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Post by dhali on Apr 1, 2020 20:30:56 GMT
I’m not sure what the petty thing is, but from the sounds of it, it’s fishing for likes on social media, with a specific target in mind, potentially triggering you jealous? That’s what I was able to divine anyhow. If that’s the case, I don’t think it’s petty. You’re asking someone to show up as an adult, and is playing childish games. And that’s ok, we all get lost sometimes. No one is perfect, and we all want to act out at times. We are human. But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable after you are empathized with on it. The main issue with this for an avoidant is empathy isn’t a strong suit.
Anyhow, whatever the issue is, I see a lot of self-flagellation, which doesn’t usually lead to long term change. Self compassion does. The AP’s root issue is self esteem. That’s very fixable. Btw, everyone, and I mean everyone, has insecurities. If someone belittles yours, or doesn’t care to plug into them practicing empathy, I can’t see how it would ever be a healthy bond.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 2, 2020 12:40:12 GMT
I’m not sure what the petty thing is, but from the sounds of it, it’s fishing for likes on social media, with a specific target in mind, potentially triggering you jealous? That’s what I was able to divine anyhow. If that’s the case, I don’t think it’s petty. You’re asking someone to show up as an adult, and is playing childish games. And that’s ok, we all get lost sometimes. No one is perfect, and we all want to act out at times. We are human. But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable after you are empathized with on it. The main issue with this for an avoidant is empathy isn’t a strong suit. Anyhow, whatever the issue is, I see a lot of self-flagellation, which doesn’t usually lead to long term change. Self compassion does. The AP’s root issue is self esteem. That’s very fixable. Btw, everyone, and I mean everyone, has insecurities. If someone belittles yours, or doesn’t care to plug into them practicing empathy, I can’t see how it would ever be a healthy bond. Thanks, I appreciate that. Well, yeh, maybe fishing for her likes on his page or her attention, he liked two posts from this hot, local girl (who is clearly in "need" of a lot of male attention and posts photos that seem to request it). He's liked a couple of her photos before, all of herself. This one especially bothered me because in her caption it said something like "missing everyone, snuggled up for quarantine." I've never talked to him about it or anything similar. The closest would be when we talked about being exclusive and we'd tell each other if we wanted to date/sleep with anyone else, like if either of us changed our mind. I don't think I can approach the topic. I feel weird, creepy, controlling — I don't know, just weird. I'm even embarrassed to post what it was here. But it is triggering because of my self-esteem issues... I guess that's it, unless I'm self-sabotaging or it's more of a disrespect thing. It seems like most people I've asked about this (secure people) say just to ignore it and work on my self-esteem. It can also be a “trust” issue....can I trust that a like is just a like and nothing more. Caroline, I went through the exact same thing....right down to the whole “this is petty, why am I doing this”.....but deep down, it wasn’t just me blowing something up....it was keying me into something that was missing....”trust”. Now, my situation was different...because for all his “I love you” statements....he really had no intention of making his time with me long term. So...I could have saved myself a lot of heartache had I simply trusted myself enough to go “deeper” and find out what was really going on....why it bothered me....and then to have actually discussed it with him. The other side of the AP equation is that we are super keyed into change....even ones we deem as frivolous or petty....your AP is telling you something about your needs and in it’s own way....pointing out where those needs are not being met....whether from you or from others. Be kind to yourself right now....things are topsy turvy due to this virus. Every single time you have one of these moments...treat yourself to something kind....like a bubble bath or a special treat. My therapist tells me that every single time I berate myself or downplay an AP reaction, I am simply repeating a pattern that was shown to me by my parents. Change that pattern, trust yourself, love yourself, go deeper....hugs. |
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Post by dhali on Apr 2, 2020 21:01:37 GMT
OK, got it. I agree, it's a bit petty. But I also get it. As for the self confidence, here's how it shows up in this case. For example - I would never have any clue what it is my girlfriends are doing on social media. It's just not something I've ever concerned myself with. Well, if they post something, I'll pay attention. But I don't go snooping around as to what they are doing on other people's content. I may stumble upon it, but whatever. I just have to trust whatever it is they are doing. Trust comes from confidence. How so? Well, it should be pretty implicit that if you do something you're not supposed to do in a relationship (cheating, lying, ongoing emotional unavailability), breaking trust, it's over. Goodbye. No turning back. You show people how to treat you, and if you lack confidence, they walk all over you and your lack of boundaries get trampled on. To me this is all part of the dance.m A securely attached person wouldn't care what their SO was doing, until they needed to care. And if they needed to care, then it needs to be addressed then and there. To mutual satisfaction.
I'd focus on the self compassion side of where your lack of trust comes from. It's not something to be ashamed of. I'd suggest the opposite, and bear hug the shit out of it. Be comfortable with this being who you are, and how it's a product of everything you've experienced in your life. And btw, all of that it A-OK. Get to be on friendly terms with all of it. Your post carries a lot of shame from my perspective.
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Post by dhali on Apr 6, 2020 21:29:41 GMT
I’d approach every relationship as assuming the best until proven otherwise. Or your 6th sense is screaming. Otherwise, nothing is different unless they say so.
And if you get fucked, don’t turn back. They lost their shot.
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Post by serenity on Apr 7, 2020 6:06:00 GMT
Hi Caroline!
I guess I just wanted to chime in and send some good wishes and thoughts your way. I hope you are feeling a little better today! I read your other post about the ex lover he's been bonding with over discussions about his new dog, so I kind of wanted to offer you some thoughts about the situation overall.
Being the perceptive person you are, and also dealing with hypervigilence, my impression is that the signs of "distancing" that you are picking up on are real, rather than petty things made up in your head. It doesn't mean he'll cheat or end the relationship, but I feel you're seeing a real and subtle shift in the relationship, likely because of calling him out on his unreliable communication. This is very typical avoidant behaviour, where he's stepped up and given you more consistency in the form of better communication. But now he's offsetting it somewhat, creating distance in other areas. Him preferring to bond with people outside of the relationship, when he could be bonding with you, is a classic distancing strategy, which likely hurts mainly because you aren't getting enough bonding with him right now, though you've seen improvements. The fact that he's chosen women like the hot social media babe you don't know, and an ex lover, introduces relationship insecurity, which is also a classic avoidant distancing strategy (even if it doesn't lead to infidelity). I think overall, if an avoidant partner is showing these signs of creating distance, it can help to back off a bit and see if he calms down (as opposed to chasing him for more intimacy).
I do really believe some avoidant distancing strategies are harmful to partners, so its wise to make up your own mind what is unacceptable for you personally. A man doesn't have to cheat to make you feel insecure, devalued and neglected through his interactions with other women or people. And you are entitled to have boundaries and try to negotiate what you really want.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 7, 2020 15:54:44 GMT
Hi Caroline! I guess I just wanted to chime in and send some good wishes and thoughts your way. I hope you are feeling a little better today! I read your other post about the ex lover he's been bonding with over discussions about his new dog, so I kind of wanted to offer you some thoughts about the situation overall. Being the perceptive person you are, and also dealing with hypervigilence, my impression is that the signs of "distancing" that you are picking up on are real, rather than petty things made up in your head. It doesn't mean he'll cheat or end the relationship, but I feel you're seeing a real and subtle shift in the relationship, likely because of calling him out on his unreliable communication. This is very typical avoidant behaviour, where he's stepped up and given you more consistency in the form of better communication. But now he's offsetting it somewhat, creating distance in other areas. Him preferring to bond with people outside of the relationship, when he could be bonding with you, is a classic distancing strategy, which likely hurts mainly because you aren't getting enough bonding with him right now, though you've seen improvements. The fact that he's chosen women like the hot social media babe you don't know, and an ex lover, introduces relationship insecurity, which is also a classic avoidant distancing strategy (even if it doesn't lead to infidelity). I think overall, if an avoidant partner is showing these signs of creating distance, it can help to back off a bit and see if he calms down (as opposed to chasing him for more intimacy). I do really believe some avoidant distancing strategies are harmful to partners, so its wise to make up your own mind what is unacceptable for you personally. A man doesn't have to cheat to make you feel insecure, devalued and neglected through his interactions with other women or people. And you are entitled to have boundaries and try to negotiate what you really want. I agree...I used to downplay the insecurity I experienced because it seemed to me that a secure would not experience such “petty” concerns.....but I do think that your insecurity is being legitimately activated..and this is the time to be you own advocate versus get stuck in shame. It occurred to me the other day when my cat got really scared about some construction work on the roof of my condo...that part of a parent’s role is to acknowledge the feelings of his/her child as valid. Not to berate it, deny it, get annoyed by it....which is something I don’t believe my mom or dad did. My feelings were unacceptable and I felt that repulsion and internalized that my feelings were not ok....that the insecurities I felt were issues that I needed to overcome. As such, I became way more in tune to the feelings of everyone else and in a sense....berated my own legitimate feelings. Feelings are feelings and we all have them...insecurity to me is now just a signal that something is off and I need to get to the root of what is missing and be my own best advocate. You do so much to understand and accommodate him....how is he doing the same for you? |
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Post by serenity on Apr 7, 2020 23:03:15 GMT
I understand Caroline <3
I guess the approach I'd take personally is the one you suggested..to give him some time to ajust to this new relationship change, where he communicates more consistently. Also, reward him for it, show gratitude and positive reinforcement because its a very positive change on his end.
When you feel a little baited by his discussions about others or his interactions with other women, perhaps keep taking a small step back (I noticed thats your gut reflex anyway, but there's no need to feel bad about it). Because what he's likely wanting subconsciously is a bit of temporary emotional distance, which could escalate into even more distance if you push for intimacy and assurance during those moments.
Its really hard to directly address subconscious behaviours in others through discussion I've found, especially if they are behaviours that serve to protect and empower them (like distancing strategies). I've seen very defensive and even cruel reactions, and a lot of denial or rejection as a response. So if you decide to go that way, you might be better off making sure its done in a setting where there's a therapist involved to facilitate?. That takes the pressure off you to act like his therapist, and then all you would need to do is convince him somehow to attend. Just my thoughts anyway.
PS. thats great news about finding the more specialized therapist. I really hope they are good!
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Post by annieb on Apr 8, 2020 4:29:42 GMT
You’re super tuned in and researched and I think that’s awesome. But I think all you really need is to really focus on you and how to bring your confidence up. Do a daily self esteem meditation, yoga, reading what have you. Things that you know will work for you. Because that’s the only thing I noticed that is not tended to regularly. And I think a lot of other things will fall into place, once there is a regular self esteem maintenance.
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Post by serenity on Apr 15, 2020 21:03:48 GMT
You’re super tuned in and researched and I think that’s awesome. But I think all you really need is to really focus on you and how to bring your confidence up. Do a daily self esteem meditation, yoga, reading what have you. Things that you know will work for you. Because that’s the only thing I noticed that is not tended to regularly. And I think a lot of other things will fall into place, once there is a regular self esteem maintenance. I totally agree with you. I've noticed — saying this while also knowing weight on other people isn't a thing I really think about but me it's different with myself— whenever I'm up even just a couple of pounds or 10+ especially, everything kind of falls apart. What these pounds equate to is me not tending to my self-care and working on my self-esteem. I feel like I'll do good for a couple of weeks then fall of the wagon again. But I'm trying to keep it up. Exercise is also super key for me to remain clear headed. The beauty trap thing is really hard to resist when you're with someone adverse to closeness. There's so much shaming of women /unrealistic standards put on women from culture, families and society already. And avoidants are prone to attributing their triggers and issues to imperfections in their partner. The important thing to know is when you feel a need to be perfect-looking, you're co-dependently internalising your avoidant's partners "fault finding" issues. You are not responsible for them, they are...and they exist because closeness is like touching a hot-stove for them, so they can instinctually blame their partner (ie fault find), if they are unaware and unaccountable. And even if you were a 20 year old super model, he'd behave exactly the same way....in fact he may get even more insecure and start making a point of idealising women who look like your opposite type. A different race, different hair colour and skin. I'm a tall blonde woman with really nice long hair and had semi decent atheletic features most of my life. Did some modelling when i was younger. And I've experienced all of this "fault finding" when I was in my prime. In fact the fault finding was way worse, the better I looked....I think because it raises abandonment fears from avoidants. My two emotionally available "secure partners" lasting 5 and 15 years, honestly didn't give a hoot about weight gain and makeup or anything like that. They connected to me on an emotional level and loved me as a human being, not an object. They looked at faults and imperfection as a natural part of being human. Caroline, just remember that on an emotional level, looking the way you do probably gives your guy a bit of security. You can lose a ton of weight and spend more time on beauty, but do it for yourself. Most likely he will become more insecure and undermining. |
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Post by serenity on Apr 15, 2020 21:35:03 GMT
I understand Caroline <3 I guess the approach I'd take personally is the one you suggested..to give him some time to ajust to this new relationship change, where he communicates more consistently. Also, reward him for it, show gratitude and positive reinforcement because its a very positive change on his end. When you feel a little baited by his discussions about others or his interactions with other women, perhaps keep taking a small step back (I noticed thats your gut reflex anyway, but there's no need to feel bad about it). Because what he's likely wanting subconsciously is a bit of temporary emotional distance, which could escalate into even more distance if you push for intimacy and assurance during those moments. Its really hard to directly address subconscious behaviours in others through discussion I've found, especially if they are behaviours that serve to protect and empower them (like distancing strategies). I've seen very defensive and even cruel reactions, and a lot of denial or rejection as a response. So if you decide to go that way, you might be better off making sure its done in a setting where there's a therapist involved to facilitate?. That takes the pressure off you to act like his therapist, and then all you would need to do is convince him somehow to attend. Just my thoughts anyway. PS. thats great news about finding the more specialized therapist. I really hope they are good! Thanks serenity ! The new therapist is intense after just two sessions... I'm not sure if I'm quite ready for it, but I hope it'll be good. She seems much more aggressive in terms to dealing with FA which I don't really agree with, but I guess the perspective is interesting. We've also mainly just focused on negative elements that I struggle with — like hanging out — though so we'll see. I do agree the change has been very positive on his end, and I'm trying to reward that in a way — do you have any suggestions of what those "rewards" look like? Thanks for the update Caroline! Thats interesting that your therapist suggests a more aggressive approach. I can kind of see what she means..she wants you to confidently assert boundaries most likely. This is a good idea when you feel strong enough to walk away from the relationship if you continue to have your needs neglected. If you don't feel that strong, then your therapist could perhaps help you get there. "Rewarding" a concessional behaviour like communicating properly can be simply expressing your appreciation, without it leading to over crowding him. If you are going to ever make him feel safe being closer to you, its will be a slow process, so you don't want to overwhelm him with closeness every time he makes a small step. And I don't you do at all. |
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Post by ocarina on Apr 16, 2020 20:39:44 GMT
Reading this with interest - especially serenity s comments regarding weight, self esteem and the beauty ideal. This is such a tricky place to be as a woman - and so sad when feeling loved - which is a human right, is felt to be dependent on external appearance over which we have very little control. What about aging or sickness? In the past few weeks, I have definitely become more attuned to the terrible toxicity of only feeling loveable if you're a b or c - just what an endless and exhausting and overall pointless treadmill that is. Is this rooted in childhood events - or in long term toxic relationships? it's doubly difficult in a relationship with someone else who's patterns feed the insecurity. Hope you're doing ok. |
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Post by iz42 on Apr 17, 2020 6:48:25 GMT
hi caroline1218! I hope you're doing ok in these strange times. I've had many of the same body/weight issues for a long time too. I noticed that when I was dating my FA ex, I obsessed with my weight because it felt like something i could control. I felt like I was never enough for him... not necessarily because of anything he said but because he was so hot & cold. Like serenity suggested, there was something about the intermittent reinforcement and at times feeling like he wasn't fully "in" the relationship that amplified my insecurities. It felt truly logical to me that if I could just be more x he would be more stable and stop pushing me away.
I'm glad you found a new therapist who seems helpful! I'm interested in what this "aggressive" approach looks like.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 17, 2020 12:47:34 GMT
I just wanted to say that the criticism on weight, beauty, and physical matters — and any self matters is ALL on me. FA has never in any way at all made any comments or criticisms and when I'm in person with him, I've always felt the most beautiful than I ever have with any other man. If anything the external validation/etc has been helpful. These issues I mentioned are all in my head / me-driven — that I've had since childhood. I think the question is....have you always felt at this level or is it a bit amplified now. It does not have to tie back to anything he says...it could just be a pattern of how you cope when you feel your needs are not fully met or someone is distancing from you....almost like a slight of hand. Just something to consider. |
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Post by anne12 on Apr 17, 2020 18:03:22 GMT
caro People can project a low self-worth onto their body. Maybe you already know this There are some tips in the "how to love yourself" thread (the last post) in the secure section. Maybe some of the tips can be helpfull.
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Post by serenity on Apr 17, 2020 21:37:46 GMT
Therapist was like "you've given him so many opportunities over the past couple of months to step it up, and it's unacceptable boyfriend behavior, you need to just say "If you can't do this, I'm done" and give him the opportunity to say I want to fix this or let you walk away with your head held high. So there's some truth in her aggressive approach but: a) Now that he's opened up way more, I understand what's been going on and why he wouldn't want to hang out — and it's intense b) I haven't been super, super clear (and said totally sober) about my need to hang out more (like how I was about the communication/not ignoring a text thing - which he's totally fixed) c) I don't think it's wise (or kind) to give such an ultimatum (and one saying I'll walk) a week after someone with known big trauma / PTSD opens up to a whole new level, and when you say "I'm here for you and will be" etc — especially when we can't even technically hang out So yes, I'm not going to bury my own needs because of what's going on with him, but I just don't think an aggressive ultimatum is the right approach — especially when things have drastically improved in other areas. Nor is that my personally. My plan is to say something like "can we go for a walk" (which can be done at proper distance) then talk to him then about how I've been thinking that we missed some good opportunities earlier this year and I don't want to fall back into the same patterns. If he avoids the ask to hang out, then I'll say that over text/phone etc or just wait until quarantine is over... but honestly, I want to say it now so that he can think about it this next bit while the pressure is off. Hi Caroline, Does he understand much about triggers yet, and the way they affect his object constancy and his behaviour towards you? Its really really hard to get your needs met from a partner with C- PTSD until you can speak in that language together. And a lot will reject this deep level of personal honesty and accountability, because of shame wounds. The first FA I dated (fully schizoid) was already in therapy for a long time when we met, and we could just talk about that stuff. His therapist hadn't explained object constancy to him yet, and it was like a lightbulb going off for him when I explained it to him. After that he got a lot better at understanding his moods and shifting mindset about people close to him...became less prone to bad mouthing friends and people generally when they got close. But he'd still blow up like a bomb going off after physical Intimacy, split me black, dump me, instantly look for another woman, cheat, and then come back some time later intensely regretful.(I didn't take him back) . That's about as intense I've experienced engulfment triggers from a loved one, and it felt brutal on my end. We didn't last long as a couple, but we are very close friends years later. After maybe three years of knowing him, he sometimes still gets triggered...its rare now, because of the detachment of friendship. When it happens I give him a wide berth for a couple of weeks or longer, and he comes back to normal. One of the reasons he trusts me so much is he knows that I know why he does it, and that I won't reject him as a friend when he calms down. T, my most recent FA ex , was only a little bit schizoid, not fully blown like the first FA I dated. His cycles were gentler usually, and he didn't cheat, though he'd devalue me after a lot of intimacy (due to slight splitting due to engulfment triggers) and was a little more interested in other attractive women during that time. His first full meltdown/blowup didn't happen until 15 months in, due to giving him a thoughtful birthday present. lol. I guess what I'm trying to say, is sometimes its just better to come out and compassionately say that you feel they have engulfment triggers, and explain how it affects you. And one step further..propose some kind of solution that will make you both happy. This is probably the most fair and honest way to express boundaries with someone like that. They may go into denial and reject you, but its usually temporary because the truth delivered with a lot of love and understanding is a very powerful thing. And very healing. It doesn't mean the romantic relationship will work, but I think its your best bet at forming a healthy connection, whatever that may be. |
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