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Post by epicgum on Nov 14, 2018 20:14:04 GMT
Well, expressing feelings, opinions and anger...it's been an interesting experiment. I think we have soemwhat different moral values as to what we owe each other as human beings. Obviously you are just wrong!  Curious about what you think about what we owe each other versus what we owe ourselves? I think we do owe each other speaking up about the boundary as soon as it comes up before judging the person over it (it might be a legitimate misunderstanding, and how else will people learn?). But when you don't know someone and it's an early date, you may put yourself in danger by not listening to your gut if something is making you uncomfortable. I wonder if there's wires being crossed here about the scenario of judging someone who is awkwardly bidding for connection in a mutually established situation versus a person violating boundaries inappropriately? I've been in these situations several times, as have many women. Nothing too bad has happened to me because I will leave, but many friends have not been as fortunate. I think we owe each other respect and value as human beings, regardless of what we have done. "Disgust" words signal contempt and dehumanization in my eyes. I've probably taken this too far, wrapping my own emotional shit in and misread what was being said to a degree, is it the actions or the person that is viewed with disgust, but it is still somewhat of a fine line. There's a good Amy Cuddy Ted talk where she talks about doing brain scans with people as they look at other people with various qualities (high or low status) and relationships (are they friendly or unfriendly). 1. People with high status and who are friendly light up the admiration part of the brain. 2. People with high status who are not friendly light up the fear part of the brain. 3. People with low status who are friendly activate the pity part of the brain. 4. People with low status who are unfriendly (she uses the example of homeless people)...the brain doesn't see them as people at all. This disturbs me a great deal, and I think that it is tied up in the expressions of disgust. With the guys in question, he is low status (you aren't interested), and crossing your boundaries (threatening) so this is the last category that he ends up in...but that doesn't make it ok in my eyes...even if his behavior is NOT ok, to label someone like that. In terms of the gender differences, yes I think there are definite blind spots. I've heard it said that "women fear getting raped, men fear rejection and humiliation" not that the reverse doesn't also happen, but I think writ large I think there's some truth to that. Just as men (myself included) do not really understand the fear of walking alone down an ally, women do not understand the feeling of being labeled "the creep," and the residence in category 4 that it entails. Like, dont get me wrong, being in physical danger is way way worse than being in category 4, but putting then in contrast really understates the impact of it. Think about it, have your ever thought of yourself as someone that other people see as a sexual predator? Someone unwanted and creepy and dangerous? I would guess "no," (although please dont be insulted if I'm wrong here) because the cultural script is that women are never dangerous (even though that is untrue). In addition, society trains men that to have value and fit their gender role that they should be pursuers, that they should be assertive and dominant, you should make moves and that this is what women desire and what is expected of you. It is a frustrating guessing game, being told that you should aggressively pursue and at the same time aggressive pursuit makes you a creep and the difference exists in the brain of a person that you can't see. Those are my somewhat unorganized thoughts.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 20:56:13 GMT
Great insights there epicgum ! I saw a statement today that said that ostracism is THE most painful thing to experience (ref Richard Grannon / Sam Vaknin). I have experienced this (as well as serious life threats / actual harm) - and as black sheep will know, it is incredibly painful / debilitating. You haven't taken it too far - not for me. And there are homeless people are are actually decent human beings... Women are socialised to be pursued, to not be dominant or aggressive ... yet we take a risk walking down an alleyway - it's all a game. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 14, 2018 21:22:34 GMT
And this guy didn’t get to the kiss bc I turned away...my problem was the hands all over me which presented in the moment. I totally froze. No surprise, I'm big on boundaries, lol. I usually tell guys before hand I don't like people touching me that I don't know. The guy you are describing, I probably would've left. Telling them up front has worked for me. Gropey guys are gross. Well, Mary...that’s exactly what I should’ve done...told him I don’t want a stranger touching me and then called it a night!! If I’m ever in that situation again, I WILL make myself speak up! 💪 |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 14, 2018 22:00:28 GMT
Well, expressing feelings, opinions and anger...it's been an interesting experiment. I think we have soemwhat different moral values as to what we owe each other as human beings. Obviously you are just wrong! Epic- I strongly disagree and I’m surprised you don’t see a need for physical boundaries on a first date or any other relationship for that matter. I don’t see this as having “different moral views” or a difference of opinion or judgment call or any one of those things. A stranger was groping me. Unwelcome touch. Period. If he didn’t know it- he should have by my pulling way. Whether he was completely unaware of his inappropriate touching or not, it doesn’t change the fact that he was, in fact, inappropriate. I’m not sure why you’re insulted by my repulsion. How can one make themselves NOT feel repulsed? It’s not voluntary. When a stranger places his hand between my thighs- You bet it’s a clear violation of my personal boundaries and physical space. Some men are only looking to take advantage of women and have no intention of showing them any kind of respect- women have been conditioned historically to be people pleasers and accept bad behavior from the opposite sex. This man will never get a second date with a woman unless she’s just looking to hook up. He was gross. Disgusting. Repulsive. Completely inappropriate...and he knew it. That’s why he said- I guess I’m too affectionate for you? No, he was too much of a molester for me. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 14, 2018 22:02:03 GMT
@faithhopelove - yes to all of the inability to express my needs, previously. Until now that I have changed. Now I'll call someone out on their inappropriate actions. However, there is a difference between groping and hugging. Funny, as this came up recently with a couple of friends, one a hugger the other not (you can learn how to adjust to someone's energy and read when you are acting over or just on their boundaries). You can gently push another's boundaries so that they are not quite comfortable but will still trust you. There's a bit of shaming going on here, which isn;t really necessary. epicgum - well done on expressing your feelings! Keep doing that - remember that there will always be others who are uncomfortable with that and also that sometimes the pendulum swings far and wide at first / when new, before it stabilises. Again - control and power (allowing others to control you / have power over you / your needs / your wants / your feelings). If / when you learn the power of your own self-worth, you can overcome the compulsive denial of own feelings. I remember times when I thought I was self-respecting, yet I still let others trample my needs, almost in shock at my own freezing ... not anymore. Learn to respect and love yourself - and you will see that it DOES create respect from others and gives you back the power that was taken away from you / that others exploit. Hugging is one thing- I was ok with his welcome hug. It was the groping that proceeded that was a violation of my boundary. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 14, 2018 22:14:54 GMT
Thanks for responding, epicgum, that makes sense. I agree it is a fine line, which is related to different people having different boundaries and thresholds for fear. I'm a tiny person, but I was once on the accidental aggressor side in a messy AP/DA miscommunication. Nothing actually happened, but I felt absolutely awful about feeling like the creepy one in that encounter and thought about what a big deal it would have been if gender was reversed or if he wasn't a foot taller than me. Made sure to never be in someone else's personal space unwanted again, that's for sure. At the same time, most of my friends are guys and so much doesn't occur to them about being on that other side, so it's good to talk about and plant the seed to process. The takeaway to me here, aside from this isn't solely an attachment problem, is the same thing that's come up a lot in western media the last year or so... unhealthy socialization is messing with a lot of people! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 22:24:52 GMT
it's about feeling/being violated by personal touch that isn't appropriate to the level of involvement and without consent.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 22:28:09 GMT
Curious about what you think about what we owe each other versus what we owe ourselves? I think we do owe each other speaking up about the boundary as soon as it comes up before judging the person over it (it might be a legitimate misunderstanding, and how else will people learn?). But when you don't know someone and it's an early date, you may put yourself in danger by not listening to your gut if something is making you uncomfortable. I wonder if there's wires being crossed here about the scenario of judging someone who is awkwardly bidding for connection in a mutually established situation versus a person violating boundaries inappropriately? I've been in these situations several times, as have many women. Nothing too bad has happened to me because I will leave, but many friends have not been as fortunate. "Disgust" words signal contempt and dehumanization in my eyes. I've probably taken this too far, wrapping my own emotional shit in and misread what was being said to a degree, is it the actions or the person that is viewed with disgust, but it is still somewhat of a fine line. There's a good Amy Cuddy Ted talk where she talks about doing brain scans with people as they look at other people with various qualities (high or low status) and relationships (are they friendly or unfriendly). 1. People with high status and who are friendly light up the admiration part of the brain. 2. People with high status who are not friendly light up the fear part of the brain. 3. People with low status who are friendly activate the pity part of the brain. 4. People with low status who are unfriendly (she uses the example of homeless people)...the brain doesn't see them as people at all. This disturbs me a great deal, and I think that it is tied up in the expressions of disgust. With the guys in question, he is low status (you aren't interested), and crossing your boundaries (threatening) so this is the last category that he ends up in...but that doesn't make it ok in my eyes...even if his behavior is NOT ok, to label someone like that. In terms of the gender differences, yes I think there are definite blind spots. I've heard it said that "women fear getting raped, men fear rejection and humiliation" not that the reverse doesn't also happen, but I think writ large I think there's some truth to that. Just as men (myself included) do not really understand the fear of walking alone down an ally, women do not understand the feeling of being labeled "the creep," and the residence in category 4 that it entails. Like, dont get me wrong, being in physical danger is way way worse than being in category 4, but putting then in contrast really understates the impact of it. Think about it, have your ever thought of yourself as someone that other people see as a sexual predator? Someone unwanted and creepy and dangerous? I would guess "no," (although please dont be insulted if I'm wrong here) because the cultural script is that women are never dangerous (even though that is untrue). In addition, society trains men that to have value and fit their gender role that they should be pursuers, that they should be assertive and dominant, you should make moves and that this is what women desire and what is expected of you. It is a frustrating guessing game, being told that you should aggressively pursue and at the same time aggressive pursuit makes you a creep and the difference exists in the brain of a person that you can't see. Those are my somewhat unorganized thoughts. I completely disagree. Respect is earned. I don't respect a rapist/molester/abuser and I will use all the contempt words for a person that does that. Yes, I view a person like that with disgust. Nope, I won't sit here and say that person has value as a human being. I get your frustration over mixed messages and gender, but this exists in many realms and with both genders. Men should be dominant, but not creepy. Women should be sexy but not slutty. If a woman is raped, maybe she was wearing something too revealing. Just because there are mixed messages, doesn't make gropey behavior ok. Just my opinion. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 14, 2018 22:28:46 GMT
Curious about what you think about what we owe each other versus what we owe ourselves? I think we do owe each other speaking up about the boundary as soon as it comes up before judging the person over it (it might be a legitimate misunderstanding, and how else will people learn?). But when you don't know someone and it's an early date, you may put yourself in danger by not listening to your gut if something is making you uncomfortable. I wonder if there's wires being crossed here about the scenario of judging someone who is awkwardly bidding for connection in a mutually established situation versus a person violating boundaries inappropriately? I've been in these situations several times, as have many women. Nothing too bad has happened to me because I will leave, but many friends have not been as fortunate. I think we owe each other respect and value as human beings, regardless of what we have done. "Disgust" words signal contempt and dehumanization in my eyes. I've probably taken this too far, wrapping my own emotional shit in and misread what was being said to a degree, is it the actions or the person that is viewed with disgust, but it is still somewhat of a fine line. There's a good Amy Cuddy Ted talk where she talks about doing brain scans with people as they look at other people with various qualities (high or low status) and relationships (are they friendly or unfriendly). 1. People with high status and who are friendly light up the admiration part of the brain. 2. People with high status who are not friendly light up the fear part of the brain. 3. People with low status who are friendly activate the pity part of the brain. 4. People with low status who are unfriendly (she uses the example of homeless people)...the brain doesn't see them as people at all. This disturbs me a great deal, and I think that it is tied up in the expressions of disgust. With the guys in question, he is low status (you aren't interested), and crossing your boundaries (threatening) so this is the last category that he ends up in...but that doesn't make it ok in my eyes...even if his behavior is NOT ok, to label someone like that. In terms of the gender differences, yes I think there are definite blind spots. I've heard it said that "women fear getting raped, men fear rejection and humiliation" not that the reverse doesn't also happen, but I think writ large I think there's some truth to that. Just as men (myself included) do not really understand the fear of walking alone down an ally, women do not understand the feeling of being labeled "the creep," and the residence in category 4 that it entails. Like, dont get me wrong, being in physical danger is way way worse than being in category 4, but putting then in contrast really understates the impact of it. Think about it, have your ever thought of yourself as someone that other people see as a sexual predator? Someone unwanted and creepy and dangerous? I would guess "no," (although please dont be insulted if I'm wrong here) because the cultural script is that women are never dangerous (even though that is untrue). In addition, society trains men that to have value and fit their gender role that they should be pursuers, that they should be assertive and dominant, you should make moves and that this is what women desire and what is expected of you. It is a frustrating guessing game, being told that you should aggressively pursue and at the same time aggressive pursuit makes you a creep and the difference exists in the brain of a person that you can't see. Those are my somewhat unorganized thoughts. Epic- reality check in order. If men ARE viewed as sexual predators more than the opposite sex, it’s because sexual predators are majority men. Stats don’t lie. Child molesters, sexual assault. Those crime are largely committed by men. Women should be careful around strangers. So, maybe it’s not a false, unfair label as much as a fact. Pursuing a woman is one thing. I love when a man I like pursues me. Nothing better. However, touching someone without being in a relationship or receiving encouragement from the other person (mutual touch or a verbal offer) is clearly a violation. It seems you’re asserting women say they want one thing, then do another- claim they want attention and then complain about it. I gave no mixed signal- this guy didn’t care how I felt, he was going to push and do what he wanted. Maybe you or other men have trouble realizing that just because a female is nice to them, looks their direction or says hi, doesn’t mean she wants to bed down with him or even has any interest in him. If a guy is in doubt- he should ask before touching a woman. No harm in that. He should never assume a woman is next to him for his pleasure. And a woman shouldn’t be faulted for rejecting a man and feeling repulsed by him. A woman isn’t a 24 hour candy store. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 14, 2018 22:35:48 GMT
Curious about what you think about what we owe each other versus what we owe ourselves? I think we do owe each other speaking up about the boundary as soon as it comes up before judging the person over it (it might be a legitimate misunderstanding, and how else will people learn?). But when you don't know someone and it's an early date, you may put yourself in danger by not listening to your gut if something is making you uncomfortable. I wonder if there's wires being crossed here about the scenario of judging someone who is awkwardly bidding for connection in a mutually established situation versus a person violating boundaries inappropriately? I've been in these situations several times, as have many women. Nothing too bad has happened to me because I will leave, but many friends have not been as fortunate. I think we owe each other respect and value as human beings, regardless of what we have done. "Disgust" words signal contempt and dehumanization in my eyes. I've probably taken this too far, wrapping my own emotional shit in and misread what was being said to a degree, is it the actions or the person that is viewed with disgust, but it is still somewhat of a fine line. There's a good Amy Cuddy Ted talk where she talks about doing brain scans with people as they look at other people with various qualities (high or low status) and relationships (are they friendly or unfriendly). 1. People with high status and who are friendly light up the admiration part of the brain. 2. People with high status who are not friendly light up the fear part of the brain. 3. People with low status who are friendly activate the pity part of the brain. 4. People with low status who are unfriendly (she uses the example of homeless people)...the brain doesn't see them as people at all. This disturbs me a great deal, and I think that it is tied up in the expressions of disgust. With the guys in question, he is low status (you aren't interested), and crossing your boundaries (threatening) so this is the last category that he ends up in...but that doesn't make it ok in my eyes...even if his behavior is NOT ok, to label someone like that. In terms of the gender differences, yes I think there are definite blind spots. I've heard it said that "women fear getting raped, men fear rejection and humiliation" not that the reverse doesn't also happen, but I think writ large I think there's some truth to that. Just as men (myself included) do not really understand the fear of walking alone down an ally, women do not understand the feeling of being labeled "the creep," and the residence in category 4 that it entails. Like, dont get me wrong, being in physical danger is way way worse than being in category 4, but putting then in contrast really understates the impact of it. Think about it, have your ever thought of yourself as someone that other people see as a sexual predator? Someone unwanted and creepy and dangerous? I would guess "no," (although please dont be insulted if I'm wrong here) because the cultural script is that women are never dangerous (even though that is untrue). In addition, society trains men that to have value and fit their gender role that they should be pursuers, that they should be assertive and dominant, you should make moves and that this is what women desire and what is expected of you. It is a frustrating guessing game, being told that you should aggressively pursue and at the same time aggressive pursuit makes you a creep and the difference exists in the brain of a person that you can't see. Those are my somewhat unorganized thoughts. “Respect no matter what?” I don’t feel I owe a person respect no matter what...respect is earned. There are a lot of people who commit sick, heinous crimes. Of course I don’t respect them. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 22:51:15 GMT
haha- respect of a stranger simply means that i live and let live, not that i let them grab me. respect means you have a right to be here as much as i do, not that you have a right to be up on my body with your hands, without my permission. respect means that instead of clobbering you with my fist when you violate my personal boundaries by grabbing and touching my body without so much as asking permission, i'll clearly let you know with my words (not my hands) that it won't happen again. i won't even touch you or leave a mark.  respect means that i assume you are intelligent enough to understand my words when i tell you my feelings about your behavior and why i'll never give you the time of day let alone a handful of my flesh, should we have the unfortunate mishap of ever meeting again. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 14, 2018 23:42:49 GMT
haha- respect of a stranger simply means that i live and let live, not that i let them grab me. respect means you have a right to be here as much as i do, not that you have a right to be up on my body with your hands, without my permission. respect means that instead of clobbering you with my fist when you violate my personal boundaries by grabbing and touching my body without so much as asking permission, i'll clearly let you know with my words (not my hands) that it won't happen again. i won't even touch you or leave a mark. respect means that i assume you are intelligent enough to understand my words when i tell you my feelings about your behavior and why i'll never give you the time of day let alone a handful of my flesh, should we have the unfortunate mishap of ever meeting again. Yes...well said! |
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Post by 8675309 on Nov 15, 2018 0:55:40 GMT
I cant help because Im not AP but.... I would of voiced it but I cant believe he just didn't pick up on your body language, body language speaks volumes... I dont even know you and I can see what you would be like with that guy, Id be the same and be in this cringe mode.... or the fact that is WAY to fast for all that touching, total turn off and I would of wanted to run! LOL He certainly has 'issues' if he thinks thats ok to do that fast and missed your language. Red flags galore! LOL At least he showed them quickly so you avoided a not right guy for you. You'll get there on your voice.  Eh, one person's "too fast" is another person's "too slow" in many things...contact, sex, moving in together, marriage. None of us would be on this forum if we weren't all on both sides of that, so...judge not lest ye be judged Even my AP friends would not be ok with a guy all over them the first date like that... He was pushy, this behavior is not normal for a first date no matter what attachment we have. This is not a one persons slow or fast, this guy is off... Its a first date! LOL He doesnt even know her yet he was touching her... Creepy.
I persoannly dont know anyone that would be ok with that... We can agree to disagree, he was way out of line.
I also disagree with this... I think we owe each other respect and value as human beings, regardless of what we have done
No we dont, respect is earned. That guy was totally disrespectful...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 1:23:16 GMT
respect is asking permission to touch me.
"would you like a hug?"
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Post by leavethelighton on Nov 15, 2018 2:11:28 GMT
Well let's put it this way-- in my younger days, I found it so hard to ask for what I wanted that it didn't even OCCUR to me to think about asking for what I wanted, or that I could, or that it was an option. Not so much in romance since I was generally single, but just in life in general. I did not have healthy interdependence or an understanding that it could be a good thing to actually be someone who asked for help or what she wanted, until later in my 30s.
I remember when I was almost 18 and in my first romantic experience, it hit me like a ton of bricks that the romantic communication I always thought would be so easy (because in my thousands of fantasy it was easy) would in real life be really HARD... So, yes, I can understand where you're coming from.
But that is such an important part of growing up and our life journeys-- working to ask for what one wants and be assertive about what doesn't want. I consider myself quite the feminist, and it's still not easy. It's a lifelong thing to keep working on...
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