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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 16:27:17 GMT
OP posted a first date experience that was upsetting to her and caused her to feel violated. the issue was a stranger excessively touching her body in somewhat intimate ways without her consent. she felt unable to voice a boundary. she is trying to find her voice to support her values as to what is appropriate for her. i applaud her. Go faithopelove , honor your feelings and your dignity and safety and find your voice. ❤️ |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 18:12:19 GMT
Great insights there epicgum ! I saw a statement today that said that ostracism is THE most painful thing to experience (ref Richard Grannon / Sam Vaknin). I have experienced this (as well as serious life threats / actual harm) - and as black sheep will know, it is incredibly painful / debilitating. You haven't taken it too far - not for me. And there are homeless people are are actually decent human beings... Women are socialised to be pursued, to not be dominant or aggressive ... yet we take a risk walking down an alleyway - it's all a game. Rockgirl and epicgum thank you both so much, such great in sight from both your contributions to this site. I too have felt very ostracized as the black sheep and that feeling left me full of shame and less than. My mother's favourite line was " I don't know where the hell we got you from". It always left me feeling like a freak and "what is so wrong with me. It has made me feel I mustn't be authentic because I'm just not good enough. - there is nothing 'wrong' with you. Removing your mother's cruel conditioning is your way forward - using authentic anger (in safe ways) to release it from you and replacing the bad conditioning with good conditioning / the truth (you are a worthy, valuable, good enough, lovable person) and self love, plus learning to trust and express your own feelings / authentic self. It's not about being perfect (APs often strive to be perfect), but just good enough. And remember, if you have survived ostracism - you really are stronger than most! Hugs x |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 18:26:43 GMT
I'm off this forum, you're a very overbearing person. and PS. you have a right to disagree but you have no right to be passive aggressive towards others and then pretend an angel hey- you jumped my shit and you were wrong in your own assumptions, let it go. do what you want in terms of leaving the forum, it's your business. Sometimes it is a shame there is no moderator on this forum. @christie - I hope you come back. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 19:02:18 GMT
Rockgirl and epicgum thank you both so much, such great in sight from both your contributions to this site. I too have felt very ostracized as the black sheep and that feeling left me full of shame and less than. My mother's favourite line was " I don't know where the hell we got you from". It always left me feeling like a freak and "what is so wrong with me. It has made me feel I mustn't be authentic because I'm just not good enough. - there is nothing 'wrong' with you. Removing your mother's cruel conditioning is your way forward - using authentic anger (in safe ways) to release it from you and replacing the bad conditioning with good conditioning / the truth (you are a worthy, valuable, good enough, lovable person) and self love, plus learning to trust and express your own feelings / authentic self. It's not about being perfect (APs often strive to be perfect), but just good enough. And remember, if you have survived ostracism - you really are stronger than most! Hugs x Thank you rock girl. I do generally like people and always try to see the Good in most. I think I am authentic with my general love of people, but desperately need to find a comfortable way that doesn't fill me with fear to set some protective boundaries for my own well being. Can you please share what authentic anger looks like. Is it what epic was expressing in a previous post. Thanks again for your reply and hugs x |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 19:40:39 GMT
OP posted a first date experience that was upsetting to her and caused her to feel violated. the issue was a stranger excessively touching her body in somewhat intimate ways without her consent. she felt unable to voice a boundary. she is trying to find her voice to support her values as to what is appropriate for her. i applaud her. Go faithopelove , honor your feelings and your dignity and safety and find your voice. ❤️ |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 20:16:01 GMT
Helsbells - there is nothing 'wrong' with you. Removing your mother's cruel conditioning is your way forward - using authentic anger (in safe ways) to release it from you and replacing the bad conditioning with good conditioning / the truth (you are a worthy, valuable, good enough, lovable person) and self love, plus learning to trust and express your own feelings / authentic self. It's not about being perfect (APs often strive to be perfect), but just good enough. And remember, if you have survived ostracism - you really are stronger than most! Hugs x Thank you rock girl. I do generally like people and always try to see the Good in most. I think I am authentic with my general love of people, but desperately need to find a comfortable way that doesn't fill me with fear to set some protective boundaries for my own well being. Can you please share what authentic anger looks like. Is it what epic was expressing in a previous post. Thanks again for your reply and hugs x Yes, totally get the seeing good in others / love. Authentic anger - APs often don't even recognise anger, because they have buried it so deep in order to please others. Whilst some change when they cannot tolerate the amount of stuff that comes their way (because off their niceness / being exploited, etc), if you can learn to recognise what is wrong and what is not in terms of how someone treats you, that is a start. For example, if you had an experience where someone did something not nice to you, the lack of boundaries probably meant that you didn't protect or respect yourself / maybe you froze. So, write out that scenario, what happened to you, how you reacted or didn't, how you felt at the time and afterwards (it can be scribbled really fast). Then, imagine that same scenario or similar happening to someone you really care about, even a pet. How would you feel about the person doing that to them. If it is just hurt, then the anger is buried - there should be some anger if here has been a violation. Imagine you are bigger / more powerful than the person doing that to to the one you care about and what you would say to them, really let loose and imagine verbally laying into them - but just imagine - so that you are protecting the hurt one and see how that feels. This is all just imagining and on paper, NOT directly at anyone. Write this all out, if you can - it can be destroyed right afterwards but writing it out gets it out of you as well as putting it into perspective. Next, imagine that other one you care about is now you - respond to the violator the way you did to protect the one you care about. See how that feels to stand up for yourself. Now, if you can feel that anger - do not direct it at anyone / thing - release it in some healthy way (pillow bashing in private, shouting out while driving on motorway, kickboxing, Boxercise) - something that physically uses and burns up that anger, whilst thinking specifically about the person that hurt you. Doing this doesn't make you angrier - it releases the anger healthily, helps you to process the feelings and express yourself. Then, with time and more understanding, you start to learn to stand up for yourself more. Anger at another only provokes / fuels the fire - but it is healthy to express it and you are entitled / allowed to express yourself, even if some don't like it / don't like you changing. I will look up Epic's comments... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 21:03:45 GMT
Its ok that the topic steps sideways as introduced by epic I think. It's all still about finding our voice.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 15, 2018 21:14:40 GMT
OP posted a first date experience that was upsetting to her and caused her to feel violated. the issue was a stranger excessively touching her body in somewhat intimate ways without her consent. she felt unable to voice a boundary. she is trying to find her voice to support her values as to what is appropriate for her. i applaud her. Go faithopelove , honor your feelings and your dignity and safety and find your voice. ❤️ Thank you, Juni! ❤️🌺 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 21:23:41 GMT
Its ok that the topic steps sideways as introduced by epic I think. It's all still about finding our voice. you bet, it happens all the time. it's ok to bring it back to the OP also  |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 15, 2018 21:24:41 GMT
I think that some of the responses to Epicgum here are a bit over-reactive and not actually understanding what was said. I think I get what you're saying, epicgum - from an AP POV - is that just because a male oversteps the mark, it's not always fair to label them. They too could be trying to find their way. Obviously this is only when the overstepping is minor and doesn't mean that all over-stepping should be excused. I have been on the receiving end of some seriously bad treatment by men and I can still say this. The clue is in the reference to brain scans and the motivation to do these things. And the respect thing - I used to think like that Epicgum, but not now. That is the AP trap. And, BTW, if you have to ask everyone if it is OK to hug them before you do so, that would seem a bit odd and is not really healthy, as it is a natural human thing (if not for certain people / circumstances) and the ability to read another's willingness to accept / reciprocate is also quite natural when Secure. Let’s not make this about the AP trap. His overstepping my physical boundary had nothing to do with attachment styles. Of course if a friend or acquaintance hugged me they would not have to ask permission or even when he hugged me initially I was OK with it. That’s obviously ridiculous to suggest a person can’t hug anyone and not comparable to this situation. It was the ensuing groping that I was not OK with. I’m not sure why I need to explain this?!! There is no overreacting in that. First date. stranger. Groping. Keep it in context |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 15, 2018 21:34:21 GMT
i'm totally being sarcastic. i'm in agreement with the women who find unwanted touch inappropriate. i'm not in agreement with the minimizing of it. read the thread; it's in there. You're using sarcasm to be passive aggressive towards others. You assumed what he meant, asked for no explanations. The fact that someone wants to show you a different perspective, it doesn't mean they suddenly support sexual harassment. I, at least, understood it differently. Maybe I misunderstood him too. I don't know. But I think he was focusing on a more intuitive, bigger picture. He's against dehumanization of a person (and if you dehumanize someone it's as low a human being can get, there's nothing good about it and in history it led to awful actions, I think one should strive to avoid it). As for OP's, I agree she shouldn't be touched that way if she wasn't feeling comfortable with it but all we know is that she didn't say she was (moreover the only time she rejected it "he tried to kissed me and I turned my head away.., " he understood it's unwanted and ask her to confirm" .and he said I guess I’m too affectionate for you? " and she denied- "I just said, oh, no" and jumped into my car. ) Once again, I don't think it is ok, I'm also pretty much aware that some people FREEZE in such situation, but don't you think that guy might have thought they're on the same page? He clearly wanted a hook up so sexual behavior isn't something shocking if he thought she's receptive. Is it ok to judge him as a disgusting creep? In such case I don't think epicgum should be attacked for point this out. And FWIW, I had a friend (female) who once was offended by a guy who wanted to take it slow even though she was throwing herself at him on the first date. Later she ruled he must be gay. Now, 1) she's less likely be judged as disgusting because she is a she, even if the guy was uncomfortable with it (maybe we should assume that no guy would be uncomfortable with it?) 2) as epicgum said "one person's "too fast" is another person's "too slow" in many things" even though both the OP's guy was too fast, and my friend was too fast- they would have been perfect for each other. You can say "but she would be ok with that, her boundaries are untouched" - the thing is, he might (OR MIGHT NOT) have thought that with OP- once again, boundaries weren't communicated Since you’re referencing me, I’ll interject...It’s totally reasonable that I judged him as a disgusting and repulsive creep! My body language was apparent- I turned my head away in the end, in the car I used my pocketbook as a barrier and at other times I removed my hand from him or pushed his hand away. So although I did not use words to express myself verbally, I was more than clear with my body language and that’s why he questioned me at the end. The guy was obviously just looking to hook up and when he saw he didn’t get anywhere with me, he was done. That was the only thing I agreed with, as I was done too. As far as expectations I already declined his invitation for our first date to be at his place, and instead insisted that we go out. The fact I suggested meeting in public should have told him that I wasn’t just looking for casual hook up that night...either way, when you push someone’s hand away AND turn away AND use objects as barriers, I think you have to be an ignorant idiot not to get the picture!!! And that I find repulsive!! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 21:38:19 GMT
You're using sarcasm to be passive aggressive towards others. You assumed what he meant, asked for no explanations. The fact that someone wants to show you a different perspective, it doesn't mean they suddenly support sexual harassment. I, at least, understood it differently. Maybe I misunderstood him too. I don't know. But I think he was focusing on a more intuitive, bigger picture. He's against dehumanization of a person (and if you dehumanize someone it's as low a human being can get, there's nothing good about it and in history it led to awful actions, I think one should strive to avoid it). As for OP's, I agree she shouldn't be touched that way if she wasn't feeling comfortable with it but all we know is that she didn't say she was (moreover the only time she rejected it "he tried to kissed me and I turned my head away.., " he understood it's unwanted and ask her to confirm" .and he said I guess I’m too affectionate for you? " and she denied- "I just said, oh, no" and jumped into my car. ) Once again, I don't think it is ok, I'm also pretty much aware that some people FREEZE in such situation, but don't you think that guy might have thought they're on the same page? He clearly wanted a hook up so sexual behavior isn't something shocking if he thought she's receptive. Is it ok to judge him as a disgusting creep? In such case I don't think epicgum should be attacked for point this out. And FWIW, I had a friend (female) who once was offended by a guy who wanted to take it slow even though she was throwing herself at him on the first date. Later she ruled he must be gay. Now, 1) she's less likely be judged as disgusting because she is a she, even if the guy was uncomfortable with it (maybe we should assume that no guy would be uncomfortable with it?) 2) as epicgum said "one person's "too fast" is another person's "too slow" in many things" even though both the OP's guy was too fast, and my friend was too fast- they would have been perfect for each other. You can say "but she would be ok with that, her boundaries are untouched" - the thing is, he might (OR MIGHT NOT) have thought that with OP- once again, boundaries weren't communicated Since you’re referencing me, I’ll interject...It’s totally reasonable that I judged him as a disgusting and repulsive creep! My body language was apparent- I turned my head away in the end, in the car I used my pocketbook as a barrier and at other times I removed my hand from him or pushed his hand away. So although I did not use words to express myself verbally, I was more than clear with my body language and that’s why he questioned me at the end. The guy was obviously just looking to hook up and when he saw he didn’t get anywhere with me, he was done. That was the only thing I agreed with, as I was done too. As far as expectations I already declined his invitation for our first date to be at his place, and instead insisted that we go out. The fact I suggested meeting in public should have told him that I wasn’t just looking for casual hook up that night...either way, when you push someone’s hand away AND turn away AND use objects as barriers, I think you have to be an ignorant idiot not to get the picture!!! And that I find repulsive!! @faithhopelove - respectfully, I think that you are confusing responses to other points, as both myself and @christie were defending epicgum, who had responded with his view of your post...not defending the person who upset you. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 15, 2018 21:39:45 GMT
i'm totally being sarcastic. i'm in agreement with the women who find unwanted touch inappropriate. i'm not in agreement with the minimizing of it. read the thread; it's in there. You're using sarcasm to be passive aggressive towards others. You assumed what he meant, asked for no explanations. The fact that someone wants to show you a different perspective, it doesn't mean they suddenly support sexual harassment. I, at least, understood it differently. Maybe I misunderstood him too. I don't know. But I think he was focusing on a more intuitive, bigger picture. He's against dehumanization of a person (and if you dehumanize someone it's as low a human being can get, there's nothing good about it and in history it led to awful actions, I think one should strive to avoid it). As for OP's, I agree she shouldn't be touched that way if she wasn't feeling comfortable with it but all we know is that she didn't say she was (moreover the only time she rejected it "he tried to kissed me and I turned my head away.., " he understood it's unwanted and ask her to confirm" .and he said I guess I’m too affectionate for you? " and she denied- "I just said, oh, no" and jumped into my car. ) Once again, I don't think it is ok, I'm also pretty much aware that some people FREEZE in such situation, but don't you think that guy might have thought they're on the same page? He clearly wanted a hook up so sexual behavior isn't something shocking if he thought she's receptive. Is it ok to judge him as a disgusting creep? In such case I don't think epicgum should be attacked for point this out. And FWIW, I had a friend (female) who once was offended by a guy who wanted to take it slow even though she was throwing herself at him on the first date. Later she ruled he must be gay. Now, 1) she's less likely be judged as disgusting because she is a she, even if the guy was uncomfortable with it (maybe we should assume that no guy would be uncomfortable with it?) 2) as epicgum said "one person's "too fast" is another person's "too slow" in many things" even though both the OP's guy was too fast, and my friend was too fast- they would have been perfect for each other. You can say "but she would be ok with that, her boundaries are untouched" - the thing is, he might (OR MIGHT NOT) have thought that with OP- once again, boundaries weren't communicated Juniper is using sarcasm in her response bc your remarks are ridiculous and cannot be addressed seriously with common sense intact...it’s just too laughable. That’s the truth. No sarcasm there |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 21:40:59 GMT
I think that some of the responses to Epicgum here are a bit over-reactive and not actually understanding what was said. I think I get what you're saying, epicgum - from an AP POV - is that just because a male oversteps the mark, it's not always fair to label them. They too could be trying to find their way. Obviously this is only when the overstepping is minor and doesn't mean that all over-stepping should be excused. I have been on the receiving end of some seriously bad treatment by men and I can still say this. The clue is in the reference to brain scans and the motivation to do these things. And the respect thing - I used to think like that Epicgum, but not now. That is the AP trap. And, BTW, if you have to ask everyone if it is OK to hug them before you do so, that would seem a bit odd and is not really healthy, as it is a natural human thing (if not for certain people / circumstances) and the ability to read another's willingness to accept / reciprocate is also quite natural when Secure. Let’s not make this about the AP trap. His overstepping my physical boundary had nothing to do with attachment styles. Of course if a friend or acquaintance hugged me they would not have to ask permission or even when he hugged me initially I was OK with it. That’s obviously ridiculous to suggest a person can’t hug anyone and not comparable to this situation. It was the ensuing groping that I was not OK with. I’m not sure why I need to explain this?!! There is no overreacting in that. First date. stranger. Groping. Keep it in context I am sorry that you feel my comment was ridiculous - a bit of a strong comment, but it was written in the context of what was being commented on, which itself had led from someone's view of their experience in relation to your OP. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 15, 2018 21:41:22 GMT
Since you’re referencing me, I’ll interject...It’s totally reasonable that I judged him as a disgusting and repulsive creep! My body language was apparent- I turned my head away in the end, in the car I used my pocketbook as a barrier and at other times I removed my hand from him or pushed his hand away. So although I did not use words to express myself verbally, I was more than clear with my body language and that’s why he questioned me at the end. The guy was obviously just looking to hook up and when he saw he didn’t get anywhere with me, he was done. That was the only thing I agreed with, as I was done too. As far as expectations I already declined his invitation for our first date to be at his place, and instead insisted that we go out. The fact I suggested meeting in public should have told him that I wasn’t just looking for casual hook up that night...either way, when you push someone’s hand away AND turn away AND use objects as barriers, I think you have to be an ignorant idiot not to get the picture!!! And that I find repulsive!! @faithhopelove - respectfully, I think that you are confusing responses to other points, as both myself and @christie were defending epicgum, who had responded with his view of your post...not defending the person who upset you. It definitely seems that way to me, and as far as you saying I didn’t communicate a boundary...doesn’t give one a stranger a right to put theirs hands all over me. |
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