to my boundaries and needs, same rules apply.
Just because someone has an issue doesn't mean I will take behavior that crosses my lines. We can negotiate a relationship.. and I don't spend much time with someone who really struggles with basic respect or kindness.
Also required.. a sense of humor, some self awareness, the ability to accept disagreement without resorting to hurtful words and actions.
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Post by seeking on Aug 14, 2023 1:22:55 GMT
Thanks, Introvert. This makes good sense!
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Post by seeking on Aug 17, 2023 11:16:11 GMT
I continue to observe stuff with my sister. I have a distinct sense in my interactions with her that she finds me annoying, doesn't like me. My sense is that she's always highly irritable and on the few occasions that she's not it's nice to be around her, but very rare. I know not to take this personally b/c she doesn't have any friends - and the one she claims she does have she's always talking about not having but "needs her around." She pretty much hates her husband. And I'm sure to her I'm somewhere on that spectrum of being disliked for whatever reason. Yesterday I felt gaslit by her. We are going to the zoo today for my daughter's bday and I don't ask my family for a lot - maybe just hold back on the whining and negativity and criticism for 1 day just enough to celebrate my daughter who is going through some really tough stuff right now . . . every time I bring up the zoo portion of the day my sister says, "Well we can't stay that long." And then yesterday, I was talking to her about timing before we get to a restaurant. She just got back from vacation and she's like "well, we are pretty wiped out." Again, referring to the fact that she doesn't want to spend a long time at the zoo. But this is what my sister does. She can't take care of herself and do what she needs to do - she needs to control everyone else - we *all* have to shorten our visit at the zoo b/c my sister doesn't like standing for long periods or has heat intolerance. Instead of her suggesting maybe she'll just meet us at the restaurant or sit on a bench of she gets tired. She has to complain to everyone and everyone then needs to do what she needs or field constant complaints/whining... I am trying to pre-empt her whining so I said, "You don't have to come to that part. Or we can just take the kids" - and she wrote back, 'What??? Huh? Why would I not come?" I said, "Oh, because you keep saying you are tired from your trip." And she writes, "I did not say I was tired from my trip." I don't get this. Is this gaslighting? Why gaslight me over such a stupid thing? I've lost track of even trying to follow and understand her behavior. It makes literally no sense. Guaranteed she will whine today and my dad will find a way to ruin the day. It's predictable. And sad. I don't get it. So I told my daughter I'm like a bug zapper going into today. Things are just going to get zapped when they come near me (invisibly)....  |
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Post by anne12 on Aug 17, 2023 11:36:23 GMT
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Post by seeking on Aug 17, 2023 11:39:17 GMT
I guess if I keep looking at this under the framework of codependency my sister is highly codependent (probably like how I used to be though I've done *solid* work for 10 years and it's hard to remember)... but it's almost like she doesn't see herself as separate? Like she doesn't see that she has choices around her own happiness.... everyone has to stop doing something or needs to be doing something for her to be happy or more comfortable. She'd never say, "Oh I have to go sit down." She'd rather complain to a group of 8 people, I guess so that we all then take care of her? I'm not sure.
And as I'm reflecting on this, it seems like a lot of control issues. This happens with my dad too. They both need to be in control or .... I'm not sure what. I really do walk on eggshells around them since a lot of what I say is taken to the worst interpretation or criticized or attacked.
I have a friend helping me with my dog today. She came by with her kids last night (not convenient) to say hi to him. I gave her kids muffins I baked. She thanked me and said I was a sweet baker and told me they loved them. I told her there's more of them and I will leave some today when she comes by. I thanked her for coming over to help with my dog, again. She told me we'll talk more some time about baking stuff. So simple! So easy just to be kind back and forth. I could never ever have that with my sister.
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Post by seeking on Aug 17, 2023 11:42:23 GMT
I'm beginning to think she and my dad are. My dad has had stuff all his life about noises being too loud, smells being too strong. He flies off the handle over every little thing. My sister is the same. And it means she's constantly irritated. But I would guess mild autism and I don't know. My dad is highly social. They both may be highly masking. I try to have so much compassion, but I think it hurts me b/c they can hurt me! I love them both and yet they're both so tricky and unpleasant to be around. It's just hard to say what's what - I used to think narcissism, but just want to let go of labels. But for label's sake, who knows- codependent, highly sensitive, neurodivergent.... |
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Post by seeking on Aug 17, 2023 11:43:42 GMT
Heading out soon. But this looks like great info. Thank you! Look forward to reading. But just glancing at this - yes, yes, yes. I already knew it's like their social engagement system is completely offline and their sympathetic fight response is strong strong strong. So it's a lot of dysregulation. My dad definitely is highly aggressive (has even been violent and nearly killed my mom in an accident due to his anger). My sister - wow, the passive aggressive part! I didn't even realize that it was that strong in her, but making sense. The other weird aspect is that both of them will tell you how much they like this or that - their churches or this person or that thing - but it's never you. Oh, I love this woman on TV, I love that family. This person is so great. But you're sitting their like, Hello? I didn't even know you liked anything! |
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Post by seeking on Aug 19, 2023 11:28:53 GMT
anne12 I'm curious, since you wrote those posts, what your thoughts are on why all the anger? These people seem to be in a perpetual state of anger which makes me think there's a lot of autonomic nervous system dysregulation? A compromised ventral vagal system (so feeling safe, connected, socially engaged is not available). My dad (prob a narcissist, but again I have trouble identifying this and relating to labels - more that the behavior just seems outrageous to me!) nearly ruined my daughter's bday dinner the other night. My sister explained his behavior. This is all wild to watch. It's taken me a couple days now to recover. But when we got back to my sisters, I was doing other things and my dad said to me, "Don't tell me I ruined your daughter's dinner." ....  I wasn't even talking to him? He's clearly battling his own demons in his head. He seemed wracked with guilt. Even the next morning, I got a call from him and he said, "How did everything go?" Um, you were there. But I know he was testing me out to see if I was mad at him. I know he was in a pit of shame (or at least I'm imagining he was). Anyway, all the lists you wrote explain certain people I'm having trouble with but I'm thinking at the end of the day it's high levels of activation in their nervous systems and stuck in fight and flight (some more fight than others) and freeze.
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I wasn't even talking to him? He's clearly battling his own demons in his head. He seemed wracked with guilt. Even the next morning, I got a call from him and he said, "How did everything go?" Um, you were there. But I know he was testing me out to see if I was mad at him. I know he was in a pit of shame (or at least I'm imagining he was).