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Post by curiouser on Mar 29, 2024 3:48:12 GMT
Last year, I made a very important connection with someone and now I'm afraid of losing her as a friend. She's a writer and music journalist who I contacted as a fan. We immediately hit it off and she actually started freelancing for me, and I started collaborating on her writing project. We became friends very quickly, and went from being total strangers to communicating almost every day.
I don't want to bore you with too many details, so I will try to get to the point: it has become clear to me that she is very much a fearful-avoidant type. We became very close, very quickly, and at some point I think I tried too hard to ingratiate myself to her and she started becoming dismissive and disengaged—to the point that it affected her work. I confronted her about this, and was overly direct and even accusatory which, in retrospect, was a big mistake. I thought I could smooth it out and I did apologize, again in a very direct and sincere way. Frankly, the apology seemed to go over even worse than the original confrontation. She very quickly put up a wall between us and it took a lot of time and patience before she started opening up to me again.
She stopped working for me about six months ago, to have her first child, and I have been in very little contact with her since. I sent her family a package for Christmas and she was very, very touched and appreciative. A couple months later, I submitted a couple articles to her for her writing project, and she wanted me to edit one of them but was very vague and avoidant about what she actually wanted, and ended up blowing me off.
A couple more months went by, and I sent her a text. It basically said, in so many words, that I feel like we've developed a bad dynamic around our communication and I'm afraid of losing her as a friend—which is an true, but kind of tone-deaf on my part because she's not someone who can really communicate around feelings in that way. Luckily, though, she did reply to me and apologize for not getting back to me. She said she has been overwhelmed with childcare, her partner has been working all the time and they don't have family to help them. I 100% believe this is true.
I decided to send her a mix CD and a letter thanking her for her help last year, and some words of encouragement. I also gifted her one of those pre-prepped meal delivery services, thinking this would be a helpful gift for a mom who is time-poor. We'll see how that goes over.
Here's my dilemma: this is someone who I've come to care about a lot and who is very important to me. She is very much in love with her partner, and I'm very happy with my loving wife of several years. I don't have romantic feelings for her, but I miss her and think about her a lot. I worry that I've lost, or am on the verge of losing, one of the best friends I have made in a long time. But she has major attachment issues and it's clear to me that this factors into how we became so close so quickly, and why she then distanced herself from me. I keep telling myself that this shouldn't be so difficult since I just want to be her friend, but I have to remind myself that even non-romantic attention can be unwanted or inappropriate.
We almost had kind of a "work spouse" relationship for a moment, and I don't think it's unreasonable at all for her to pull away and focus on her own family. We were friends, coworkers and collaborators at the same time, with no clear boundaries between these roles, and this would be potentially overwhelming even for a securely-attached person. I feel myself slipping into this trap where I'm going to make some gesture to try to make clear to her how much she means to me, and this is going to trigger her to ghost me completely. Hopefully I haven't already done this, but we'll see. I can be patient and wait for our paths to cross again in the future, but in the meantime I could use some advice on how to preserve what's left of this friendship without alienating myself from her completely.
I'm happy to provide more details or answer any follow-up questions. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Post by introvert on Mar 29, 2024 12:10:01 GMT
Dear god,she has a new baby and that is overwhelming, coming from a woman who has given birth 4 times. Leave her alone! Let's focus on her for a moment, and what she's dealing with. That can give you some perspective.
Childbirth is extremely painful and leaves a woman with lasting physical discomfort.
The choice to nurse or to not nurse her baby will have hormonal implications as well as emotional ones.
Babies require 24-7, 7 day a week 52 weeks per year care. Let that sink in. And her partner is gone a lot.
I could go on but I realize that it doesn't matter because you have questionable boundaries here, and seem quite selfish in your expectations. Have you considered seeing a therapist to unpack this need to encroach on this woman's life with her husband and new baby?
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Post by introvert on Mar 29, 2024 12:16:41 GMT
Well on second thought. I will go on because I'm flabbergasted at the idea of a mother of a new baby dealing with this from you...
She's likely exhausted. EXHAUSTED. I bet the last thing she has energy for is to reassure you. She's still waking with her baby. Presumably next to her husband whom she rarely gets to see and whom she misses and needs. They are loving this new baby and yet don't have enough time for their relationship. Their life is filled with love and wonder, new discoveries as parents, and a shifting dynamic in their own marriage. Butt out!
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Post by curiouser on Mar 29, 2024 13:58:32 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I think what you're saying is correct and I think this whole experience has made me realize I have some problems with boundaries that I didn't realize.
Let me ask you this: so I sent her a note and at the end I put something like, "I'm sure we'll catch up some day in the future" which, to me, is an indirect way of saying "I'm not going to bother you." I asked a coworker what is an actually helpful gift for new parents and she said that she got one of those meal delivery kits when her baby was born and it was a big help. So I thought those two things would be OK but maybe they weren't.
I can't take them back now, but I can cancel the meal kit after the first week and then maybe it won't seem imposing. I think the right thing to do would have been no not reach out at all. My wife had a very close friend with poor boundaries, and I had problems getting along with her. After she had our child her friend complained about them drifting apart and this was enough for my wife to stop being her friend. I think when you have a dependent baby, any signs of neediness from adults are just repellant.
I think where I have been stuck is figuring out what would be supportive versus intrusive and I think the answer is that there's probably nothing I can do, from so far away, that would actually read as support and not intrusion.
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Post by introvert on Mar 29, 2024 14:50:05 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I think what you're saying is correct and I think this whole experience has made me realize I have some problems with boundaries that I didn't realize. Let me ask you this: so I sent her a note and at the end I put something like, "I'm sure our paths will cross some time in the future. Hang in there!" which, to me, is an indirect way of saying "I'm not going to bother you." I asked a coworker what is an actually helpful gift for new parents and she said that she got one of those meal delivery kits when her baby was born and it was a big help. So I thought those two things would be OK but maybe they weren't. I can't take them back now, but I can cancel the meal kit after the first week and then maybe it won't seem imposing. I think the right thing to do would have been no not reach out at all. My wife had a very close friend with poor boundaries, and I had problems getting along with her. After she had our child her friend complained about them drifting apart and this was enough for my wife to stop being her friend. I think when you have a dependent baby, any signs of neediness from adults are just repellant. I think where I have been stuck is figuring out what would be supportive versus intrusive and I think the answer is that there's probably nothing I can do, from so far away, that would actually read as support and not intrusion. I'd recommend leaving the gift of the meal kit in place, and avoid any further drama by getting yourself to a therapist to unpack this issue in yourself. Now that you are aware of it, you can focus your efforts on your own personal development. Just leave her in peace and proceed with your own healing. Best to you. |
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Post by alexandra on Mar 29, 2024 17:08:54 GMT
I generally agree with introvert, including just leaving the meal kit in place. I think the follow up questions to ask yourself when considering your own boundaries are: Why have you been choosing not to take her at her word or believe her when she tells you something (I read your post as she did reassure you it's nothing personal, she's just super busy with the baby)? Why have you just sent gifts without asking her what she needs ("oh, you had a new baby, congratulations! Do you have a registry?" -- she'll even have a better idea of what she needs now than she did prior to birth)? Why does this relationship need to be all or nothing right now on your schedule instead of there being enough trust that it will ebb and flow depending on everyone's busyness level and life stage, as friendships do? If your needs weren't getting met, why did you jump to analyzing her attachment style and trying to decide how to guess the best ways to influence her instead of depersonalizing and re-centering yourself? Those questions are places to start to explore the boundaries theme, they aren't indictments about you or things to beat yourself up about or regret doing wrong. I think everything will be fine if you want to occasionally ask how the baby is or send something interesting maybe by text as long as you can depersonalize it, not expect anything, and are okay with her responding entirely on her (really, on her baby's) schedule. Her availability right now in all likelihood has no reflection on you whatsoever. |
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Post by curiouser on Mar 29, 2024 18:03:39 GMT
Hi Alexandra, good questions and I will answer them point-by-point: - I tend to be very direct, and she is naturally very indirect. This was a bad dynamic when we were in contact because I always felt like I had to read between the lines with her, because she won't actually say what she needs or wants.
One thing I forgot to mention: I needed her tax ID to finish my taxes. I asked her for this three times over the course of about six weeks. I really tried not to ask a third time but I couldn't hold out any longer. I think she was deliberately not opening my emails because she was too overwhelmed to think about the articles, and she assumed I was emailing her about that (again: this is me assuming because she is so avoidant and there's often very little to go on). But at the time I thought to myself "fine about the articles, but if you can't even send me your tax ID I'm going to get screwed by the I.R.S." and then I started to feel burned, and like she would never be my friend again.
- I was always told that when there's a death in the family, don't ask what you can do to help; just help. People are grieving and can't think of that would help them, and part of helping is making the decision and just doing it. I guess I assumed this rule would also apply to an overwhelmed mom.
- I hear you about all-or-nothing. I expected very little from her in this time but again, the tax issue started to extinguish any glimmer I had that we would be friends again in the future.
- Just having this conversation made it clear to me that I need to look at my own behavior and not hers. The reason I came to this point was because I was going around in my head trying to figure out what led to this, and like I said she's a writer, So I went back and re-read the things she wrote about herself and her own life story, and it just clicked for me: that she has some issues that are outside of anything I could have done to her.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 29, 2024 19:18:19 GMT
I don't necessarily agree about the death stuff. Grieving is difficult, and it's true, people may not know what they're going to need. But give them a chance to tell you by at least asking. Some people want to be checked in on, some want space to deal with grief. I've been taught offer to send food, offer to be there to listen, help, or go out for coffee, or if you're especially close, ask if they need help with housework or something, but still give them the chance to say yes or no or tell you what they think they need. When I was younger and insecure, yeah, I'd have had a lot of difficulty communicating my needs, but it was due to my insecure attachment style and not actually due to being overwhelmed with the death. I always was having difficulty communicating my needs, grieving or not. But I'd still have been able to say if I didn't want something. As I've gotten older and matured, I'd be offended if someone assumed I didn't know my own mind. While I could certainly appreciate someone wanting to put in effort to help, they'd be actually a million times more helpful if they asked me what I needed and did that instead of assuming. Otherwise, they may end up inadvertently imposing or sending something that's a wasted effort / item because I can't actually use it.
Same is true with baby stuff. People raise their kids differently and have different needs. So it makes it impossible to correctly assume.
In regards to the tax ID, yes, that's important. Important enough that a phone call, and if she doesn't answer a text to say what you needed, seems easier. She may be overwhelmed and forget when she doesn't answer immediately, rather than avoiding. That doesn't mean she's not avoidant, especially if she's indirect, but you don't need to over function to try to anticipate her needs or influence her behavior. She's an adult, and trying to manage her actions, feelings, behavior etc. is co-dependent.
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Post by mrob on Mar 29, 2024 23:13:30 GMT
Something a bit unhinged here.
Contacted as a fan
Started collaborating
Working “for” me
What is this? An employer/employee relationship? I think you need to get this straight before anything else applies. At best, you’re a fan who weaselled your way into her life and she’s put up a bounday that you can’t handle. At worst, you’ve behaved in a way that as an employer would see you in court in my country.
If somebody chased my wife and bought her home stuff, I’d be asking questions. I suggest the way to peace in this is to look at your own lack of boundaries. How did you put yourself in a position to be hurt? Your attachment style?
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Post by curiouser on Mar 30, 2024 1:53:27 GMT
Well I think you're right about that, too (although "unhinged" might be an overstatement) because even though I always referred to her as a 'coworker' and not an 'employee', the truth is that she was working for me. And that relationship can't be a lateral one because I have to tell her what to do. And a friendship really should be non-hierarchical. But in this case, we would never have gotten to know each other if we hadn't been working together.
But I think the point also stands that if someone puts up an unspoken boundary (as in this case), that might actually be correct and appropriate. In the end, I could find someone else to work with (although she did an excellent job and was a huge help to me), and we don't have to collaborate anymore, either, but then I don't think there's much basis for a friendship there anymore—unfortunately. We could go back to being pen pals, which is what we were in the beginning. But we live far away from one another and will likely never meet in real life.
As far as the last point about buying her "home stuff," yeah, I don't know if that was right either. Because until now the only thing I ever sent her was records, and they were for the family. She sent me a video of her husband and the baby dancing to one of the records, which I thought was very cool and appreciated. I took that to mean he was OK with it, too. I know he likes my writing but we have never interacted. Believe me, I regret sending anything else. But I can't undo it now.
Oh and to your final question: it's a good one, and I have no idea how I ended up in a position to be hurt. It's the strangest thing. If I was grappling with romantic feelings for her, at least that would make sense. I can honestly say I've never had those kinds of feelings for her ever, and I would be fine never meeting her in person. And yet, I miss her a lot and the thought of us never being friends again made me really depressed.
Sometimes, people who publish online, bloggers and podcasters, they become like "friend simulators". You listen to people have a conversation and your mind kind of tricks you into thinking you're talking to people you know. Some people do this with celebrities, or social media influencers. She's the only person I've ever written fan mail to, ever. She was kind of my friend simulator, for a time—and then my real friend. You'd think that would be weird too, from her perspective: here's someone who I don't know, but who knows things about me.
But people who write about themselves and put that out into the world do, on some level, want to be understood or to reach people. And her experiences and perspective really spoke to me, her story is interesting and she's an admirable person. It was a special relationship, and I always knew it had a built in expiration date. She would start her family and that has nothing to do with me. I should be able to accept that but I've had a hard time with it.
The last thing I'll say, and I know I'm getting long-winded and overly introspective: my own child is going on 13. Seeing and hearing her excitement about her child reminded me how exciting it was for me and my wife, and made me realize my own fear of "losing" my child to adolescence. I was happy for her and still am, and I know my own family life will change when I don't have a 'little one' anymore (he's not little anymore, but his voice hasn't cracked yet so he's still little to me).
Sorry, that's probably more of an answer than you cared to read.
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Post by mrob on Mar 30, 2024 2:25:46 GMT
I have been an employer and the relationships I’ve had with some people that have worked for me have been more like friendships, but at the end of the day, if you’re paying someone, you have a position of power over them. It’s up to you to keep some sort of boundary in place, lest you abuse the inherent power imbalance. I think you found the boundary.
I know that sounds dry, especially when you’ve come from a fandom position in the beginning, but unfortunately once the employment line is crossed, the power dynamics change.
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Post by mrob on Mar 30, 2024 2:31:55 GMT
Goodness, I see your edit. Yep, that’s difficult, and has the ingredients of a full blown mid life crisis. Had you met, the lack of boundaries could possibly have been catastrophic.
I would say you barely got out of this one and that her boundaries have done you a favour.
It sounds like you’ve got a bit to work on out of this.
You’re treading a well worn path. Come here looking for answers to explain someone else’s behaviour and end up having to look at oneself.
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