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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 23:30:01 GMT
I searched the forum for codependency and I think we've briefly talked about it in some posts, but I thought that this construct was quite helpful in focusing on the emotional aspect of APness, rather than the anxiety and the need to be reaching out.
This is my experience and understanding of my own situation. It is more that there is an emptiness of self without another, and thus, it is often nice to be coupled in relationships. When with a secure (even if incompatible), the emptiness doesn't feel so big. but when a DA deactivates, this emptiness is magnified through contrast effects as when the DA-AP first got together, the fullness is really strong. That's how I felt with my DA when we first found each other, I felt full and complete, more than I've ever been with anyone else. But when he deactivated, oh my, the fullness was gone and what is left behind felt so empty and pale in comparison, that the emptiness of self was felt really strongly. I wanted to be in his life and I wanted him to want me and/or need me, so that my position is secure and the relationship is rooted firmly. this want is particularly triggered by his distancing behaviors i.e., not willing to affirm his interest/commitment when discussing future, hiding things from me, repeating that rships are choices and we can always walk away, that being too close to me will hurt, etc etc. it might be possible that codependency is the root of the problem, and when AP is triggered, it just spirals out of control and I go cray cray.
This codependency came from my mum who I think is a codependent, and does not like/support my independence. everything I do successfully is attributed to how great of a mother she is and I have to behave like the perfect daughter so that she can receive praise from others. when i started to really bring my adult self into the relationship, oh she did not like it, putting me down ever so slightly, telling me that my work is insignificant and trivial, not working with me on business decisions (i was helping her do stuff), telling me those decisions are not important and not worth her time (but I was spending all my time on it). i gave up and turned avoidant with her, and then left for another continent for my own work. recently, she has been insisting repeatedly to visit me (even though she has visited twice in the past 6 months) and when i said no, i was ignored and the same questions were asked again and again. It was not till i explicitly called her out on it, by saying I do not know why she is insisting despite my refusal, and why she wouldn't take no for an answer. I said I love her and I am not abandoning her, but I need to have my own space and do my work.
Communication is hard. During this time, I had to tell exDA why I don't trust him (which then ultimately led to the breakup), but both things (him and mum) were happening at the same time. it was a struggle between choosing them and myself, because speaking up and drawing boundaries are already difficult enough since I don't have those skills, but I know that doing so WILL break the relationships somehow. But in both these relationships, i felt like I was not full and real, and I was only the supporting cast, there to prop them and their lives up, rather than being a partner in building our own little world together. exDA always stressed individualism and that he saw me as a person, but at the end of the day, that was not the feeling I had. The feeling I had was more of a... be strong and good, so that you don't cause me problems. so that I can see you happy by yourself, and I can take some of that happiness energy and fulfil my needs. be independent so that you don't need me and I don't have to think/bother about you. be good and act good, don't act out, because I can't be fucked to deal with you and your weaknesses. stay in your lane and play your role perfectly, so that I don't have to deal with the extra burden of having you in my life. that is the feeling - the same feeling as a codependent is trained to be: be good and live up to my expectations.
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 8, 2018 18:14:30 GMT
I searched the forum for codependency and I think we've briefly talked about it in some posts, but I thought that this construct was quite helpful in focusing on the emotional aspect of APness, rather than the anxiety and the need to be reaching out. This is my experience and understanding of my own situation. It is more that there is an emptiness of self without another, and thus, it is often nice to be coupled in relationships. When with a secure (even if incompatible), the emptiness doesn't feel so big. but when a DA deactivates, this emptiness is magnified through contrast effects as when the DA-AP first got together, the fullness is really strong. That's how I felt with my DA when we first found each other, I felt full and complete, more than I've ever been with anyone else. But when he deactivated, oh my, the fullness was gone and what is left behind felt so empty and pale in comparison, that the emptiness of self was felt really strongly. I wanted to be in his life and I wanted him to want me and/or need me, so that my position is secure and the relationship is rooted firmly. this want is particularly triggered by his distancing behaviors i.e., not willing to affirm his interest/commitment when discussing future, hiding things from me, repeating that rships are choices and we can always walk away, that being too close to me will hurt, etc etc. it might be possible that codependency is the root of the problem, and when AP is triggered, it just spirals out of control and I go cray cray. This codependency came from my mum who I think is a codependent, and does not like/support my independence. everything I do successfully is attributed to how great of a mother she is and I have to behave like the perfect daughter so that she can receive praise from others. when i started to really bring my adult self into the relationship, oh she did not like it, putting me down ever so slightly, telling me that my work is insignificant and trivial, not working with me on business decisions (i was helping her do stuff), telling me those decisions are not important and not worth her time (but I was spending all my time on it). i gave up and turned avoidant with her, and then left for another continent for my own work. recently, she has been insisting repeatedly to visit me (even though she has visited twice in the past 6 months) and when i said no, i was ignored and the same questions were asked again and again. It was not till i explicitly called her out on it, by saying I do not know why she is insisting despite my refusal, and why she wouldn't take no for an answer. I said I love her and I am not abandoning her, but I need to have my own space and do my work. Communication is hard. During this time, I had to tell exDA why I don't trust him (which then ultimately led to the breakup), but both things (him and mum) were happening at the same time. it was a struggle between choosing them and myself, because speaking up and drawing boundaries are already difficult enough since I don't have those skills, but I know that doing so WILL break the relationships somehow. But in both these relationships, i felt like I was not full and real, and I was only the supporting cast, there to prop them and their lives up, rather than being a partner in building our own little world together. exDA always stressed individualism and that he saw me as a person, but at the end of the day, that was not the feeling I had. The feeling I had was more of a... be strong and good, so that you don't cause me problems. so that I can see you happy by yourself, and I can take some of that happiness energy and fulfil my needs. be independent so that you don't need me and I don't have to think/bother about you. be good and act good, don't act out, because I can't be fucked to deal with you and your weaknesses. stay in your lane and play your role perfectly, so that I don't have to deal with the extra burden of having you in my life. that is the feeling - the same feeling as a codependent is trained to be: be good and live up to my expectations. I can relate- my ex DA and I had the best relationship I ever had...until he distanced and left. I too felt like I had to be perfect bc as soon as I voiced my needs or preferences, it would seem to rock his world. He would see it as neediness and drama and after a few conflicts- he left. I was shattered and also felt so empty bc at the onset he was so loving and attentive- all my AP anxiety was triggered. I had to be perfect also- I couldn’t be real bc real was too much for him to handle. It reminded him too much of a relationship. In the end I was on egg shells, knowing he was shutting down and about to leave. I was raised in a household where I walked on egg shells every single day and it became the same situation of needing to be that perfect little girl again. A year later, he’ll see me casually but that is all. He stays alone. This way he doesn’t have to consider my needs and it’s only about him. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2018 22:59:20 GMT
I searched the forum for codependency and I think we've briefly talked about it in some posts, but I thought that this construct was quite helpful in focusing on the emotional aspect of APness, rather than the anxiety and the need to be reaching out. This is my experience and understanding of my own situation. It is more that there is an emptiness of self without another, and thus, it is often nice to be coupled in relationships. When with a secure (even if incompatible), the emptiness doesn't feel so big. but when a DA deactivates, this emptiness is magnified through contrast effects as when the DA-AP first got together, the fullness is really strong. That's how I felt with my DA when we first found each other, I felt full and complete, more than I've ever been with anyone else. But when he deactivated, oh my, the fullness was gone and what is left behind felt so empty and pale in comparison, that the emptiness of self was felt really strongly. I wanted to be in his life and I wanted him to want me and/or need me, so that my position is secure and the relationship is rooted firmly. this want is particularly triggered by his distancing behaviors i.e., not willing to affirm his interest/commitment when discussing future, hiding things from me, repeating that rships are choices and we can always walk away, that being too close to me will hurt, etc etc. it might be possible that codependency is the root of the problem, and when AP is triggered, it just spirals out of control and I go cray cray. This codependency came from my mum who I think is a codependent, and does not like/support my independence. everything I do successfully is attributed to how great of a mother she is and I have to behave like the perfect daughter so that she can receive praise from others. when i started to really bring my adult self into the relationship, oh she did not like it, putting me down ever so slightly, telling me that my work is insignificant and trivial, not working with me on business decisions (i was helping her do stuff), telling me those decisions are not important and not worth her time (but I was spending all my time on it). i gave up and turned avoidant with her, and then left for another continent for my own work. recently, she has been insisting repeatedly to visit me (even though she has visited twice in the past 6 months) and when i said no, i was ignored and the same questions were asked again and again. It was not till i explicitly called her out on it, by saying I do not know why she is insisting despite my refusal, and why she wouldn't take no for an answer. I said I love her and I am not abandoning her, but I need to have my own space and do my work. Communication is hard. During this time, I had to tell exDA why I don't trust him (which then ultimately led to the breakup), but both things (him and mum) were happening at the same time. it was a struggle between choosing them and myself, because speaking up and drawing boundaries are already difficult enough since I don't have those skills, but I know that doing so WILL break the relationships somehow. But in both these relationships, i felt like I was not full and real, and I was only the supporting cast, there to prop them and their lives up, rather than being a partner in building our own little world together. exDA always stressed individualism and that he saw me as a person, but at the end of the day, that was not the feeling I had. The feeling I had was more of a... be strong and good, so that you don't cause me problems. so that I can see you happy by yourself, and I can take some of that happiness energy and fulfil my needs. be independent so that you don't need me and I don't have to think/bother about you. be good and act good, don't act out, because I can't be fucked to deal with you and your weaknesses. stay in your lane and play your role perfectly, so that I don't have to deal with the extra burden of having you in my life. that is the feeling - the same feeling as a codependent is trained to be: be good and live up to my expectations. I can relate- my ex DA and I had the best relationship I ever had...until he distanced and left. I too felt like I had to be perfect bc as soon as I voiced my needs or preferences, it would seem to rock his world. He would see it as neediness and drama and after a few conflicts- he left. I was shattered and also felt so empty bc at the onset he was so loving and attentive- all my AP anxiety was triggered. I had to be perfect also- I couldn’t be real bc real was too much for him to handle. It reminded him too much of a relationship. In the end I was on egg shells, knowing he was shutting down and about to leave. I was raised in a household where I walked on egg shells every single day and it became the same situation of needing to be that perfect little girl again. A year later, he’ll see me casually but that is all. He stays alone. This way he doesn’t have to consider my needs and it’s only about him. Yessss. That said I did create drama I suppose, because I wasn’t able to communicate my needs or preferences in a way that seemed to be effective, and over time it just spiralled out of control as I got more and more frustrated and scared and hurt when every communication just didn’t seem to work. He would try to fix the problem without ever sharing his story or feelings and I would end up feeling manipulated and unheard. Anne’s latest post on dependence and needs was really good! I moved from needs to neediness and then it just never recovered from that. These days I swing between I could have/should have done/known better and omg he’s also has a role to play in this drama that he should take responsibility for. |
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Post by tinyrobotman on Dec 9, 2018 19:50:49 GMT
Dec 7, 2018 23:30:01 GMT shiningstar said: The feeling I had was more of a... be strong and good, so that you don't cause me problems. so that I can see you happy by yourself, and I can take some of that happiness energy and fulfil my needs. be independent so that you don't need me and I don't have to think/bother about you. be good and act good, don't act out, because I can't be fucked to deal with you and your weaknesses. stay in your lane and play your role perfectly, so that I don't have to deal with the extra burden of having you in my life. that is the feeling - the same feeling as a codependent is trained to be: be good and live up to my expectations. Wow this really hit home, thanks for sharing this shiningstar. It made me think about the people pleasing / low self worth piece of my puzzle. The minute I would leave my lane as you say my DA would lash out and then distance. We put up with DA's using us to fill their needs (even though they'll claim they don't have any) and not reciprocating because deep down we don't think we deserve better. We give and give in hopes of that unconditional love will be returned but in a way both the DA and AP are both only allowing for conditional love. DA: If you loved me you wouldn't ask anything of me/ AP: you will love me if if I'm good enough to fix you. I think maybe that when one finally leaves the codependent mind set of being there for others at our own expense behind one will leave behind these toxic DA-AP relationships? It certainly seems like a big part of becoming healthy in love. |
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 10, 2018 4:30:37 GMT
I can relate- my ex DA and I had the best relationship I ever had...until he distanced and left. I too felt like I had to be perfect bc as soon as I voiced my needs or preferences, it would seem to rock his world. He would see it as neediness and drama and after a few conflicts- he left. I was shattered and also felt so empty bc at the onset he was so loving and attentive- all my AP anxiety was triggered. I had to be perfect also- I couldn’t be real bc real was too much for him to handle. It reminded him too much of a relationship. In the end I was on egg shells, knowing he was shutting down and about to leave. I was raised in a household where I walked on egg shells every single day and it became the same situation of needing to be that perfect little girl again. A year later, he’ll see me casually but that is all. He stays alone. This way he doesn’t have to consider my needs and it’s only about him. Yessss. That said I did create drama I suppose, because I wasn’t able to communicate my needs or preferences in a way that seemed to be effective, and over time it just spiralled out of control as I got more and more frustrated and scared and hurt when every communication just didn’t seem to work. He would try to fix the problem without ever sharing his story or feelings and I would end up feeling manipulated and unheard. Anne’s latest post on dependence and needs was really good! I moved from needs to neediness and then it just never recovered from that. These days I swing between I could have/should have done/known better and omg he’s also has a role to play in this drama that he should take responsibility for. Yes, in hindsight there were 3-4 incidences where I let my anxiety get the best of me...this was before I knew about DA/AP; however, most partners in a relationship would’ve recovered from those minor conflicts, learned from them and moved on without a break. We’ve been seeing each other a year now since the break up and although I know he has feelings for me, he has his heart on lock down. He admitted this summer he has a hard time trusting and feels incapable of being in a relationship. He said he feels like there’s something wrong with him but he doesn’t know what it is...unfortunately, if I mention that he should talk to someone, he completely dismisses it. And the little tidbits he shares are far and few between and he doesn’t want to discuss. He kind of just “informs”’ me. Makes it tough, to say the least. I’ve managed to keep my anxiety pretty well in check the past 9 months even with his deactivating. I’ve def learned a lot! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 4:58:08 GMT
Dec 7, 2018 23:30:01 GMT shiningstar said: The feeling I had was more of a... be strong and good, so that you don't cause me problems. so that I can see you happy by yourself, and I can take some of that happiness energy and fulfil my needs. be independent so that you don't need me and I don't have to think/bother about you. be good and act good, don't act out, because I can't be fucked to deal with you and your weaknesses. stay in your lane and play your role perfectly, so that I don't have to deal with the extra burden of having you in my life. that is the feeling - the same feeling as a codependent is trained to be: be good and live up to my expectations. Wow this really hit home, thanks for sharing this shiningstar. It made me think about the people pleasing / low self worth piece of my puzzle. The minute I would leave my lane as you say my DA would lash out and then distance. We put up with DA's using us to fill their needs (even though they'll claim they don't have any) and not reciprocating because deep down we don't think we deserve better. We give and give in hopes of that unconditional love will be returned but in a way both the DA and AP are both only allowing for conditional love. DA: If you loved me you wouldn't ask anything of me/ AP: you will love me if if I'm good enough to fix you. I think maybe that when one finally leaves the codependent mind set of being there for others at our own expense behind one will leave behind these toxic DA-AP relationships? It certainly seems like a big part of becoming healthy in love. I just want to put this out there, in the event that it resonates with others as well. I read this somewhere and it really hit home for me: "Help that wasn't asked for is not help, it is a form of power play".
this is exactly what I see in my rships with DAs. that the help i want to extend to them is really about me trying to fix things so that I can be useful and important, so that I have a "value" in the relationship, so that I am useful and valuable, so that I have contribution and bring something to the table -- and all these is motivated by a belief/fear that if i didn't do something useful/productive/valuable for the other person, they have very little reason to be with me. Just the other day, a colleague (clearly and explicitly DA - he self-identified) asked me if i was attending a staff meeting. Instead of replying him honestly that I wasn't sure and I wasn't really thinking of going, I immediately offered to go with him for support because i (and everyone else in the dept) knew that he needed to do more in terms of engagement and involvement since he didn't get promoted because of a lack of presence. Clearly, that did not go down well because his response was rather clipped. he said that he wasn't asking for that and he just wanted to know if I wasn't going so that he could justify not going himself. shortly after this, I saw this quote, and I thought that it was a really good reminder and rule to live by. don't offer help if it wasn't asked for - I offered it because it's what I would do for any of my friends, and I would appreciate if someone took the initiative to offer it to me because I would be too shy/embarrassed to ask for it, but it might come across as overbearing or overstepping boundaries for some other people. I did ask myself why did I offer him help, and why did I even assume that he was asking me for help, but that's another story to be told. |
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