Finding a Voice

Hm, epic, normally I agree with you on taking into consideration that people have different needs and timelines, but this is such a thing that happens to women outside of attachment issues. These kinds of guys get really gropey right away and (at least in western society) women are normalized to be polite, not leave early, not challenge the guy about it, stay and deal with it. The men don't respect the women and may hear no as a challenge and keep pushing anyway. It does feel really gross to personal boundaries, and is hard enough to deal with because of how we've been socialized. As an insecurely attached person who can't communicate properly, it's even worse. It contributes to how you can end up in gray areas (he said/she said stuff, the guy may or may not realize he's being disrespectful -- more often than not he doesn't care because his date is there to satisfy his needs, the woman ends up feeling obligated or pressured because she gave in more than she wanted to to save face or keep the peace).

I give everyone whatever validation they need, no matter what gender, to state your boundary once around unwanted touching and then leave if it's not respected! It is okay, screw the polite norms. I know the point of the thread is it's hard to state it or not fall into people-pleasing as an insecure, but it's so incredibly important to acknowledge this is a thing that happens, it's unfortunately normal, and maybe talking about that here and knowing someone is on your side will make it easier to leave next time.

being groped by a stranger is gross.
it's a huge boundary violation.

yep, women are conditioned to accept unwelcome touch, and sometimes when confronted a man with horrible boundaries will increase the behavior to push limits.
intimate touch on a first date should be explicitly agreed upon not assumed, and a person with respectful boundaries with strangers can easily understand this.

if a man is gropey immediately there is good cause to be concerned about his willingness and ability to respect your physical boundaries and it can lead to terrible things.

why behave in an intimate way without establishing intimacy or trust?
that's for casual sex encounters. fine, if that's what two people want. but i've never failed to express my intentions for dating from the get to, so gropey means gross, inappropriate, and REJECTABLE.

gross

😋😘

Curious about what you think about what we owe each other versus what we owe ourselves?

I think we do owe each other speaking up about the boundary as soon as it comes up before judging the person over it (it might be a legitimate misunderstanding, and how else will people learn?). But when you don't know someone and it's an early date, you may put yourself in danger by not listening to your gut if something is making you uncomfortable.

I wonder if there's wires being crossed here about the scenario of judging someone who is awkwardly bidding for connection in a mutually established situation versus a person violating boundaries inappropriately?

I've been in these situations several times, as have many women. Nothing too bad has happened to me because I will leave, but many friends have not been as fortunate.

Thanks for repairing with me juniper

I appreciate it. hug!

I'm totally on board with the not assuming. I have been groped by total strangers and it's disgusting. I have been groped by complete strangers at a car wash, a gas station and a bar (literally walking by minding my own business). I don't think men have any idea what it's like.