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Post by seeking on Oct 31, 2024 0:29:53 GMT
I'm feeling confused about why I never had a narrative of "what happened" to me? I talk to people and they say, "I grew up with a narcissistic father and I was never allowed to show my true feelings." Or "my mother hated me because I reminded her of her mother" or something. Like how do people know this and decide this is true?
I don't know if it's my neurodivergence or resistance to labels or kind of ever-changing view of things as I heal . . . but I'm wondering how people generally arrive at those stories and if they're helpful? On the one hand, I long to make sense of things and on the other, I don't see how anyone can definitely truly know. Like what if you say, "My father was a narcissist and caused me to x, y, z," but the truth is your father was an overwhelmed dysregulated single parent in a chronic fight response and was scary to be around. That he had intergenerational trauma and didn't know how to meet the needs of his kids or something. I just feel like it's tricky to arrive with some certainty at "what happened."
Thoughts?
Also, is there a particular name for a kind of "trauma" where you feel a power imbalance. Like someone else has the power, and you have a need and that is a really vulnerable place to be (versus, you just have a need, no biggie)?
Last, what is at the heart of avoidant fear? (Or being a fearful avoidant)? How come I still don't know this? What are we so afraid of?
Is fault finding (almost to the point where it is exaggerated) a part of this? Some delusion that happens to keep us safe?
i.e., I just talked to someone I thought I was going to really be into based on our emails and was IMMEDIATELY put off by his accent. It's a rare accent (he's not a foreigner) but it absolutely grates on me. I knew this before I met him (I disliked it) but I wonder if my avoidant "parts" exaggerate it to where I decided he's "not for me" (I think one of my hardest issues, still, is determining what's genuine "not for me" and what's de-activation or whatever you would call it).
Is there a name for liking a certain category of men - moderately good looking and professional/intelligent and them NEVER liking me back on dating sites (or even in person) but guys that are just "eh" to me liking me and then me feeling bad that I don't like them? Feels like a MAJOR pattern for me and it's weird.
Thanks...
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 31, 2024 18:46:53 GMT
I'm feeling confused about why I never had a narrative of "what happened" to me? I talk to people and they say, "I grew up with a narcissistic father and I was never allowed to show my true feelings." Or "my mother hated me because I reminded her of her mother" or something. Like how do people know this and decide this is true? I don't know if it's my neurodivergence or resistance to labels or kind of ever-changing view of things as I heal . . . but I'm wondering how people generally arrive at those stories and if they're helpful? On the one hand, I long to make sense of things and on the other, I don't see how anyone can definitely truly know. Like what if you say, "My father was a narcissist and caused me to x, y, z," but the truth is your father was an overwhelmed dysregulated single parent in a chronic fight response and was scary to be around. That he had intergenerational trauma and didn't know how to meet the needs of his kids or something. I just feel like it's tricky to arrive with some certainty at "what happened." Thoughts? Also, is there a particular name for a kind of "trauma" where you feel a power imbalance. Like someone else has the power, and you have a need and that is a really vulnerable place to be (versus, you just have a need, no biggie)? Last, what is at the heart of avoidant fear? (Or being a fearful avoidant)? How come I still don't know this? What are we so afraid of? Is fault finding (almost to the point where it is exaggerated) a part of this? Some delusion that happens to keep us safe? i.e., I just talked to someone I thought I was going to really be into based on our emails and was IMMEDIATELY put off by his accent. It's a rare accent (he's not a foreigner) but it absolutely grates on me. I knew this before I met him (I disliked it) but I wonder if my avoidant "parts" exaggerate it to where I decided he's "not for me" (I think one of my hardest issues, still, is determining what's genuine "not for me" and what's de-activation or whatever you would call it). Is there a name for liking a certain category of men - moderately good looking and professional/intelligent and them NEVER liking me back on dating sites (or even in person) but guys that are just "eh" to me liking me and then me feeling bad that I don't like them? Feels like a MAJOR pattern for me and it's weird. Thanks... I do think there are clear cases where a parent can be labeled….especially if neglect or punishment or incest/rape is involved. I do think there is something healthy in a narrative that speaks to trauma not being the fault of the child…..but I agree that people can get stuck on that narrative of their parent(s) without considering what their parents went through. I know that my narrative about my dad and mom has changed since I put more work into myself. My dad was a narcissist (although I would not have diagnosed him as NPD) and I have accepted that he probably should never have been a father. I do feel that he lost out on getting to know his kids and he died without having any friends. My mom and I are just two very different people with nothing in common. I accept her for who she is and we make the most of our time (which is usually just quick catch ups on the phone). |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 31, 2024 22:03:35 GMT
Yes I agree with tnr9. No matter the reason people may have not had their emotional needs met by their parental attachment figures, or perhaps all out were abused by them, the thing to come to terms with may not be the diagnosis of what caused the new generation of multi-generational trauma, but that it has happened. So while perhaps the person may be right or wrong if the parent wasn't formally diagnosed, they are still right in regards to their feelings of not having their own needs met, or not feeling like they had a voice, or having experienced outright abuse -- these experiences shouldn't be invalidated. Part of coming to terms with being on the receiving end of generational trauma often is being able to verbalize it and to see all the players as different and independent entities. Someone's father was a flawed and complicated man with their own issues, rather than was a larger than life extension of self. Someone's mom had her own life outside of the child and was an adult who perhaps made bad choices in how they treated their kids. That doesn't mean holding on to anger about it, but it does mean differentiating yourself from the experience instead of letting everything bleed together. In other words, verbalizing and coming to terms with your needs not being met and understanding that narrative is important because it means you're feeling out where your healthy boundaries are and where another person ends and you begin. Avoidants tend to consciously fear engulfment, and anxious tend to consciously fear abandonment. Avoidants may also subconsciously fear abandonment and anxious may subconsciously fear engulfment. Both fears come out of a space of having unhealthy boundaries, an unhealthy understanding of boundaries, and an incomplete view of self (because a fully formed identity with healthy boundaries allows people to emotionally regulate themselves and not deeply fall into these fears). Engulfment fears very often come from being enmeshed with an attachment figure. A lot of the foundation for this is subconscious and people may not be aware of the source of these fears, especially if they were raised in these types of dynamics. They seem so normal because it's all they grew up with that the person may not know to question if the upbringing or behaviors they experienced and learned are actually dysfunctional. If that's just the way life is, then it's easy to be afraid of entering new relationships that feel similarly uncomfortable and threatening to a sense of self on some level, despite also providing some joy. |
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Post by seeking on Nov 1, 2024 2:10:33 GMT
I have accepted that he probably should never have been a father. Wow, this struck me. I would never say this about my dad. Probably due to something along the lines of what Alexandra said (not having differentiation and seeing him as a larger-than-life extension - or something). But when I read this, I did think, I haven't had so much of a dad. He was a man, who had me, did a few things that were dad-like over my life. He's a family member. I'm at a time in my life and his where I can enjoy talking to him and he's actually guided me now to some very life-changing things. But guide sounds nurturing. It was more like nag, pester, harass lol. But that was in very recent years. Beyond that it is like a big gaping feeling of not really having a male presence that was safe, nurturing, protective (maybe some of it through my imaginging/fantasy).
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Post by seeking on Nov 1, 2024 2:24:01 GMT
Yes I agree with tnr9 . No matter the reason people may have not had their emotional needs met by their parental attachment figures, or perhaps all out were abused by them, the thing to come to terms with may not be the diagnosis of what caused the new generation of multi-generational trauma, but that it has happened. So while perhaps the person may be right or wrong if the parent wasn't formally diagnosed, they are still right in regards to their feelings of not having their own needs met, or not feeling like they had a voice, or having experienced outright abuse -- these experiences shouldn't be invalidated. Part of coming to terms with being on the receiving end of generational trauma often is being able to verbalize it and to see all the players as different and independent entities. Someone's father was a flawed and complicated man with their own issues, rather than was a larger than life extension of self. Someone's mom had her own life outside of the child and was an adult who perhaps made bad choices in how they treated their kids. That doesn't mean holding on to anger about it, but it does mean differentiating yourself from the experience instead of letting everything bleed together. In other words, verbalizing and coming to terms with your needs not being met and understanding that narrative is important because it means you're feeling out where your healthy boundaries are and where another person ends and you begin. Avoidants tend to consciously fear engulfment, and anxious tend to consciously fear abandonment. Avoidants may also subconsciously fear abandonment and anxious may subconsciously fear engulfment. Both fears come out of a space of having unhealthy boundaries, an unhealthy understanding of boundaries, and an incomplete view of self (because a fully formed identity with healthy boundaries allows people to emotionally regulate themselves and not deeply fall into these fears). Engulfment fears very often come from being enmeshed with an attachment figure. A lot of the foundation for this is subconscious and people may not be aware of the source of these fears, especially if they were raised in these types of dynamics. They seem so normal because it's all they grew up with that the person may not know to question if the upbringing or behaviors they experienced and learned are actually dysfunctional. If that's just the way life is, then it's easy to be afraid of entering new relationships that feel similarly uncomfortable and threatening to a sense of self on some level, despite also providing some joy. What do you mean by a "larger-than-life extension of self"? I think I know but I'm not sure. And it sounds true and like I lack differentiation from my parents (maybe). Just trying this on... But yes this all makes sense. A general "I didn't get my needs met. There was some abuse. Things were scary. I didn't feel seen, understood, heard." Yes. That is helpful. I can do that much. The word my therapist uses is "invisible" and that is what I'm working with - both back then and how I've carried that through my 52 years, worn a mask, pushed through and am now uncovering a self that is something I've long-hidden. It's pretty bewildering but also exciting and new. And little by little I'm shifting out of shame and hiding and honoring myself and my "truth" (though I don't love that phrase, it's pretty much what it is). And I've denied it for a long time. I'm still not entirely sure how this is playing into finding a partner or what happens for me. But thinking it all through and this is helpful. Thank you. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 1, 2024 3:05:25 GMT
When I'm thinking of larger than life in this context, I'm thinking of a couple different possibilities. One is, kids see their parents as god-like, and when you've been raised in service to your parents instead of by parents trying to meet your needs, you don't necessarily mature out of that view. And they don't want you to. The other is people with big personalities that may not leave room for anyone else, including if those people have personality disorders. Examples aren't limited to these two, but they were what was top of mind when I wrote it.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 1, 2024 12:01:42 GMT
I have accepted that he probably should never have been a father. Wow, this struck me. I would never say this about my dad. Probably due to something along the lines of what Alexandra said (not having differentiation and seeing him as a larger-than-life extension - or something). But when I read this, I did think, I haven't had so much of a dad. He was a man, who had me, did a few things that were dad-like over my life. He's a family member. I'm at a time in my life and his where I can enjoy talking to him and he's actually guided me now to some very life-changing things. But guide sounds nurturing. It was more like nag, pester, harass lol. But that was in very recent years. Beyond that it is like a big gaping feeling of not really having a male presence that was safe, nurturing, protective (maybe some of it through my imaginging/fantasy). I couldn’t either for many decades…instead I took the blame for his non involvement, cruel words and lack of any care towards us or our mom. He won a custody battle for me but then did not want me…I was 10. I know his family history….his mom would not allow him to wear clothes he wanted to, do anything that was considered”bad” and expected him to become a doctor or lawyer….he became a psychiatrist. His dad was a principal at an high school and wrote opinions to the newspaper. He wanted our dad to do good in the world and did not (as far as our dad was concerned) stand up to his wife. After the divorce, our dad would not let them see us unless he was with us and he would say extremely mean things to them. He called our mom…”that woman”…..he said I was “this” (holding his fingers an inch apart) close to normal. He made promises of grand vacations and would end up taking us to medical conferences and thrift stores. As far as I know, he excelled at his job but that was really it for him. As far as I could tell…he never found peace, he never matured beyond his blame of others and he never got to really know his kids. In the last few years of his life, he tried to connect more…..he did apologize for some of the things that he said and he was more interested in my life. But it was hard to connect to a man I had looked upon as a sperm donor. Then he developed Parkinson’s and slowly lost all aspects of who he was. My brothers and I did get to see him a few days before he passed away. We all got to spend individual time with him. I told him I forgave him, that he was loved and that he could let go because we were all ok. I think some people just are not meant to be parents….and that is what I have concluded about our dad. |
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Post by seeking on Nov 1, 2024 13:45:37 GMT
tnr9 thank you for sharing more. it's a heartbreaking story. i'm glad you were able to arrive more at a place of peace with it. alexandra okay, that makes sense. I hope I'm not doing that with my daughter! She relies on me for everything and I am her world. she has autism, social anxiety, and this world is a little crazy right now so we home school and she is pretty much under my wing a lot of the time. I feel like I made my parents larger than life somehow because of not having needs met. Like I always imagined they could/would meet them and they were the source. I think I'm still dealing with that to an extent. Anyway, I'll post more my dilemma separately but thank you.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 1, 2024 14:49:50 GMT
tnr9 thank you for sharing more. it's a heartbreaking story. i'm glad you were able to arrive more at a place of peace with it. alexandra okay, that makes sense. I hope I'm not doing that with my daughter! She relies on me for everything and I am her world. she has autism, social anxiety, and this world is a little crazy right now so we home school and she is pretty much under my wing a lot of the time. I feel like I made my parents larger than life somehow because of not having needs met. Like I always imagined they could/would meet them and they were the source. I think I'm still dealing with that to an extent. Anyway, I'll post more my dilemma separately but thank you. Thank you seeking. The lesson I gained from my dad is that work and prestige and money do not really matter…..what matters is how you treat people and by extension animals and our world. Family (whether biological or otherwise) and friends matter, hobbies matter and self care matters. My path is different from someone from a loving home…but I feel blessed that I am not defined by that history but have looked for tools and therapy to overcome it.🙂 |
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Post by seeking on Nov 1, 2024 15:58:20 GMT
I guess the thing I'm most trying to figure out right now with my coach is this pattern of going toward and pulling back. I'm not really pursuing men right now.... and she catches me when I do - she wants them to take more the lead. But she thinks when they're available, I find stuff wrong. So I don't know if that would make me fearful/dismissive or just plain ambivalent, but ambivalence is what resonates the most and where I land time and time again.
There's another part of me that just goes, "I just don't like the guy." It's really nothing more than that. (But I don't know if that's all of what's going on).
Simultaneously, I've had to ask my dad for money. Not the hugest amount, but a significant chunk. It's been the most bewildering thing. I can't do it. I finally got up the nerve a year ago, sat down with him, he gave me a hard time, and then finally relented but then gave me half and never finished giving me the rest. For a year, I tried to muster the courage to talk to him about it, and finally when things got pretty bad here financially, I had to go back and do it again, this time for more. And it was the craziest thing. I *could not* get myself to ask! Phone conversation after phone conversation, I would hang up without saying anything.
There was definitely a "younger" part of me here that was afraid of getting my dad mad, getting in trouble, fearing his wrath, criticism, "lecture" --
Quick history/context: before Covid, there was no relationship with my dad. I mostly avoided him and dreaded when he called even though I longed to have a relationship with him, I gave up. It was too much, too hard, he was too unpredictable and scary and explosive and difficult. I think he has heavy rejection-sensitivity and would lash out if I didn't answer the phone or pursue me to where I'd shut down and go into freeze. I was always going through a lot - court, moving, my daughter's illness, single parenting, working - and it was like he didn't even want to hear about any of that. Or ignored it. It was all "invisible."
Fast forward, I did A LOT of work to be able to have any semblance of a relationship with my father. And we are actually on pretty decent terms now. But largely, it's intellectual -- we talk about religion, the world, writers, and it's a great connection. But it doesn't include so much about my life. Maybe a tiny bit when relevant.
But largely it's "you should get a job as a secretary in the county" kind of thing so that I have "financial stability" even though that would be impossible b/c I not only homeschool my daughter but now she's showing up with a lot of immune system issues and possibly lyme. It takes all of me to take care of her and also even work just from my desk at home - never mind consistently in an office environment with no help or support.
So I mostly don't talk to my dad.
One time, back in August, after I had a family party for my daughter's birthday, my dad drove away and said "I'm going to take care of you financially."
I couldn't even take that in because I didn't know what it meant and I know better than to even believe it. Back in the summer after meeting with financial advisors about investments, my dad shared (without me even asking) "you're in for a rude awakening." ??
He's insisted we buy the house (or he'd help me) we live in, but we can't. It's problematic and the market is crazy so someone else is buying it and we have a year to find somewhere new. But my dad won't even talk about somewhere else. He just says "that ship has sailed."
Last year, he bought me a car randomly.
You get the idea. It's not all one thing. It's not horrible. But it's something. At the very least, it's inconsistent.
I was at my parents house this week, and my mom said "Your dad left some money for you." But it turns out it wasn't for me. She knows I need help right now and her mantra is "talk to your father." I said, "mom, I'm actually paying money to talk to a therapist about talking to my father (about money)!" It's getting absurd. So she talked to him but came back with nothing. Later, I said, "What's going on with dad?" And she said, "I don't know."
The thing is, though, I shifted greatly in just the last two weeks. Instead of hiding my needs, and feeling SO incredibly ashamed and scared, I have come to terms with things -- I'm doing the absolute very best I can. Most people in my circumstances would not have gotten this far. Or even close. I can honor myself. I know how much I do even if other people oddly refuse to see it (like my sister, included).
I also know that my family is very neurodivergent. I get how some days I have very little capacity and snap at my kid. That I struggle and have a lot on my plate -- as does my dad. I don't wish to make him a predator/demon.
But with all that said, my coach said this week "I think this is the same thing you do with men." She suggested I go toward and pull away like how I've been with my dad. She wants me to open up to my dad, make it his idea to help me, tell him my situation, be vulnerable -- and thinks this will heal things and help my stuff with men. I'm not there.
I have to cut this short and get on a meeting, but basically she's saying my back and forth with my dad is like how I am with men. And I'm trying to make that connection so I will come back when I can and think on it some more.
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Post by seeking on Nov 1, 2024 19:35:22 GMT
I think that's it. My coach says when I talk about my issues with my dad, I do the same thing with my body language when I'm talking about a new man that I can't go forward with, etc. I don't think it's that black and white. Like I said, some of it is really just preference. A guy who lives many states over and has 5 kids (shared custody) or a man who seems underemployed and undereducated and has an accent that grates on me. I'm pretty sure those aren't avoidant tendencies but legit "not for me" tendencies.
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