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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 2, 2019 11:32:45 GMT
I have been able to have some really good dialogues with my FA (just dating). He is aware that his behavior has made him loose a lot of great women, and he think it is because he is no good to talk about feelings. He says his biggest fear is a relationship to end, as is hurts too much, and he don't want to experience that again. So he keeps me at an arm's length. But he is always polite and kind. I am mostly secure, very preoccupied though, with this one, but not very anxious. I have made him understand my need for knowing if and when we are going to meet the next time – this is a long distance non-relationship  I have made him aware of his intimacy issues and how the anxious-avoidant trap comes into play in relationships in general, that it is a very classical situation (so he don't have to think there is anything wrong with him). He says that I really understand him and that I am very patient. I think we are on a healthy path, as I see progress for the both of us, moving against secure, although very slow. He is a leader type and a very masculine man. As his trust in me has increased, he has also been able to be very vulnerable with me, which is a combo I find irresistible. However, I feel there is a thin line between bringing up attachment issues and at the same time not threaten his masculinity. I don't want him to feel small, week, ashamed or controlled. So I make sure show him my respect, admiration, and tell him I think he is hot, smart, a good Man and so on. But I can sense his shame and insecurity, and I also need his masculinity to feel more attracted and feminine. So I guess my question is how to make a man feel like a real man while talking about vulnerable stuff. Input from avoidant men would be appreciated. PS: If you like to read my whole story it is in the thread FA reluctant of meeting in person (20 year long love story). |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 14:51:04 GMT
Hi, as an avoidant female I understand some of what you're saying here, but I don't understand what you mean by wanting to make him feel masculine in these discussions. He is masculine, and has expressed vulnerability, so I would just say let that be. My advice would be to not direct attachment discussions toward him and keep it to your own perspective of yourself. He can relate and share as he wishes, and disclose what he cares to, according to his own comfort level and level of introspection.
I would think that making any extra effort in terms of validating masculinity which is already apparent would make the situation seem like it involves some kind of weakness. I've never once considered vulnerable attachment discussions with my very masculine partner to be related to feelings of weakness. It's been more like simple discovery. Neither of us is FA so maybe that's why? Everybody is different. But regardless- I don't see a need to buttress his masculinity. Just be yourself and let him be his natural self and don't bring weakness into the equation. You can offer resources for him to peruse on his own without being engaged directly with you about it, and leave it be, that would seem reasonable to me. If he's got thoughts about it he can share. If you try to move things along with his awareness then you're working with an agenda.
I may not have understood quite what you're getting at, but that's what came to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 15:10:06 GMT
Also, I feel very strongly that people here diagnosing their partners should actually leave that to them. You've had the privilege of diagnosing yourselves, and everyone else should be left to the same autonomy and self-discovery. There is no way to take the test for someone else. There is no way to know what a persons internal processes are unless they have told you explicitly. It's possible to pass along a test and related information, sharing what's been valuable to you in your own process, and leave it at that.
What a terrible mistake it would be to assume you know someone else and what drives them, and be wrong. How alienating would that be? I think it happens a lot around these boards.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 2, 2019 15:29:17 GMT
I agree with inmourning- share what you learned about attachment from your perspective and how it’s helped you personally.
I see sharing and vulnerability as a strength- not a weakness, so I see no need to bolster his masculinity.
Also, if you don’t want him to view you as controlling, then be careful not to push your own agenda. It can be difficult to resist pushing in the push/pull dynamic, but try to be aware and resist taking part. It will only drive him away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 15:41:58 GMT
People here can say "He says I understand him." That can be true to a point. But also there is a lot of confusion here, and unless you've shared with him to the extent you have here and he's aligned with all of it, assumptions are being made all around.
There is a lot of nuance to attachment, and individuals . It is overlooked. How often have we seen someone here saying "He's scared." and then thetc finally hear "Actually, I never wanted a deep relationship, I didn't want to have that kind of connection, I have a lot going on or whatever, I was casual with you and I thought you agreed to that?"
We all have to stay in our own lanes in our relationships, otherwise there is a lot of room for fantasy, illusion, misinterpretations, and heartache.
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Post by mrob on Nov 3, 2019 1:55:36 GMT
Jumping in as a man here.
Masculinity. This is 2019, not 1959. The world has changed so dramatically in the last 30 years that I’m not sure “masculinity” exists. Certainly not in its previous form. If not threatening his masculinity means tip toeing and pandering to his ego, “masculinity” is worth nothing.
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Post by serenity on Nov 3, 2019 4:01:12 GMT
PTSD symptoms often get associated with masculinity in post war societies. But its really just a mental health issue IMO. Culturally the definition of masculinity can vary widely. As an example, my Step Dad is Greek and very masculine, wealthy, and successful in business. Men in his family profusely kiss and cry at family functions (even if the last function was a week ago), dance like ballerinas at weddings, treat women like the boss, have expressive emotional outbursts with flailing arms that make PMS look like nonchalant behaviour, hug and kiss other men, and display a lot of affection to the point of smothering towards children. They will kick your ass if you mess with their family or friends though. My Dad is a judo black belt. And that's just just a description of the macho ones  Man that reminds me how stinky some greek cheeses are. My little bros and i used to literally run and hide when our uncles would come in for the kisses when we visited. |
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Post by iz42 on Nov 3, 2019 5:38:26 GMT
Jumping in as a man here. Masculinity. This is 2019, not 1959. The world has changed so dramatically in the last 30 years that I’m not sure “masculinity” exists. Certainly not in its previous form. If not threatening his masculinity means tip toeing and pandering to his ego, “masculinity” is worth nothing. Right -- I think it's problematic to assume that "real men" can't (or won't) show vulnerability. There is lots to unpack in this question, but it did strike me that OP is describing very traditional gender roles that I personally find to be outdated. Also, if you have to work so hard to build up his ego you might actually be dealing with a narcissist. |
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Post by mrob on Nov 3, 2019 6:47:53 GMT
I think the last point is probably the exception rather than the rule iz42. I grew up a bit differently to most men I know. Single mum, housing commission and very, very little contact with men until my teenage years. Then work in a male dominated field. Wasn’t that an eye opener. I drank to fortify myself and to fit in. That didn’t work! Lol. Now, I’m sort of glad now that I dodged the really full on gender roles that don’t fit Western society, particularly the new world anymore. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 3, 2019 18:26:59 GMT
Thank you guys for your perspectives. Maybe I am just seeing a problem where there isn't one... I am not even sure why I started this thread in the first place... Maybe it is because I associate avoidant men in general with the traditional masculine definition. Like my father, not showing much feelings or handling intimacy very well. Typical male for his generation. FA's can develop a "false persona", so I have read. The FA I date has told me that while he appears to have high self-confidence, at the inside he do not have it at all. I see this "false persona" in connection with the "mask of masculinity" that Lewis Howes talks about: youtu.be/Oa4mLvfXSVw Even if it is 2019, men can get stuck in this tradtional role, as it seems. And maybe what I am trying to say is that if he is feeling too much "emotional talk" will attack his masculinity (mask), I am afraid he will run. But really, maybe I just analyze and complicate things too much. And that I need to take a time off this forum and just relax and let things flow organically |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2019 23:22:39 GMT
The only thing you need to do is learn how to be your feminine self - be comfortable, kind, honest, and responsible with emotional vulnerability, yours and others (not just his). When others see that you are comfortable with and take responsibility for your own emotional ongoings, he is free to do as well, through having the space to and/or the model to learn from. Being feminine is not about being emotional and allowing others to "help" you by comforting you, being feminine is being embracing and kind when you have your own problems without outsourcing them to someone else. So when you do that, he has the space to be masculine HIMSELF; it is not your job to help him be masculine.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 3, 2019 23:40:03 GMT
I read this post differently.
What stood out to me was, "I also need his masculinity to feel more attracted and feminine."
That sounds like projected concern that if he continues to be increasingly vulnerable with you, there will be a tipping point where you won't feel he's masculine enough, however you choose to define it, and you are afraid you will lose attraction. Why is this something you need so badly? Why can't he just be himself, and whoever that person is in regards to traditional gender roles is okay? He needs to take responsibility for his own issues and stop keeping distant in relationships because he's afraid of past pain. That is on him. But, unless he's directly told you otherwise, it's not a gender role thing unless you make it one.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 0:03:19 GMT
Honestly, in a situation where a woman admits to being attracted to risk rather than stability, and a man is as unavailable as he, you don't have to make problems up. They already exist, and are likely a part of the attraction. This could go on indefinitely just as it is, and has gone on for years. It actually may be one of those very stable (in that it never ends) unstable situations.
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 4, 2019 0:22:33 GMT
I read this post differently. What stood out to me was, "I also need his masculinity to feel more attracted and feminine." That sounds like projected concern that if he continues to be increasingly vulnerable with you, there will be a tipping point where you won't feel he's masculine enough, however you choose to define it, and you are afraid you will lose attraction. Why is this something you need so badly? Why can't he just be himself, and whoever that person is in regards to traditional gender roles is okay? He needs to take responsibility for his own issues and stop keeping distant in relationships because he's afraid of past pain. That is on him. But, unless he's directly told you otherwise, it's not a gender role thing unless you make it one. Sorry, I did not mean that his vulnerabiliy is unattractive. (On the contrary I said I think masculinity and vulnerability is a irresistible combination). I refer more to me taking the lead in this "realtionship". As I am the most ongoing, and doing all of the initiating for us to meet in person. And I really would like him to initiate more, as I have told him. (This point was from my other thread and not related to vulnerability, but I can see how it can be interpreted, oops). It would be better for my self-respect (and femininity) if he could initiate more. Regarding gender roles, he has been making statements like: - "I am a man, you know, I couldn't do that" - "This is a typical woman's thing to do" - Stating that there is more drama with female coworkers (I agree) - Referring to his mother's nagging making it sound like this is what he is used to from female's behavoir (when I claim I am not like that, he agreees) Hmm... this was a messy thread. Maybe I am just a bit confused right now. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 4, 2019 0:25:51 GMT
Honestly, in a situation where a woman admits to being attracted to risk rather than stability, and a man is as unavailable as he, you don't have to make problems up. They already exist, and are likely a part of the attraction. This could go on indefinitely just as it is, and has gone on for years. It actually may be one of those very stable (in that it never ends) unstable situations. Lol, you are perfectly right. 5 days till our date. I will try to meet up with a problem-free attitude, just enjoing the moment and what we have for now. |
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