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Post by alexandra on Jun 30, 2021 13:54:21 GMT
Has anyone experienced unconditional love outside of a parental relationship? I think part of this is your definition of unconditional love. I suspect there's the idealized insecure version, that another person is there for you no matter what and meets all your needs. That's not exactly what I believe is a healthy version of unconditional love. I think it's when someone cares for you and wants what's best for you without agenda, conflict doesn't break the connection over time because you work through it, and there's healthy boundaries both around self and the other person. So someone can unconditionally love you but NOT support you if you're being self-destructive or abusive, for example, and maybe even still leave in that case because they love themselves in a healthy way, too. Conflict is often extremely scary to insecures and even minor conflict can harm the connection or break the relationship because there's either no tools to handle it sustainability and it makes them doubt everything whether or not it is healthy to doubt, or one or the other person may be missing object constancy to varying degrees. Which makes a connection incredibly unstable. So in the sense I'm describing, yes, I think I have unconditional love and stable, healthy relationships with long-term friends, and my boyfriend constantly impresses me with his mature level of support and commitment (though I'm not going to say outright that's unconditional love because it's only been a year, which isn't that long, although he's extremely consistent and tests highly secure after earning it from avoidant earlier in his life). There's also the matter of choosing people who have the capacity for this healthy version, which is much harder to do when you yourself are insecure. My dating "picker" was set firmly to avoidant no matter what I did until I dealt with my own issues almost fully, so I never had unconditional romantic love before. Just push-pull instability that I stuck around for endlessly because of my AP insecurities. |
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Post by alexandra on Jun 30, 2021 13:59:49 GMT
Also FWIW, most of my oldest friends had insecure attachment styles too, some have completely worked through them, others not totally but definitely have made lots of progress. So like attracts like, my friends may also have had insecure attachment styles and our stability didn't come from one of us being secure. But all are curious, education-minded people who are interested in growth and taking responsibility for themselves and have empathy, which is one reason the bonds always endured. Since they weren't romantic, we also all never severely triggered each other, even when our attachment styles clashed, so that type of relationship is of course a little different. (Friendships I've had where we did trigger each other didn't last.)
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Post by annieb on Jun 30, 2021 15:38:04 GMT
I think we insecurely attached all absolutely have narcissistic and borderline traits (those are the schemas and coping mechanisms for the insecurely attached) maybe the only difference being that we are acknowledging our pain and the pain others feel, maybe it's a path of recovery, or maybe we had more empathy to begin with? In general I understand we want to put everyone into boxes and it's in a sense our own need to control. This diagnosing or psychoanalysis and the diagnostic manual. Maybe we don't all fit in neatly into the boxes and maybe it's ok:) Well said Annie, wise words for sure. I agree with your statement. And Perhaps the 2 main differences between a PD and an insecure attachment style are simply the severity and the insight then. I had just noticed some themes which I would associate with borderline traits being discussed here, and also been questioning if some of my own behaviours are borderline-esque. Despite how much I prattle on about my PD exes in other threads I'v noticed the proverbial abyss staring back at me as I gaze into it. I love the proverbial abyss staring back at us. Our relationships are always a mirror and like attracts like. In my own experience, I didn’t really start serious therapy until I got out of a relationship with a narcissist. Because even staying one minute in that relationship was an indicator that there was something I needed to look inwards for. And lo and behold, I found it, lots and lots of unhealed childhood trauma and compounded trauma I had re-enacted in relationships. I I’ve taken tests online on narcissism and borderline for years as if that would give me a magical chance to heal, and I’ve always come points short. I think throwing around the labels have made me more self conscious rather than self aware. The only thing that ever helped me get through my issues was talk therapy, and my therapist doesn’t use labels, beyond a “piece of work”. That makes me smile. |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 30, 2021 17:40:45 GMT
Can I also just say, about BPD...f or a very long time it's been regarded (by professionals especially) as incurable. They don't even like dealing with borderlines. But I honestly think it's just a dissociative and attachment disorder. Those always can be 'cured' aka be manageable enough so that it doesn't totally disrupt relationships and daily life. Emotional regulation can be taught. Trauma is the base for most everything in the DSM.
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Post by krolle on Jul 1, 2021 4:49:43 GMT
Can I also just say, about BPD...f or a very long time it's been regarded (by professionals especially) as incurable. They don't even like dealing with borderlines. But I honestly think it's just a dissociative and attachment disorder. Those always can be 'cured' aka be manageable enough so that it doesn't totally disrupt relationships and daily life. Emotional regulation can be taught. Trauma is the base for most everything in the DSM. I have significant experience with BPD partners as discussed in other threads. I do agree there are a lot more options for treatment nowadays. But I'm yet to see a person 'cured' of it, or even stable enough to function well romantically. Though im sure there are examples. And I do have a lot more compassion for BPD sufferers these days. but, I'm an adventurer by nature and been in some very adrenaline producing situations. None of them terrify me so much as BPD after my experiences. It has been the single most destructive force in my life I would say. In my opinion it's a disease of perception and memory. At least the most destructive parts of it, though attachment certainly plays a role. I'v seen UTTER conviction in the eyes of one of my BPD partners that a waitress who asked her if she would like to see the dessert menu was calling her fat by doing so. The unbridled hatred in her eyes at the perceived slight was something to behold. She could not conceive that the poor girl was just doing her job. It HAD to be a personal attack against her. Similarly I'v seen a friend of ours be accused of being a paedophile, just because she had a hunch he was, and became completely entrenched in the idea it must be true because she had a feeling. He's a school teacher so the allegation would have been devastating. luckily she got distracted by some other focus of rage shortly after. I trust him implicitly around children, and when I asked her if she had any evidence for her feeling she just got confused and said "I just know". |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jul 1, 2021 13:24:32 GMT
Yikes krolle. That sounds bad. However, I want to mention that dissociation and attachment disorders (like complex PTSD) do affect perception and memory, it's one of their most defining characteristics. I would still say that at the root, BPD (shouldn't be considered a personality disorder in my opinion) is trauma induced, whether it's from sexual/physical/verbal abuse, severe neglect, etc. The incidents you mention sound like severe cases of things I have experienced and reacted to in my worst moments. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 1, 2021 15:43:56 GMT
Yikes krolle. That sounds bad. However, I want to mention that dissociation and attachment disorders (like complex PTSD) do affect perception and memory, it's one of their most defining characteristics. I would still say that at the root, BPD (shouldn't be considered a personality disorder in my opinion) is trauma induced, whether it's from sexual/physical/verbal abuse, severe neglect, etc. The incidents you mention sound like severe cases of things I have experienced and reacted to in my worst moments. CPTSD is a really triggering word for me. Not because I don't believe it's a thing. But because I think it's an easy kop out for people with BPD to avoid taking accountability and deal with reality. I'v heard so many times people convinced that their symptoms are because of CPTSD, because it allows them to squarely shift the blame onto whoever they believe the cause of the trauma to be. usually a 'narcassistic' ex or caregiver. If you look at the comments section on many YouTube videos relating to the subject it's littered with people convinced their BPD diagnosis is a medical blunder and it MUST be this instead. I'm not saying both conditions exist and have lots of overlap. But BPD is more stigmatized and harder to blame shift than CPTSD which induces more people to "feel sorry for" and makes it easier to play the victim. Now I do agree with you that both situations are likely due to trauma. And I also want to clarify I'm not trying to establish BLAME, as we've discussed previously blame is a very unproductive and compassionless concept. But accountability is very useful. Is it your fault you had trauma or were abused growing up? Of course Not! Is it Your RESPONSIBILITY to manage your responses for both yourself and your loved ones. Absolutely, in my opinion. The biggest retardant to BPD 'recovery' in my opinion is the lack of insight. The ability to question reality. Whether what you feel and think are based on fact, to question whether your perceptions are real enough to be functional. Even if you believe something with absolute conviction could your ego allow another person or yourself to convince you that there might be a closer approximation of reality without you becoming defensive. Now we're talking about BPD here. But the same could be said for most of our discussions about attachment wounds in general. Insight, accountability, responsibility. With one or two exceptions, these are things I have more often than not seen from people on this forum. And one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for your opinions. Including yourself blacksnow. |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jul 1, 2021 18:41:28 GMT
I understand where you're coming from krolle . CPTSD lacks the stigma that surrounds BPD, and people with stress disorders are often given more leeway for their behaviors. But I'll just say... even without having BPD, I have acted abusively in the past (and even in the present) and have hurt people, due to projecting my own issues onto them and due to clouded perceptions. It kinda goes back to the idea that dullboat kept reiterating about avoidants being abusive. I don't think any of us are so innocent. When I really look at it that way, it makes me empathize with 'assholes' more (really, people with an overactive fight response... narcissists have that btw, and I imagine borderlines as well). I think one can be a victim and abusive at the same time. There's no clear cut categories in many cases, unfortunately. As far as taking accountability goes, yeah I generally agree. None of this changes the fact that they are the ones doing harm and therefore they are the ones responsible for their actions. |
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Post by star on Jul 1, 2021 21:16:10 GMT
I understand where you're coming from krolle . CPTSD lacks the stigma that surrounds BPD, and people with stress disorders are often given more leeway for their behaviors. But I'll just say... even without having BPD, I have acted abusively in the past (and even in the present) and have hurt people, due to projecting my own issues onto them and due to clouded perceptions. It kinda goes back to the idea that dullboat kept reiterating about avoidants being abusive. I don't think any of us are so innocent. When I really look at it that way, it makes me empathize with 'assholes' more (really, people with an overactive fight response... narcissists have that btw, and I imagine borderlines as well). I think one can be a victim and abusive at the same time. There's no clear cut categories in many cases, unfortunately. As far as taking accountability goes, yeah I generally agree. None of this changes the fact that they are the ones doing harm and therefore they are the ones responsible for their actions. you have so much insight into yourself - can I ask when did this happen? was it an event, a slow realization, etc? sorry if you already shared somewhere and I missed it. |
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 2, 2021 4:47:11 GMT
I understand where you're coming from krolle . CPTSD lacks the stigma that surrounds BPD, and people with stress disorders are often given more leeway for their behaviors. But I'll just say... even without having BPD, I have acted abusively in the past (and even in the present) and have hurt people, due to projecting my own issues onto them and due to clouded perceptions. It kinda goes back to the idea that dullboat kept reiterating about avoidants being abusive. I don't think any of us are so innocent. When I really look at it that way, it makes me empathize with 'assholes' more (really, people with an overactive fight response... narcissists have that btw, and I imagine borderlines as well). I think one can be a victim and abusive at the same time. There's no clear cut categories in many cases, unfortunately. As far as taking accountability goes, yeah I generally agree. None of this changes the fact that they are the ones doing harm and therefore they are the ones responsible for their actions. We are all adults here. There must be a line drawn where even if people are not self-aware, they are responsible for their abusive behaviours. Unless avoidants declare themselves insane, there's no way "lack of self-awareness" will wash in court. However I would love it that all avoidants declare themselves clinically insane because then they will be forced to seek professional help or locked away from the public, rather than going around wrecking people's lives in terms of wasting people's time on earth. I know I sound very harsh but avoidants is like a curse and it will be great to break this generational curse. If I'm a therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist, I'd be glad there's avoidants around because that ensures a constant supply of clients. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 2, 2021 10:11:11 GMT
I understand where you're coming from krolle . CPTSD lacks the stigma that surrounds BPD, and people with stress disorders are often given more leeway for their behaviors. But I'll just say... even without having BPD, I have acted abusively in the past (and even in the present) and have hurt people, due to projecting my own issues onto them and due to clouded perceptions. It kinda goes back to the idea that dullboat kept reiterating about avoidants being abusive. I don't think any of us are so innocent. When I really look at it that way, it makes me empathize with 'assholes' more (really, people with an overactive fight response... narcissists have that btw, and I imagine borderlines as well). I think one can be a victim and abusive at the same time. There's no clear cut categories in many cases, unfortunately. As far as taking accountability goes, yeah I generally agree. None of this changes the fact that they are the ones doing harm and therefore they are the ones responsible for their actions. I will disagree blacksnow….because even anxious leaning insecure behavior can be abusive….it just shows up in a different way. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 2, 2021 15:25:46 GMT
I understand where you're coming from krolle . CPTSD lacks the stigma that surrounds BPD, and people with stress disorders are often given more leeway for their behaviors. But I'll just say... even without having BPD, I have acted abusively in the past (and even in the present) and have hurt people, due to projecting my own issues onto them and due to clouded perceptions. It kinda goes back to the idea that dullboat kept reiterating about avoidants being abusive. I don't think any of us are so innocent. When I really look at it that way, it makes me empathize with 'assholes' more (really, people with an overactive fight response... narcissists have that btw, and I imagine borderlines as well). I think one can be a victim and abusive at the same time. There's no clear cut categories in many cases, unfortunately. As far as taking accountability goes, yeah I generally agree. None of this changes the fact that they are the ones doing harm and therefore they are the ones responsible for their actions. I don't think most of us here would claim innocence. The idea of innocence and guilt are not really very often productive anyway because it's all a matter of opinion. You can empathize with why someone is an asshole but disagree that their behaviour is productive/practical/effective. And to paraphrase you, I believe they are responsible for their actions, not because they are doing harm, but because they control them. I know I'v certainly hurt people before. And from what I understand, in most insecure/unhealthy/codependent relationships both partners are usually 'abusive' toward one another. Though I'm starting to really dislike the word abuse. It's thrown round so much lately it's starting to lose all meaning. It seems anybody who has been hurt in a relationship is convinced they are the victim of abuse. Again it's that desire to play the victim which is so prevalent in society these days. And so dysfunctional because it's ultimately a desire to avoid responsibility. I reiterate, not because the CAUSE is their fault, but because it devoids them of the responsibility to act productively to improve the situation. I also agree with what tnr9 said. Anxious types can be just as 'abusive' as avoidant types, just in a different way. For example an AP with severe attachment wounds can be prone to stalking type behaviours, extreme jealousy, slander campaigns etc. The likelihood of 'abusive' behaviours is dictated by the number and severity of their attachment traumas, and lack of healthy coping mechanisms, not by their attachment style. With regards to your own mental processes blacksnow, a sense I get from some of your posts is a view that you are somehow bad, or broken. And ashamed of it. I'm not an expert. It's just my perception. why do I think that... I struggle with the same feelings. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 2, 2021 15:27:39 GMT
What's your opinion on this Introvert? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 19:15:52 GMT
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Post by krolle on Jul 3, 2021 0:20:27 GMT
What's your opinion on this Introvert? My impression is that this thread might be intellectualization of some issues, only because there was recent distress about breaking up and now it seems a purely intellectual discussion about attachment styles and pathologies in general. That may or may not be the case it's just my impression, it may not be relevant. Certainly no limits on discussion and it's a good one. Do you see intellectuallization as a negative thing? I must admit I'm surprised it is you who would bring up the topic. I'm not sure how I feel about it. |
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