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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 30, 2019 9:02:27 GMT
I learned about emotionally unavailable men and how that state was a reason that they wouldn't commit.
Then I learned, through this forum, that you cannot make a man become available, unless he is ready to make the change himself (with or without a therapist). He has to be motivated and it is going to be hard work over time.
What strikes me now is that I have thought that when he finally commits, he must have become emotionally available. But that doesn't have to be the case. Maybe he commits to be in a relationship with you, because he is afraid to lose you? Could that be the case?
It freaks me out being in a committed relationship with a man before he was ready for it, and just afterwards see that he could not really be there for you even if you were together.
You've got what said you wanted: a commitment, but you didn't get what you most of all needed: affection, support, closeness, touch, sex, intimacy (worst case scenario). You two are an official couple now, but in reality you are on your own.
Thinking about this, I would prefer awaiting getting the commitment to see some real changes.
I guess if he has severe issues he will never be 100 % available to you (maybe none of us is 100 % anyway). But I think seing him doing several things outside his comfort zone in the effort of getting close should be prioritized before getting a commitment.
Any input?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 11:11:04 GMT
Is your question what is the priority before looking for a commitment with someone who seems unavailable? To me, if he is not available in the first place (to a reasonable degree), then there is NO question about a commitment - I'm not interested in it. I think that commitment is a natural outcome of sharing and accepting each's other's availability. I think a key question then is how much availability are you willing to accept from the other and give to the other, and how much patience are you willing to provide while someone works to increase that availability (and/or yourself). If this person has severe issues and is working hard to increase his own availability, that's a case that needs to be judged by whether I am ok with his current availability, not based on his potential availability. if he's doing things to get close to me, without working on himself, i would not hang too much weight on it, not because i don't appreciate it, but because i've come to learnt that doing that without fundamentally understanding the self means that these actions do not stick as one will come to see it as "work" and "effort" and "a burden".
true commitment is not simply agreeing to be in a relationship with me. For me now, it is a combination of deciding to be in a relationship with me for his own sake (i.e., he wants to do it for himself as a positive thing that ADDS to his life, not because he's afraid to lose me), formally and publicly acknowledging it, and the willingness and ability to provide intimacy (affection, sexual, psychological, spiritual), support, authenticity, etc etc (you decide for yourself what you want), and then sticking to this decision when things get tough. When a person decides for their own sake that this relationship is something they want to conduct as a voluntary ongoing effort with no foreseeable end, they will willingly provide these "resources" as best as they could, and then expressing this willingness to you with no uncertainty. If so, commitment comes as a natural outcome of availability, and the desire to share with you that availability in an intimate fashion.
perhaps you mean this differently, but reading this phrase literally "doing several things outside his comfort zone in the effort of getting close" will give me pause. what are these things? why are they out of his comfort zone? what is his comfort zone? why is he doing these things? what does getting close mean? So many questions!!
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Post by Helsbells on Nov 30, 2019 12:32:10 GMT
I learned about emotionally unavailable men and how that state was a reason that they wouldn't commit. Then I learned, through this forum, that you cannot make a man become available, unless he is ready to make the change himself (with or without a therapist). He has to be motivated and it is going to be hard work over time. What strikes me now is that I have thought that when he finally commits, he must have become emotionally available. But that doesn't have to be the case. Maybe he commits to be in a relationship with you, because he is afraid to lose you? Could that be the case? It freaks me out being in a committed relationship with a man before he was ready for it, and just afterwards see that he could not really be there for you even if you were together. You've got what said you wanted: a commitment, but you didn't get what you most of all needed: affection, support, closeness, touch, sex, intimacy (worst case scenario). You two are an official couple now, but in reality you are on your own. Thinking about this, I would prefer awaiting getting the commitment to see some real changes. I guess if he has severe issues he will never be 100 % available to you (maybe none of us is 100 % anyway). But I think seing him doing several things outside his comfort zone in the effort of getting close should be prioritized before getting a commitment. Any input? This really struck a cord with me. I am in a "committed relationship", with an avoidant man who lives in my house. Unlike when I was married my husband and I pooled all our money together and shared almost everything. We renovated the house together had very similar interests we liked to share and very intimate. My avoidant partner who lives with me calls it paying rent it, just covers his living cost and he keeps hold of his motor home, " I think this helps him with the one foot out of the door he has always had. He shows some affection, gives me support, certain amount of closeness, very little touch, no sex and no intimacy. I have accepted him and love him for who he is and hope in time the closeness will continue to grow. If am being totally honest I am in this relationship now and I fell in love with this individual. If it ends and I cant help thinking it probably will I would not get involved with someone with this attachment style as I just dont know how sustainable it is. I have had therapy and worked on my insecurities and feel more emotionally secure in myself. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 30, 2019 16:26:55 GMT
Is your question what is the priority before looking for a commitment with someone who seems unavailable? Thank you for a great answer! My question was about the order of things taking place in the dating phase, as you start to know the person you are dating. It seems like many of us (women?) would like to get into a committed relationship as soon as possible. Even if we eventually discover that they are unavailable – because we have fallen in love with this guy. It is almost like it becomes just more of a challenge and we do what we can to get him (before we learn to back off of unavailable guys in the first place). I realize that when we come to find that he is unavailable we should be more concerned about if he seems to be willing to make himself available, and not until THEN consider to commit to him. I didn't mean to discuss my special case in this thread actually, more in general. But in my case it has been mostly me trying to make a progress. He feels uncomfortable and anxious/avoidant both with physical closeness, and when we talk too much about relationship stuff. I can recognize he get in fight/flight mode (slightly irritated or says he feels like wanting to run). He can also get into what I think is freeze mode. Like when I try to touch his hand, it doesn't move, it is almost like the hand is dead. He still keeps talking, but seems disconnected from his body somehow. This particular thing I have not mentioned for him, but I think I will point it out to him the next time it happens. He says that he is best at a distance, he is shy, that touching feels unfamiliar to him, and that he needs to practice. Now I have stepped back and made it clear that it is up to him now. I have told him that if he is interested in having a relationship eventually, he has to gradually come out of his armor. He needs to be brave and take actions that he is not comfortable with. Like initiating meetings and practice more closeness. Showing me with actions that he really wants to be with me. And not just to be in his comfort zone, that is texting me, which is easiest and feels most safe to him. |
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Post by anne12 on Nov 30, 2019 16:43:13 GMT
For men in general it takes 1-2 years to fully commit.
There is also the impact of the bonding hormone oxytocin.
Testotorene in men makes oxytocin less "effektive" , while estrogen in women increases the level of oxytocin.
If the man is young or if he is very maskuline, then his got more testorone. (Less in an older man or a more "feminine " man.)
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 30, 2019 16:58:37 GMT
For men in general it takes 1-2 years to fully commit. There is also the impact of the bonding hormone oxytocin. Testotorene in men makes oxytocin less "effektive" , while estrogen in women increases the level of oxytocin. If the man is young or if he is very maskuline, then his got more testorone. (Less in an older man or a more "feminine " man.) Interesting. And to release oxytocin you have to touch each other physically, right? So that with long distance or few in-person meetings, it will take some time? |
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Post by anne12 on Nov 30, 2019 17:07:34 GMT
Yes you normally have to touch, kiss, have sex (expecially women produces oxytocin when they are kissed and touched on the breasts and nippels). Sounds like you need a lot of patience But when you as a women hit Meno pause you produce less estrogyn and then you become less affected by oxytocin ... You can read more about the 7 normal lovephases and the impact of oxytocin ect in the dating thread in the general forum. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1927/dating-tips-attatchment-styles-phases |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 30, 2019 17:19:08 GMT
Then avoiding physical touch can be an unconscious act to stop being influenced of oxytocin, because that will bring them closer to a relationship that the unavailable isn't ready for?
I can be patient and practice closeness with him if he decides that this is something he wants to try.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 30, 2019 19:05:42 GMT
It seems like many of us (women?) would like to get into a committed relationship as soon as possible. Even if we eventually discover that they are unavailable – because we have fallen in love with this guy. It is almost like it becomes just more of a challenge and we do what we can to get him (before we learn to back off of unavailable guys in the first place). I realize that when we come to find that he is unavailable we should be more concerned about if he seems to be willing to make himself available, and not until THEN consider to commit to him. This isn't a woman thing. This is an insecure attachment thing, and more likely to be an AP or FA thing. I don't want to jump into commitment anymore, but I definitely used to because I thought that's what's normal and what women do. Now I want to get to know someone, their disposition, character, and compatibility first (over a couple months, not moving at complete turtle pace, since I'm too old to have that much time). If I can't trust them to be consistent, I don't over-invest before they treat it like a real relationship anymore. I see this as, I could fall in love with that person, but why would I? If they're not available, then they don't even want me to do that and I'm setting us both up for pain. Especially myself. It's not that I don't want to fall in love, but I really dug into learning what my priorities and relationship goals are, and believing that I am good enough to deserve to accomplish them. If someone isn't on the same page after we've gotten some time to know each other, then we're incompatible. If they have issues to work out, they'll have to do it themselves anyway, like I ultimately had to with my AP. Maybe one day they'll do that, but my sticking around if working through their own issues for themselves isn't already a big priority for them won't change that. And I've fully been through sticking around over and over and over, it never changed the dynamic with someone who is at best ambivalent about commitment. I should have broken up with my FA ex on the spot years ago for saying he knew "what he was giving up" being in a committed relationship with me. His tone was so... well, distancing. And we'd been in one probably 7 months already, and he was extremely happy most of the time up to that point. Boy, did I feel like an imposition and get triggered when he said that, because 1. I was a good gf 2. He'd wanted to "commit" 3. I don't see romantic relationships that way at ALL or I wouldn't want to be in them. I, of course, being unaware, thought I love him and better keep trying even harder. It got worse and worse from there. But years later, he still misses me as a person, wants my attention, and still can't say and has never said he loves me. We've clearly not been together since I really learned about and understood attachment theory. Because it's just unhappy cycling to stay in that dynamic, and he has clearly stated he's not doing any work or changing. "Love", in regards to feeling in romantic love always even when it's a complete sacrifice of all your other needs, isn't a goal that will make you happy. It's more an addiction than foundation-building. It's a feeling, a strong feeling, but shouldn't be a compulsion to validate jumping into and staying in a largely unfulfilling relationship with someone not actually present for you (assuming you want an available partner). |
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Post by anne12 on Nov 30, 2019 20:03:50 GMT
Then avoiding physical touch can be an unconscious act to stop being influenced of oxytocin, because that will bring them closer to a relationship that the unavailable isn't ready for? I can be patient and practice closeness with him if he decides that this is something he wants to try. When I write about the masculine and the feminine and oxytocin I am.only refering to the difference in men and woman without all the attatchment stuff on top of it. The feminine wants to connect and commit earlier than the masculine. Men 1-2 years in, women about 2-3/4 months in. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 30, 2019 20:34:26 GMT
This article is interesting: Why Dating Emotionally Unavailable Men Is Just Like Rescuing Dogs (lol) It suggests that you do not initiate anything yourself, just be open and let him approach you at every level in his own pace. This is what will make him feel safe. After being the one of us trying to get progression, even while being patient and giving him a lot of space, this is the solution I have landed on myself too. Now it finally feels natural to let him come to me if and when he is ready. |
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Post by anne12 on Nov 30, 2019 21:20:01 GMT
If the person got avoidant attatchmentstyle you properly have to initiate contact once in a while, otherwise the avoidant can forget about you and the relationship.
Its different if the person has got some desorganised attatchment style. (You can look in the healing desorganised thread and the dating thread)
Remember that the ambivalent also can be unavailable.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 30, 2019 21:54:01 GMT
bohemianraspberry, this thread and the article seem very "other" (partner) focused. I'm not sure if you're looking for advice or just back and forth discussion, or if you want validation about what you can try to "do" to keep an unavailable partner around. But in this response, I'm going to start with an attempt to give advice that refocuses the discussion on self not other... because I do believe it is true that wrestling with these questions around an unavailable partner who isn't also all in and asking similar questions reflects some unavailability in one's self. Then I'll get to some considerations in trying to keep an unavailable person around, if that's what someone wants. What's in this for you? Does waiting around meet your needs and goals? Do you want and are you still able to have a family with biological children one day? If so, does "waiting" need to be an exclusive process or can you get to know other people who may be more available as well? I know you love this man, but having other experiences (even if you're ultimately emotionally unavailable to others who aren't this man) will help you learn more about what you want and other dating dynamics that exist. I don't suggest exploring other options if you're officially in a committed situation, but it doesn't sound like you are. If you have the time to wait and that's what you want to do, then that's perfectly okay. There's value in taking responsibility for making the decision to do that, as long as it's not a knee-jerk response to assuming you're helpless and can't take responsibility in a situation once you've fallen in love. Just plugging a reminder here that love and behavior is a choice, though, and you can choose to respond to the situation in a way that takes your needs into account equally to his. As someone who was insecurely attached for most of my life, I didn't understand what love is a choice meant or how important of a concept it was until the last couple of years. I thought it was something out of my control that happened to me (and that it didn't apply to me loving myself), so it would have been helpful for me to hear other perspectives and start thinking about it differently when I was younger. In the spirit of addressing, is doing x, y, and z actions going to create space for my unavailable partner to come to me... it depends. It depends if you're truly okay with the situation as is and earnestly living your life fully in the meantime, versus just trying to do what you think may help bring the partner in if you're patient enough. It also depends on where the partner is in the process. If the partner is all in on his or her own changes, then yes, patience could possibly pay off. But does that mean it's fair to you to be waiting? Depends on how much equal commitment there truly is on both sides. What you may want to consider about the question of missing you etc. is... sure, the partner cares about you. And maybe isn't capable of commitment due to dysfunctional attachment and nervous system issues, but still wants human connection. What tactics did that partner learn as a kid about keeping those s/he cares about around without getting too close? For example, did the partner learn that acting distant could be excused by buying gifts? Or by giving empty verbal apologies? Do these behaviors keep you around with ambiguity and hope while nothing ever changes afterwards? Is the unavailable partner really making moves towards building a stable relationship foundation, or is it just an (unconscious) exercise in keeping you on a string while they live their lives as they always have? Did they watch adults who couldn't truly connect do the same thing while they were growing up, or did they struggle with parents who couldn't connect with them so the child only learned surface level attachment and connections? It's a lot of questions. That's why I think the answer lies within figuring out what do you honestly want out of a relationship first. It makes deciding what to do in the face of all these questions much clearer.
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 30, 2019 22:44:28 GMT
alexandra , thank you for the thorough answer - food for thought! I started this tread just wanting to discuss the concept of emotionally unavailability in general. Because I can understand anxiousness and I can understand avoidance. But this kind of unavailability and discomfort in being close is new to me, I have not experienced it with anyone before. I am almost 50 years old and have not planned to get any more kids  I am willing to wait for him to come around. Now I can see that I have been too intense, and actually didn't give him time to initiate meetings and physical touch, at a slower pace. What I want out of this? We both think we fit together, and maybe it could work out (even if when he is triggered he reminds me that he like being single, and other mixed messages). We have common values, like respect, honesty, integrity. We are at the same place in life. We have a similar background and some shared interests. We laugh a lot and we can talk for hours. But mostly I like him because how he makes me feel, and he is the best kisser ever! I like a lot of freedom and space myself, that's why I think I can get along with an avoidant. I focus on myself and I have recently registered at a dating site, lurking around, being open to other fish in the sea. anne12 , yes I will initiate contact as much as him, but will leave it up to him to initiate closeness.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 3:05:33 GMT
Oh geez, I clicked on the article. That is such an asinine article. It's a strong opinion but I hold it without apologies. The article does nothing to validate or affirm a healthy, secure individual's autonomy, boundaries, healthy emotional needs. It promotes catering to insecurity as if that will decrease insecurity. Maybe it will promote a push pull dynamic- but humans are more complex than dogs and being a lifeless decoy isn't where it's at if you want a mature, mutually beneficial and reciprocal relationship.
Having a "partner" who is completely catering to avoidance or emotional unavailability, being voiceless and needless and waiting around like a chair is not what it takes to overcome a disorganized attachment style, or any insecure attachment style, or emotional unavailability, however you want to label it. It takes individual, focused work on awareness and new strategies for coping and becoming emotionally healthy. A dog just needs to know you will feed it, give it affection, and not beat it. A human needs to be able to articulate feelings, express needs, and be able to coordinate a lifestyle on mutual terms (as in- you don't just tell the emotionally unavailable person when it's time to eat or go for a potty break. We are talking adult choices that have to be made in consideration of a partnership.) The dog thing just is too stupid to continue discussing.
( I mention disorganized attachment above because the author compares emotionally unavailable to abused dogs. Abuse=trauma=instinctive protective responses. Humans are not dogs although we share some instinctive responses. The comparison is offensive to me, but I won't go into that further, it's just too um, dehumanizing to get into it much.)
And, emotionally available can be ambivalent, disorganized, or (dismissive) avoidant. I have committed while emotionally unavailable and completely unaware of the fact. I committed for practical reasons as that was exactly what was modeled for me. I didn't rush to commitment for emotional reasons. There was no oxytocin or bonding involved, although I didn't realize that at the time because I was completely unaware. It was a functional marriage. I thought it was the same as other people's relationships. It wasn't. And- neither of us was emotionally available. I say that with absolute certainty.
The advice in the article is absolutely terrible if it's directed toward an emotionally unavailable DA. To not contact or provide any feedback or bids would mean, goodbye. We tend to make a half hearted effort and give up easily. The pattern response is withdrawal, because of a resignation to not being seen or met. Ignore me, and you'll never see me.
Anyway, ugh about this idea. It seems like manipulation... do this... to get that. Don't do that.... to get this. Not what healthy people do.
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I am willing to wait for him to come around. Now I can see that I have been too intense, and actually didn't give him time to initiate meetings and physical touch, at a slower pace.