|
|
Post by krolle on May 11, 2021 23:16:24 GMT
Thank you for your words tnr9. I am going to take a little time to look into your previous posts and see if your story resonates with me. I am very interested in what you said about the SSRI in particular reducing the depth and time that you ruminated. I am very prone to long periods of very distressing rumination/ intrusive thoughts. Having a good imagination of course has its positive side, but mine tends to be used more often than not self destructively. For example having uncontrollable graphic images of ex partners. I envy you for being able to practice that type of somatic therapy. I am not able to articulate where any of my emotions come from in terms of a location on the body. Is it something that comes with experience? Also my tendency would be towards scepticism if someone were to tell me that I felt a certain emotion in my throat because of not having a voice as a child. I'm certainly not saying its not true. Just that it would sound like a handsome theory to me, but not sure if I could believe it to be truth without proof. That is quiet the irony that your dad was a psychologist and yet seemed quiet unaware of the dysfunction unfolding. But I am sorry it caused you so much distress. I hear the term narcassist thrown around a lot these days between warring couples, and have actually been called a narcissist myself by a disgruntled ex before. What made you think he was? I could see how that whole divorce episode would cause you some scars. The words “he did not want me” stood out as something that I can imagine being very easy to internalize and cause problems down the line. I should imagine that most of us on here are at least somewhat sensitive. If we weren't I don't think we would be putting so much effort into solving our relationship woes lol. I also shared a little bit of your pain when I read about your ex and your reason for coming here. 3 years is a long time to hurt about a relationship. One nice thing about forums like this which focus on a fairly specialist and personal topic, is that there is some sense of connection when you find out other like minded people are experiencing the same pain that you are. And the bunch of you can engage in a dialogue which helps to understand the processes going on for mutual benefit. Like a mastermind group or something. A big part of the distress of things like relationships problems is that they are often so hard to understand. But at least if you are able understand what went on, you can learn it doesn't feel quiet so futile. Well done for learning to trust yourself and others more. Big struggle for me as previously mentioned..... I am intrigued by you seeing yourself as a guardian of yourself. I really struggle with this concept, the same as when people talk about self love, having a relationship with yourself etc. Do you mean something fairly radical, like you actually almost invent an alter ego which you can draw strength from when in doubt? Or do you mean something more along the lines you just try be a little more firm with your boundaries etc. Sorry if that's a difficult topic to explain, but I am interest to listen to your take on it. With regards to choice. Then I think what you are getting at is something similar to the stoic philosophy? In the sense of accepting that there are events you have no choice/ control over but do have some choice in the way you respond to them? A difficult thing to stay mindful of in my opinion, especially when you are triggered, but certainly valuable if you are able to master it! I also conceptualize your/our desire for choice to harken to a deeper need, which is to feel in control of your own destiny.... agency I think is the word I'm looking for. People who have better skills/ learnings on a specific subject are usually able to have better control over events, and therefore more choice...... hence the reason most of us are here trying to work out what the hell is going on in our relationships I imagine  |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on May 12, 2021 3:52:05 GMT
Thank you for your words tnr9. I am going to take a little time to look into your previous posts and see if your story resonates with me. I am very interested in what you said about the SSRI in particular reducing the depth and time that you ruminated. I am very prone to long periods of very distressing rumination/ intrusive thoughts. Having a good imagination of course has its positive side, but mine tends to be used more often than not self destructively. For example having uncontrollable graphic images of ex partners. I envy you for being able to practice that type of somatic therapy. I am not able to articulate where any of my emotions come from in terms of a location on the body. Is it something that comes with experience? Also my tendency would be towards scepticism if someone were to tell me that I felt a certain emotion in my throat because of not having a voice as a child. I'm certainly not saying its not true. Just that it would sound like a handsome theory to me, but not sure if I could believe it to be truth without proof. That is quiet the irony that your dad was a psychologist and yet seemed quiet unaware of the dysfunction unfolding. But I am sorry it caused you so much distress. I hear the term narcassist thrown around a lot these days between warring couples, and have actually been called a narcissist myself by a disgruntled ex before. What made you think he was? I could see how that whole divorce episode would cause you some scars. The words “he did not want me” stood out as something that I can imagine being very easy to internalize and cause problems down the line. I should imagine that most of us on here are at least somewhat sensitive. If we weren't I don't think we would be putting so much effort into solving our relationship woes lol. I also shared a little bit of your pain when I read about your ex and your reason for coming here. 3 years is a long time to hurt about a relationship. One nice thing about forums like this which focus on a fairly specialist and personal topic, is that there is some sense of connection when you find out other like minded people are experiencing the same pain that you are. And the bunch of you can engage in a dialogue which helps to understand the processes going on for mutual benefit. Like a mastermind group or something. A big part of the distress of things like relationships problems is that they are often so hard to understand. But at least if you are able understand what went on, you can learn it doesn't feel quiet so futile. Well done for learning to trust yourself and others more. Big struggle for me as previously mentioned..... I am intrigued by you seeing yourself as a guardian of yourself. I really struggle with this concept, the same as when people talk about self love, having a relationship with yourself etc. Do you mean something fairly radical, like you actually almost invent an alter ego which you can draw strength from when in doubt? Or do you mean something more along the lines you just try be a little more firm with your boundaries etc. Sorry if that's a difficult topic to explain, but I am interest to listen to your take on it. With regards to choice. Then I think what you are getting at is something similar to the stoic philosophy? In the sense of accepting that there are events you have no choice/ control over but do have some choice in the way you respond to them? A difficult thing to stay mindful of in my opinion, especially when you are triggered, but certainly valuable if you are able to master it! I also conceptualize your/our desire for choice to harken to a deeper need, which is to feel in control of your own destiny.... agency I think is the word I'm looking for. People who have better skills/ learnings on a specific subject are usually able to have better control over events, and therefore more choice...... hence the reason most of us are here trying to work out what the hell is going on in our relationships I imagine I would suggest speaking to your doctor about lexapro. The really good thing about it is it is a very low dose...the medical dose is 20 mcg, but I am good at 15 mcg. I probably should have worded my somatic experiencing session a bit better. It wasn’t that my therapist told me that I had no voice....she asked what I thought was at the root of my feeling embarrassment, anger and sadness in my throat and we started to dialogue about my experiences as a child and I am the one who ultimately determined it was tied to not having any voice. But I have been in therapy for decades...so some of this work was underway with my prior therapist. I think getting to understand where your feeling reside in your body is very helpful to getting ahead of them...it doesn’t always work but it is better. How I came to the conclusion that my dad had narcissistic personality traits has to do from several decades of interactions with him. I could go into more detail, but since he recently died and I made peace about him, I really don’t want to dredge up past hurtful moments. I don’t see myself as having a different persona.....but I did attend heart sync which is a Christian form of therapy. Guardian is used in that therapy so I have applied it to my healing process. The goal of the Heartsync model is to release trauma, false beliefs and unresolved conflict and to receive truth and a new role assignment from God. Once these parts of the heart "Function, Guardian and Emotion" resolve their conflict between God and with one another, an individual is free to be the person God intended as well as to live with a whole heart. |
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on May 13, 2021 11:41:37 GMT
Real quick, it seems you are interested in some self-guided therapy... and in addition to everything else mentioned, I think the "internal family systems" model (Richard Schwartz) can be very helpful in this process, in addition to everything else. Also "Self-Therapy Guide" by Jay Earley is highly rated.
|
|
|
|
Post by amber on May 14, 2021 4:19:56 GMT
Check out Daniel browns “ideal parent protocol” if you’re interested. I’ve been doing this with my psychologist for the last year with good results so far…takes a long time to work though. You use images and imagination to reprogram your working model of self and attachment. Your brain doesn’t effectively know the difference between what’s real and imagined so it works to restructure your attachment style. George Haas who’s trained in it has some great free material in his website about it, plus good recorded talks on attachment styles tok
|
|
|
|
Post by annieb on May 14, 2021 13:14:16 GMT
To chime in - the most progress I ever made was with a trained and professional therapist in regular weekly and biweekly talk therapy sessions. They will know how to challenge you and how to guide you.
But if you’re not ready for that (many men unfortunately can’t make that leap because of social conditioning), the next best thing I found was CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), there are apps and workbooks (on Amazon if you’re a paper person) out there that you can use.
I used Pocket CBT app a lot a few years ago and it was really helpful showing some of my black and white thinking patterns and abandonment issues and just illustrating the silliness of it. I was able to get over things faster once I started the exercises.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on May 15, 2021 9:26:57 GMT
I'm sorry that your ex did not seem to have the insight into his own shame, did you experience much in the way of dishonesty, or did it manifest in another way? His dishonesty manifested in two ways, either fear-based responses to potential conflict or in lying to himself and therefore not realizing he was lying to others. His fear of conflict either brought on a fawning response (people-pleasing) or an avoidant response (not outright lying but omission, usually in anticipation of imagined conflict rather than outright lying or omitting in response to direct questions). When he lied to himself, it was tied to dissociation and disconnection. So either way, it was dysfunctional defense mechanisms resulting in poor communication skills. To connect the dialogue back to attachment styles I have heard BPD described as looking like FA but in my experience it has looked much more like AP, especially when there is a threat of abandonment, even just a perceived one. I believe you mentioned you were/are AP at some point, so would like your perspective, do you think a triggered AP could resemble someone with BPD? I'm much better versed in NPD. However, while much more extreme, BPD is like AP or the anxious side of FA in needing other people to provide them with validation due to low or non-existent self-esteem, and a lack of ability to emotionally self-regulate. But BPD is like FA in that someone with BPD doesn't have an organized strategy for getting their needs met (disorganized attachment). BPD also lacks object constancy, which is not an issue in normal insecure attachment that isn't comorbid with a personality disorder, and so engages in splitting / black and white thinking all the time, which insecure attachers without additional problems don't. So there may be aspects reminiscent of different insecure attachment styles, but it's a far more complicated and pathological response to trauma, and behaviors are more extreme. I believe someone with BPD can actually have either an AP or FA attachment style but then the BPD is comorbid on top of that. (And a triggered AP fearing abandonment will look very similar to an anxiously triggered FA fearing abandonment, at least until that particular triggered episode passes.) |
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on May 15, 2021 17:02:04 GMT
While maybe not a popular conception, I tend to look at the trauamatic conditions that caused different attachment styles, and when those conditions were "turned up to 11" then the following:
Conditions that informed DA behavior, when extreme would be causal for NPD traits
Conditions that informed FA behavior, when extreme would be causal for BPD traits
Conditions that informed AA behavior, when extreme would be causal for Co-dependency traits
And "conditions" including both the environment, and also the wiring/personality of the person affected.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on May 15, 2021 17:30:48 GMT
Yes, studies I've read are BPD can have a couple insecure attachment styles (often called "unresolved," like it failed to finish developing because trauma paused emotional development altogether, but with an either AP or FA basis recognized) but the biggest predictor earlier in childhood for BPD is FA traits. I'm not sure if this is the reason scientifically, but I believe it's because a child would be showing a genetic disposition to dealing with adversity in a disorganized way and then either it would become a defense mechanism adaptation of full blown BPD after a traumatic enough inflection point and/or doctors don't generally clinically diagnose personality disorders until after childhood.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on May 15, 2021 19:58:37 GMT
Agreed, in the prediction of the formation of the coping mechanism strategy towards BPD from earlier FA formats.
Really, it's all the same spectrum in my opinion, in that DA/FA occurs from certain levels of trauma (and certain levels of an individual handling it well), then kick it up higher into deeper CPTSD territory and you have stronger disorderment that goes into NPD/BPD.
Also interesting is the strong overlap with covert narcissism and BPD, and more recent thinking that NPD is not grandiosity, but actually shame-based... just like BPD. So NPD and BPD might actually be the same thing, with the difference that NPD and the grandiose narcissist was more successful in "completing" their defense mechanism of creating and embracing the false self, whereas the BPD couldn't quite get there and fully create a false self, so they are stuck in the BPD range without the benefit of a grandiosity false self defense (and therefore operating into vulnerable narcissism traits).
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on May 15, 2021 21:24:41 GMT
The flip side to that is BPD can still be helped through therapy and managed if (big if!) the person with it is aware and really wants help. It's possible for them to accept it and do some work on it. NPD (which I completely buy is shame-based) has such distorted thinking about other people being extensions of themselves instead of their own entities that no one knows how to get through and treat it. And even if they do, it might just break the NPD person since they have no real identity left under the false one. But we are digressing I think the more important piece is both cluster-B types are severely abusive over time, intentional or not, and that abuse impacts other people and can easily swing others to insecure styles if they stick around long enough, or are children who get all that confusing and abusive behavior normalized. Those children, in turn, will be more likely to put up with similar behaviors in others as adults because it seems familiar and can validate existing (subconscious) patterns and worldviews, even if they are painful. So for someone working through their own insecure attachment issues, it may help in understanding and re-voicing their narrative and multi-generational trauma to look at extended family normalized behaviors that are actually painful and dysfunctional. |
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on May 15, 2021 21:48:50 GMT
Completely agree that trauma begets trauma, generation after generation. In fact, reminds me of a study that untreated insecure attachment styles, tend to cause significant adverse affect and persevere for 4+ generations.
And yes, NPD is more deeply entrenched so harder to heal. While reparenting is helpful for most attachment styles, it's almost like for NPD you have to blow everything up from ground zero and start from scratch to rebuild the psyche. And since this can be hard getting through defenses with talk therapy, there have been some promising research modalities around EMDR and such for NPD (and also for BPD).
|
|
|
|
Post by krolle on May 15, 2021 23:59:51 GMT
O.P here.
Great dialogue guys. I'm enjoying the insightful and friendly back and forth. And also the recommendations from several of you regarding different types of therapies. just haven't had time to chime in for the last day or two myself. I will when I get chance this weekend.
Thankyou for the input regarding personality disorders. It means a lot. And also you saying that people with cluster B personality disorders can be very abusive over time resonated. One of the reasons that I brought the subject up was that my last serious relationship nearly destroyed me. I was convinced that she had BPD or something similar. And I have a very limited support network, so she really turned the screw on my suffering while I was "trapped and isolated" there.
But one thing that has really shook since that ended is that I have started to wonder whether everything was indeed my fault. Maybe I'm the one with a personality disorder as she often accused me of. I'm not sure anymore, I'm willing to take accountability if I was to blame for everything, but I'm very unsure, the behaviour was extreme and I lived in fear a long time. It's part of the reason I have started to study attachment styles. To try understand what was a very confusing and painful episode of my life. And the role I played in it.
Many thanks
Krolle
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on May 16, 2021 1:01:38 GMT
If you're looking for advice about the most efficient next steps in dealing with this, before you decide on a therapy type to explore, I'd highly recommend you find a therapist who is knowledgeable about attachment theory, personality disorders, and people with insecure or PD (ex)-partners, and get a diagnosis. I'm inclined to initially doubt you have a personality disorder if you haven't had any big T trauma that you can recall. While it's true that BPD and NPD people pairing up is not uncommon (and so, so destructive...), AP and especially FA can very easily find themselves in an relationship with a person with BPD or NPD, that started off amazing and then devolved into chaos and abuse and discarding over time, with the person triggered anxious and blaming themselves and codependently not leaving or leaving way, way too late after enduring too much. I am glad you're open to the idea that maybe you have one, seriously enough to check on the possibility, because most people with PD are not really open to it which is why they don't get treated. But the fact you're considering it in itself is also making me inclined to think it's unlikely, and you are far more likely to have an insecure attachment style which may be extreme enough to have made your adult life difficult. I haven't ever dated someone with a personality disorder for any amount of time, because the couple times I started suspecting one early on I ran for the hills (though in each case I waited a month to collect more information and started receiving abuse and should have left even earlier...), but both situations involved them gaslighting me with irrational blame which is how I figured it out. So being told it is YOUR problem by an ex who has the problem but projects it back on to you as a defense mechanism is very possible, and I wouldn't assume they are right unless you really think it matches because you've run into the same issues over and over throughout your personal life and you get a professional opinion.
Insecure attachment can make you struggle with everything, you don't need a personality disorder for that to be the case. If it turns out it is insecure attachment and not comorbid with PD, you're going to need time to heal from the abusive relationship and rebuild your self-esteem in addition to digging into the origins of childhood attachment trauma, and a lot of people on this forum have been there and done that (or are doing that) and can share some tips or be a sounding board.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on May 16, 2021 10:06:27 GMT
Thankyou for the input regarding personality disorders. It means a lot. And also you saying that people with cluster B personality disorders can be very abusive over time resonated. One of the reasons that I brought the subject up was that my last serious relationship nearly destroyed me. I was convinced that she had BPD or something similar. And I have a very limited support network, so she really turned the screw on my suffering while I was "trapped and isolated" there. I can understand, and I had a similar experience with a very strong FA/DA (and maybe BPD traits) and isolated local support structure in a new place. I was gaslighted and blame-shifted to moon and back, and it was crazy-making. And let me say this, I test 100% secure, and very self-confident and self-aware and have a strong sense of self. So I did a lot of soul-searching as well, after the experience. And what I concluded, was that this person also had a lot of great qualities, and I wasn't attracted to the drama, but the genuine qualities under the surface, and wanted her to heal. And when it became clear after a few months she was not on that path, I had to set my boundaries and walk. So it's NOT always a DA-AP dance, nor an NPD-BPD dance. And what also gave me comfort, was looking back and that I do NOT have a habit of dating unhealthy people, in fact quite the opposite, I have dated very healthy people and have had great relationship dynamics with no drama and full of love. So I think this might be the deepest real question you can ask yourself, is what were you really attracted to, and do you have a history of unhealthy relationships? This authentic insight can maybe give you some good information to reflect on, because patterns can show deeper constructs at work. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 14:49:03 GMT
krolle , welcome and I'm glad you are finding such great support here, too. I've found the board to be very helpful. If I understand correctly, you did identify a pattern, a long history of dysfunctional relationships, and that's how you found attachment theory. That right there is a huge step! I agree with alexandra too, in that it's rarely that a PD person will question themselves like you are. You seem a sensitive, insightful, and kind individual here, and you also seem very open to assistance and support. I haven't found these to be qualities expressed in a disordered personality. Instead , we might see a lot of self justification, hostility, overwhelming personal shame, you know- the extremes. All people are capable of a range of reactions in the spectrum from shame to pride... it's to what degree and how often and are they inhibiting growth and change. That's not the whole nut with PD of course, I'm just saying that when a person presents as open, curious, and willing to question themselves it's a very good sign that growth and healing can be had, in my personal opinion. Sooner rather than later. Of course some people in a lot of pain would present themselves in an extreme end of emotion and gradually come more to center as they process. I'm glad you're seeking support for yourself, and I see this optimistically for you. I'm sorry you've hurt for so long but reading around here, I think there is great reason to be optimistic in finding real solutions. kittygirl is recent proof. This is a great thread and will help you and others.
|
|
