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Post by lovebunny on Oct 1, 2020 15:21:04 GMT
I know this is a controversial subject, but I need some help sorting myself out. Please note I'm generally AA, sometimes FA, because of benignly neglectful, emotionally immature parents.
When I first came out as bi in my late teens, I fell into polyamory (this was the early 90's, before the word existed.) It seemed like a way I could fulfill both sides of my sexuality, and also a way I thought I could feel loved by multiple people. Throughout my 20's, I was involved in many open relationships, had lots of group sex, was in one "throuple" that lasted almost 2 years. We were young, there were no books or forums for poly folk like there are now, and a couple of those relationships (especially the throuple) were emotional catastrophes. But it definitely taught me some relationship skills, like how to navigate jealousy, radical acceptance and time management.
I lived the poly life until my early 30's, then married a man and settled into monogamy for over a decade, but by the time I was 40, his lack of presence (he was a workaholic drug addict) combined with the attentions of an attractive woman found me back in poly life. In the years just after I finally left my marriage, I figured I was done with monogamy forever, it just didn't worked for me.
My dating life, lots of introspection and self-help, etc., since then has taught me that my actual ideal relationships style is probably "monogam-ish." I'm not sure I'm up for all the hard emotional work and sacrifices involved in making true poly work, but I do like a little sexual openness and panic at the idea of lifelong monogamy. That's not to say I can't be "faithful." My last relationship, she wanted monogamy, I happily accepted, then she dumped me to be with another woman.
I'm now 48, I've been dating a lovely, age-appropriate man for 6 months. Historically, my most passionate (and painful) love affairs have been with women, so I was very surprised to catch serious feelings for him. From the beginning, he claimed his orientation is poly, though he is capable of monogamy. We have so much in common and grew very close throughout Covid lockdown etc.. and officially became boyfriend/girlfriend. Neither of us dated others. He has been nothing but true to his word, passionate, giving, honest, etc.. He's been an amazing boyfriend, and I've been happy and at peace and pretty darned secure.
Now, he's met someone he wants to date. I suppose I knew this day would come, but we're both shocked by the absolute agony I'm experiencing. He promises nothing will change between us. He was a serial monogamist up until a few years ago and doesn't want to do it anymore, he hasn't been divorced as long as I have, for the first time in his life he's fit and feels attractive, blah blah. I get it. I really do. I've been where he is, looking into the eyes of someone I truly cared about, asking for what he's asking.
That's why I feel so stupid. I picked someone who told me they are poly because I knew he'd understand my past, and accept my sexuality (he does,) but then I get triggered when he actually, you know, IS poly. I was really thriving under the focused, consistent attention he was giving me, and of course he promises that won't stop, but I think he's being naive. He isn't very experienced at poly, while I've been there done that. Maybe at this point in my life, it just isn't for me anymore.
I'm not going to ask him not to date others, no way. I like who he is and don't want to change him. He's asking me to trust him. My body is reacting as if this is a breakup, an abandonment, though my head knows it is not. I can either get excited that I'm free to date others, or walk away.
I am already exhausted by all the soul searching I need to do right now.
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Post by anne12 on Oct 1, 2020 16:33:28 GMT
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Post by annieb on Oct 1, 2020 18:46:10 GMT
I think it’s very healthy to feel the way you feel. You have real attachment to this person and the feelings of abandonment are completely valid. I would follow those feelings to guide you. If he doesn’t have as much experience in this I agree that whatever assurance he is giving you is not based on reality. I think you are absolutely correct in perhaps distancing yourself from him.
Take care of your heart, and perhaps you’re monogamous now, and that’s what you need going forward and maybe not with this person, but with someone new.
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Post by serenity on Oct 2, 2020 1:24:17 GMT
Hugs lovebunny. Ouch!! I feel there should have been an "lets consider opening up this relationship" conversation (where each of you is free to say yes or no) well before he announced he found someone. This sounds more like cheating and harem-creation rather than a legit polyamorous move. And notice how its come at the end of the honeymoon period? He comes across as wanting a new high, which leaves you feeling like you've got no legs to stand on.
I'd tell him a firm "no", its too soon. If you feel you could consider it later, say that too. In poly relationships, saying "no" to your partner cheating is perfectly legit. It has to work for both of you.
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Post by lovebunny on Oct 2, 2020 1:30:55 GMT
Ugh, I honestly forgot about covid! And there's me talking about stds.
Today he came over and we talked and cried and talked. I agreed to nothing, except to not just ghost him. I'm inclined to argue back with the messages my anxious attachment sends my body, I'm so rejection sensitive. I'm hoping once the flightorfight settles down I can actually feel my feelings more clearly.
I feel bad for the guy, he was so sure I'd be supportive given my background, and I truly had no idea when we started dating that I would feel this way when the moment came. It was just so easy and comfortable before, and I'm sad that no matter what, the honeymoon is over now. He's so certain he can make it work, maintain balance and presence. And maybe he can. Question is do I care?
My friends are gonna make fun of me when I tell them I wanted monogamy when I was offered freedom. It's never happened before.
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Post by lovebunny on Oct 2, 2020 1:39:48 GMT
Hugs lovebunny. Ouch!! I feel there should have been an "lets consider opening up this relationship" conversation (where each of you is free to say yes or no) well before he announced he found someone. This sounds more like cheating and harem-creation rather than a legit polyamorous move. And notice how its come at the end of the honeymoon period? He comes across as wanting a new high, which leaves you feeling like you've got no legs to stand on. Thanks Serenity, to be fair the arrangement officially was "Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. If you feel like you're interested in someone, tell me." I found out today this is someone he actually knew before me and liked, but "the timing wasn't right" whatever that means. He wasn't actively seeking a new partner for what it's worth. But yes, this comes on the heel of a wonderful 5-day trip we took together to visit some state parks near us, so it feels, literally, like the end of a honeymoon. And I'm triggered because it seems like my relationships never survive the honeymoon. There's always a rupture at month 4-8, I can pretty much count on it. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 2, 2020 2:29:36 GMT
Yeah, wow the timing for him to tell you this was awful  It must have felt so nice taking a vacation together and seeing the parks. So bonding. Can you take a bit of space and think everything through? Be true to yourself; just because you've explored stuff in the past and revealed some of your history to him doesn't mean you're obligated to endure anything that hurts. <3 |
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Post by lovebunny on Oct 2, 2020 13:09:44 GMT
Yeah, that's my plan, clear my head, step back, and really look at the situation.
I really do believe ethical nonmonogamy is ok. It might be just be that it's too soon in the relationship, or it might be just I'm at a place in my life where I don't want to deal with it, or it might be I'm feeling insecure and will get out over it.
How he handles himself right now, I think, will tell me a lot about what I need to know to make my decision.
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Post by maryisback on Oct 15, 2020 20:29:53 GMT
lovebunny, I have done nonmonogamy, poly, swinging, cuckolding, you name it. The one thing I learned is that I am not "one thing" with every person. Each relationship is different and ENM may feel right with one person, but not with another. But one thing is for sure (or it will never work) is that both of you have to be on the same page and REALLY on the same page. There is no "talking the other person into it" or "maybe it will be better with time". It's a decision made by both. If he doesn't respect your "no", he may not be the guy for you.
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Post by lovebunny on Oct 20, 2020 16:02:30 GMT
Thanks maryisback I'm so happy to have someone else with experience in this stuff to bounce things off, please keep reading! I put this post up 20 days ago, here's where I'm at with it right now. I decided to take this new situation for a ride. 7 months together is too early for the next relationship step anyway, which, if we decide to take it, I see as cohabitation, and which we both agree is a very real possibility. I feel like I have several months before I really have to poop or get off the pot, so to speak. This might be a chance for me to grow a lot, even if ultimately one or both of us opt out. "Sunny" and I have been deep in relationship negotiations, making agreements and codes of conduct, also incorporating a fact that I didn't mention earlier; we have a dom/sub sexual element in our relationship. So far these are verbal agreements, but will probably end in a written of course non-legally binding contract. This is something straight/monogamous/vanilla relationships don't normally have to deal with, but I assure you it's common in alternative communities. It's also the 1st time either of us have done this. I like it, it feels very....intentional I now see that he may have been AA in past relationships, and most likely he's flipped FA. In both his marriages, he believes he gave at the expense of his own well-being. Instead of the pursue/panic mode of the usual FA, Sunny invokes his need for a great deal of "me time" or "self-care," which seems to mean basically time away from partners or family members, but casual friends and new lovers who don't demand much don't seem to count. And of course, he is committed to living a ethically-non-monogamous lifestyle so he doesn't feel as if he's missing out on any great opportunities. He doesn't see this as a one-foot-out-the-door strategy, but as a way he can stay happy within a committed relationship. So far, the good things: 1) We've gone deep in our talks with each other. Honesty and vulnerability, check! 2) The man shows up. I've never had him break a promise, or not do what he says he'll do. I have never caught him in a lie or half-truth. I see him doing the work. 3) He does not seem to want to walk away from me, even when I'm not easy. 4) My own Fearful Avoidant tendencies are not triggered because monogamous commitment forever will not be required. 5) It's easier to hang on to my queer identity in a poly hetero relationship The bad: 1) For him, non-monogamy is non-negotiable at this time. I was in the same place 6 years ago after getting out of my marriage. He is, in this matter, putting his own gratification ahead of what's best for "us." Is this even a bad thing? Or just what he needs to do right now to grow as a person? 2) My Anxious avoidant tendencies are triggered just knowing he's got another lover, though on the surface of the relationship nothing has changed. Sure, this presents a great chance to work on myself, but would I be "safer" doing it within a monogamous relationship? 5) What if I met someone, especially a woman, I really like who offered me monogamy? Would I take it? Is this fair to Sunny? The truth is, I seem to get to a point in every relationship where I feel as conflicted as I feel right now. The honeymoon has ended, and now I feel like I want MORE. Nobody ever gives me enough, mono or poly has nothing to do with it. If I could just cut that out, that would be great, lol. |
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Post by maryisback on Oct 21, 2020 0:08:05 GMT
Thanks maryisback I'm so happy to have someone else with experience in this stuff to bounce things off, please keep reading! I put this post up 20 days ago, here's where I'm at with it right now. I decided to take this new situation for a ride. 7 months together is too early for the next relationship step anyway, which, if we decide to take it, I see as cohabitation, and which we both agree is a very real possibility. I feel like I have several months before I really have to poop or get off the pot, so to speak. This might be a chance for me to grow a lot, even if ultimately one or both of us opt out. "Sunny" and I have been deep in relationship negotiations, making agreements and codes of conduct, also incorporating a fact that I didn't mention earlier; we have a dom/sub sexual element in our relationship. So far these are verbal agreements, but will probably end in a written of course non-legally binding contract. This is something straight/monogamous/vanilla relationships don't normally have to deal with, but I assure you it's common in alternative communities. It's also the 1st time either of us have done this. I like it, it feels very....intentional I now see that he may have been AA in past relationships, and most likely he's flipped FA. In both his marriages, he believes he gave at the expense of his own well-being. Instead of the pursue/panic mode of the usual FA, Sunny invokes his need for a great deal of "me time" or "self-care," which seems to mean basically time away from partners or family members, but casual friends and new lovers who don't demand much don't seem to count. And of course, he is committed to living a ethically-non-monogamous lifestyle so he doesn't feel as if he's missing out on any great opportunities. He doesn't see this as a one-foot-out-the-door strategy, but as a way he can stay happy within a committed relationship. So far, the good things: 1) We've gone deep in our talks with each other. Honesty and vulnerability, check! 2) The man shows up. I've never had him break a promise, or not do what he says he'll do. I have never caught him in a lie or half-truth. I see him doing the work. 3) He does not seem to want to walk away from me, even when I'm not easy. 4) My own Fearful Avoidant tendencies are not triggered because monogamous commitment forever will not be required. 5) It's easier to hang on to my queer identity in a poly hetero relationship The bad: 1) For him, non-monogamy is non-negotiable at this time. I was in the same place 6 years ago after getting out of my marriage. He is, in this matter, putting his own gratification ahead of what's best for "us." Is this even a bad thing? Or just what he needs to do right now to grow as a person? 2) My Anxious avoidant tendencies are triggered just knowing he's got another lover, though on the surface of the relationship nothing has changed. Sure, this presents a great chance to work on myself, but would I be "safer" doing it within a monogamous relationship? 5) What if I met someone, especially a woman, I really like who offered me monogamy? Would I take it? Is this fair to Sunny? The truth is, I seem to get to a point in every relationship where I feel as conflicted as I feel right now. The honeymoon has ended, and now I feel like I want MORE. Nobody ever gives me enough, mono or poly has nothing to do with it. If I could just cut that out, that would be great, lol. I'll try to unpack here what I can. I think the most important thing is the last sentence. Needing more in every relationship is an anxious trait and I am sure other people here (not me) are better to address that. Being DA, that has never been an issue for me. #1 under "the bad" jumps out at me. You mention this is Dom/sub type relationship. I am very familiar and the one very important element is consent. These relationships work because both parties agree and consent. If you don't agree, somewhere down the road, a wheel will fall off. #2: There is no such thing as safer in my opinion. (except being alone? maybe). #3 (or your #5): Doesn't matter. You can't form relationships with the "what if" someone else comes along. I guess the real question is: Are you dissatisfied with the non monogamy because it's the "more" dissatisfaction you will eventually find in every relationship. (The "more" is the thread for you, but the actual thing you are dissatisfied with could vary with each relationship.) OR is it that non monogamy doesn't excite you anymore. In other words, if he gave you monogamy, would you find another thing you are dissatisfied with (and need "more")? |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 21, 2020 3:21:06 GMT
Thanks maryisback I'm so happy to have someone else with experience in this stuff to bounce things off, please keep reading! I put this post up 20 days ago, here's where I'm at with it right now. I decided to take this new situation for a ride. 7 months together is too early for the next relationship step anyway, which, if we decide to take it, I see as cohabitation, and which we both agree is a very real possibility. I feel like I have several months before I really have to poop or get off the pot, so to speak. This might be a chance for me to grow a lot, even if ultimately one or both of us opt out. "Sunny" and I have been deep in relationship negotiations, making agreements and codes of conduct, also incorporating a fact that I didn't mention earlier; we have a dom/sub sexual element in our relationship. So far these are verbal agreements, but will probably end in a written of course non-legally binding contract. This is something straight/monogamous/vanilla relationships don't normally have to deal with, but I assure you it's common in alternative communities. It's also the 1st time either of us have done this. I like it, it feels very....intentional I now see that he may have been AA in past relationships, and most likely he's flipped FA. In both his marriages, he believes he gave at the expense of his own well-being. Instead of the pursue/panic mode of the usual FA, Sunny invokes his need for a great deal of "me time" or "self-care," which seems to mean basically time away from partners or family members, but casual friends and new lovers who don't demand much don't seem to count. And of course, he is committed to living a ethically-non-monogamous lifestyle so he doesn't feel as if he's missing out on any great opportunities. He doesn't see this as a one-foot-out-the-door strategy, but as a way he can stay happy within a committed relationship. So far, the good things: 1) We've gone deep in our talks with each other. Honesty and vulnerability, check! 2) The man shows up. I've never had him break a promise, or not do what he says he'll do. I have never caught him in a lie or half-truth. I see him doing the work. 3) He does not seem to want to walk away from me, even when I'm not easy. 4) My own Fearful Avoidant tendencies are not triggered because monogamous commitment forever will not be required. 5) It's easier to hang on to my queer identity in a poly hetero relationship The bad: 1) For him, non-monogamy is non-negotiable at this time. I was in the same place 6 years ago after getting out of my marriage. He is, in this matter, putting his own gratification ahead of what's best for "us." Is this even a bad thing? Or just what he needs to do right now to grow as a person? 2) My Anxious avoidant tendencies are triggered just knowing he's got another lover, though on the surface of the relationship nothing has changed. Sure, this presents a great chance to work on myself, but would I be "safer" doing it within a monogamous relationship? 5) What if I met someone, especially a woman, I really like who offered me monogamy? Would I take it? Is this fair to Sunny? The truth is, I seem to get to a point in every relationship where I feel as conflicted as I feel right now. The honeymoon has ended, and now I feel like I want MORE. Nobody ever gives me enough, mono or poly has nothing to do with it. If I could just cut that out, that would be great, lol. I'll try to unpack here what I can. I think the most important thing is the last sentence. Needing more in every relationship is an anxious trait and I am sure other people here (not me) are better to address that. Being DA, that has never been an issue for me. #1 under "the bad" jumps out at me. You mention this is Dom/sub type relationship. I am very familiar and the one very important element is consent. These relationships work because both parties agree and consent. If you don't agree, somewhere down the road, a wheel will fall off. #2: There is no such thing as safer in my opinion. (except being alone? maybe). #3 (or your #5): Doesn't matter. You can't form relationships with the "what if" someone else comes along. I guess the real question is: Are you dissatisfied with the non monogamy because it's the "more" dissatisfaction you will eventually find in every relationship. (The "more" is the thread for you, but the actual thing you are dissatisfied with could vary with each relationship.) OR is it that non monogamy doesn't excite you anymore. In other words, if he gave you monogamy, would you find another thing you are dissatisfied with (and need "more")? Hey love bunny...I recognize the “more“....and for me...it stems from growing up feeling only “lack”...there was never enough love or time or money or presence from our parents....and it felt like they were holding out...like there was “enough” but that “enough“ was going elsewhere. At least that is the basis of mine. I don’t know that there is an answer, other then to recognize that “more” doesn’t exist within 1 person. |
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Post by lovebunny on Oct 21, 2020 15:36:39 GMT
maryisback said: "I guess the real question is: Are you dissatisfied with the non monogamy because it's the "more" dissatisfaction you will eventually find in every relationship. (The "more" is the thread for you, but the actual thing you are dissatisfied with could vary with each relationship.) OR is it that non monogamy doesn't excite you anymore. In other words, if he gave you monogamy, would you find another thing you are dissatisfied with (and need "more")?" The above is exactly what I'm wondering, thank you for putting it so succinctly. And your other responses are right on as well. Rest assured, the dom/sub narrative is fully consensual, and is working very well. Both of us have enough experience in this realm to understand and articulate safe boundaries. And yes, I'm doing a lot of "what if"-ing. He is much better at being in the moment than I and he often points out when I'm doing that. tnr9 you're a hundred percent correct, the need for "more" comes from old wounds. My "bucket" is hard to fill because it started off low because of a neglectful family life. Thank you for understanding!
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Post by lovebunny on Dec 8, 2020 22:14:16 GMT
Just so happens a book recently came out about attachment theory and polyamory. It's called POLYSECURE, I've now read it twice. Lots of good science and psychology in it. Turns out there's just as many secures, FA's, and AP's as in monogamous relationships, and both relationship styles create as much happiness and as much heartache. I knew that on a personal level, but it's nice to hear it from experts.
One of the things the authors talked about I found helpful: situational security vs. relational security (they might have used different words, but I think I'm getting it close to right.)
Situational = things like marriage, cohabitation, having kids, pets or a bank account together, etc.., the exchange of jewelry, granting of the title "boyfriend, girlfriend, fiancee, etc." In monogamous relationships, the promise of exclusivity is included among these. Of course, none of these situations guarantee you won't be neglected, abandoned, cheated on, etc.. But the entanglements, promises, titles are designed to make you feel more secure, to present you to the world as a couple.
Relational=how consistently your partner shows up for you. Traditions and rituals you have together. Memories you've made, milestones like first vacations together and holidays. Saying I love you. How your partner makes you feel when you're with them and when you're away from them. How deeply and honestly you talk. Touch, sex, affection. The keeping of one's word. The good stuff that means you AREN'T being abandoned, lied to, or neglected.
In poly relationships, you may not get as many of the situational securities. You definitely don't have the exclusivity, and, if you're a secondary or coprimary, or with someone who considers themselves a relationship anarchist, you might never get the title, marriage, kids or cohabitation with your partner, either. Which means you need to rely a lot more on the relational securities.
My current relationship, at almost 10 months in, is very relationally secure. He shows up for me, says he loves me, and acts like it. We make time for each other on holidays, take trips together. He's caring and considerate, affectionate, passionate, and emotionally available.
We have some situational securities too, though he's told me he never wants to marry again, and of course, he is not exclusive to me. I have the titles of "girlfriend" and "primary/anchor partner." He's given me a necklace I wear. He has a closet at my house, I have a bathroom area at his. He keeps a vehicle at my house so I can drive back and forth to his place. We talk about future cohabitation.
Despite all this, last night I had a huge bout of anxiety. It came on the heels of 3 nights/days in a row of very intense sex. We then spent 2 nights apart, and by the 2nd night, I was a mess when he didn't text me back fast enough, convinced he was off with his other lover while I wept all alone. He wasn't. He took some pain pills for his hurt back and fell asleep early.
It's frustrating as heck to have a nervous system that sees this love relationship (and all love relationships) as something threatening to my well being. This book described my situation perfectly: Basically, if intellectually and philosophically you believe in poly, but when poly happens your emotions revolt, you might be anxiously attached.
Anyway, wanted to let you all know about this book, in case it might be helpful to anyone else on the board.
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It must have felt so nice taking a vacation together and seeing the parks. So bonding.