|
|
Post by spaghetti on Nov 26, 2021 23:38:45 GMT
Hey folks, I recently found this forum and it’s been really helpful for my processing of recent events. There seems to be a lot of great insight from this community and I’m hoping to gain some perspective on my current situation. Sorry, it's a bit long.
I definitely lean towards AP attachment, but I’ve benefited a lot from a relationship that ended about 3 weeks ago and (compared to how I have experienced my own attachment in the past) would say I was generally more secure with her. That said, I suspect my most recent ex is FA, and I can definitely see how my AP tendencies increased in reaction to the occasional more avoidant side of her behaviour. I’m in the late half of my twenties and would say I have a history of relationships with avoidant types; some FA, probably, but the most “defining” relationships seem more DA in hindsight. The most traumatic experiences with partners, caregivers, and close friends seem to involve people who share a few qualities; avoidant behaviour, people-pleasing tendencies that hurt the relationship, and narcissistic traits/behaviours. I’m not saying that they were all villainous NPD DAs, but these are red-flags I started looking out for as I rebuilt my life after some of those relationships went up in flames.
This past year’s relationship started during the pandemic and looking for “red flags” was pretty hard to do early on. One big difference was that resentment wasn’t ever taken out on me the ways I expected. When my most recent ex told me that she was concerned about how bad her own people-pleasing had gotten shortly before we broke up, I was quite confused. I’d started seeing it in her a bit as public health restrictions loosened up, but she wasn’t turning it against me like others had. I figured she was either more in control of it or it just hadn’t escalated yet. I can admit that I had anxiety about the latter possibility, and that response would probably be triggering to an FA. I hadn’t considered her attachment style, really… she had only been in one relationship prior to ours and expressed she had not been invested in it, so there wouldn’t have been much to go off.
We talked about stress but didn’t have “fights” where hurtful things were said or someone started yelling or anything. We both showed one another a lot of love, laughed constantly, were physically affectionate, talked about the future, made decisions together and plans with people, and expressed how much we loved one another and our relationship. From my perspective, we were each going through some stuff but were there for each other to figure it out. I felt we were approaching easier times for a number of logistical reasons. This was the case right up until she blindsided me with the break-up.
The more I read about FA responses, the more I can sympathize with her for handling it the way she did. It seemed extremely out of character and I was honestly super concerned about her. There were mixed signals in the break-up itself… the contrast in a single conversation between “I have never loved anyone the way I love you and I don’t want to lose this” and “what if staying would just be me continuing to people-please?” … “when it’s the two of us it’s so incredible” and “I don’t know who I am anymore or what to do”. We both cried, held one another, and talked about everything we didn’t want to lose. I couldn’t really tell what she wanted, or if she even knew, so she left to stay somewhere else for the night and said we’d talk the next day… when she came, she told me she still loved me and always would, but the relationship was over. She let friends in suddenly to collect her things and left saying we shouldn’t talk for at least a few months. She deleted me off most apps, but nothing anyone else would be able to see.
The next day, she gave me a bit more explanation. Essentially, she’d fallen into a caretaker role but admitted that she knew I hadn’t wanted to let that happen. She said she hadn’t realized how long “recovery” can take a person, mostly referring to my struggle with trauma responses and alcohol dependence. She had overextended herself trying to give everyone what they wanted from her, she’d lost herself doing it, and she couldn’t put off working on herself to see if I would get better. She couldn’t stay because she didn’t know how to stop trying to make things easier for me. Seeing me would make it impossible to stand behind her decision, so she had to cut me out completely.
After about a week of NC, she came over to pick up more things as agreed. The vibe had changed from “I need to get every last thing I own from this house NOW” to “I can grab it whenever you get around to finding it”, possibly because I’d respected her need for space or because her friend had stayed in touch with me and knew how I’d been handling things. Learning that my evening drinking habits and watching me suffer through trauma responses caused someone I loved to doubt our future and go through pain to run away just flipped something in me. I know it’s easy to overlook the bad things as an AP dumpee, and it’s likely she wasn’t communicating well, but if there was ever a time that I could have replaced unhealthy coping mechanisms it was with her and the support/acceptance she gave me. It felt like a huge waste to ignore that and spiral into my usual post-breakup behaviour. Somehow, I quit drinking, started going to group meetings, got back into therapy, fought to get on a waitlist for another psych eval, and started facing some of my trauma head-on. I told loved ones about the drinking and a past abusive relationship. I talked to my mom about how her people-pleasing had affected me growing up and it improved our relationship. I read a book on relationship dynamics when one partner has BPD.
I can admit I’m ruminating, but we’ve maintained NC for 3 weeks and I’m doing my best to focus on myself. I can’t really say, “she just isn’t the right partner for you” based on this blindsiding experience when she’s also in therapy and the most emotionally mature partner I’ve had - it was her first serious relationship, so an inevitable learning experience for better or worse. I’ve faced my greatest fear (abandonment) way better than I’d ever expect from myself, and I’m proud of achieving almost a month of sobriety through a very triggering time. I know she needs time and space and that I have things to gain from it too, but she never said what her own goals for that were. Just that she was incredibly sad about it. I worry that if neither of us checks in, the distance will eventually cause me to “split” (I have "quiet" BPD) and I may be too closed off if/when she does open up about her feelings. I also worry that she may be afraid of facing feelings of guilt or trusting herself if my progress eventually makes her reconsider the decision.
I guess my question is whether an FA could benefit from seeing someone accept and take action to correct issues they expressed, even if they did so in an “unhealthy” way. If whoever triggered you took accountability for their side of things, validated your feelings, and treated the situation like a learning opportunity rather than a “betrayal”, would it make it easier to lower your guard and consider them a safe person to be vulnerable with? I don’t mean that I would be willing to let the whole thing slide to try to “return to normal”, but I would like the opportunity to understand what happened, learn from it, and assess whether there is potential for a healthy relationship with this person (with caution). One of my best friends is an ex from several years ago - in our case, a healthy romantic relationship was not possible, but a healthy friendship has been great for us both.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Nov 27, 2021 1:48:58 GMT
Hi spaghetti, welcome to the board. I primarily wanted to say congratulations on your first month of sobriety, that's a big deal! It is something to be proud of yourself about, so please keep it up. It sounds like her explanation was describing that you two had fallen into codependence. Even if you didn't see it that way or weren't trying to have her mind read, anticipate needs, or help you fix your problems, she was telling you she couldn't help it because of her own struggles and conditioning to play that role with people in her life. I think that makes complete sense and was actually commendable of her as well to recognize the pattern you were falling into and take a stance on it. Yes, it's of course better for someone to communicate prior to making a decision, and better for them not to blind side you and make a decision on your behalf. But based on how you've described this, I think she is in earnest trying to be healthy even if she's still groping around trying to figure out exactly how to get there. These issues, and insecure attachment issues more generally, tend to take at least a couple years to really sort out. They didn't form overnight (it took years!), so they don't get healed overnight either. Since you're both in your 20s and she's not very experienced in relationships, I also believe what she said about underestimating the process and dynamic. When even one person is working on issues, it's hard. To answer your question, I think you are handling things well by leaning into healthier coping mechanisms and learning to do right by yourself as opposed to spiraling out into past destructive behaviors over the break up. When someone is really serious about changing for themselves and taking the steps to do it, people notice. They notice from actions, they notice from words and actions being aligned, and they notice from consistency over time. If she is working on herself and earning secure (which will take her time) and you are in earnest doing the same, if you do reconnect in several months, there may be a positive shift in dynamic. The question actually wouldn't be do FAs notice, it would be do people who are earning secure notice, because it is quite different. If she's serious about doing the work, how she'll approach a future version of you is extremely different from how an unaware FA ex partner would see it. You can't guess or anticipate what will happen, though. Even within yourself and if you'll "split" with distance. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. I do think she's setting up the best possible conditions for future reconnection, if it happens, in regards to the most likely scenario in which the dynamic between you two could truly grow and change. And it does require no contact and focusing on your own issues, which it sounds like between therapy and taking your sobriety seriously, you have started doing in earnest. I understand that it's difficult to feel out of control of a situation and give it time, work, and effort without being sure of what the outcome will be. But all this stuff really is a process, and your perspective will change later (in a good way, not repeating destructive patterns) on if you stick with it. |
|
|
|
Post by spaghetti on Nov 27, 2021 3:31:23 GMT
It sounds like her explanation was describing that you two had fallen into codependence. Even if you didn't see it that way or weren't trying to have her mind read, anticipate needs, or help you fix your problems, she was telling you she couldn't help it because of her own struggles and conditioning to play that role with people in her life. I think that makes complete sense and was actually commendable of her as well to recognize the pattern you were falling into and take a stance on it. Yes, it's of course better for someone to communicate prior to making a decision, and better for them not to blind side you and make a decision on your behalf. But based on how you've described this, I think she is in earnest trying to be healthy even if she's still groping around trying to figure out exactly how to get there. Thank you for the reply! All good points, and I agree with your assessment. In our "last" conversations, we didn't shy away from using the word "codependence" - I hadn't seen it that way, exactly, given the context of the pandemic. I have been in therapy and such on-and-off for over ten years and have always kept working on various things affecting my life and relationships, so my history with mental health issues and the potential for codependence etc were things we discussed prior to starting our relationship and at points throughout. The tricky thing was avoiding codependent behaviour during a period when, where we live, public health orders quite literally restricted the number of people you could see, what activities you could do, etcetera. I was working from home until August and had lost much of my social circle through unfortunate events the previous year, which both played into the trauma I'm currently unpacking and made it more difficult to differentiate. Many of her friends/family lived quite far away and have only recently been able to come visit. Now that I've returned to an office and am able to spend time with friends face-to-face (virtual visits really lost their power when I was spending hours a day in virtual meetings, too), I think this reset to how I view my own situation has already made a huge difference. Getting out of my probation period with a new company and having health benefits again also opens the door to professional support I haven't been able to afford for a while. There were also other more logistical stressors on her, like the landlords removing the laundry machines from the building and her being the only one with a car to transport laundry... I would imagine things like that to be hard to stop offering help with, but I've had to find alternate solutions since the break-up anyway. I guess what I'm trying to say is that addressing codependency wouldn't necessarily feel like starting from scratch so much as correcting course? I also think it was commendable of her, and I do believe she is trying to be healthy. I suppose I'm disappointed that I hadn't earned the trust needed to approach the subject with an expectation for things to change? If that was mostly the result of her own conditioning, I recognize that it is her own issue to work through but do believe I have the right mindset, enough self-awareness, and genuine motivation to be a supportive ally in that process if it suited her. Because of the work I've done on my BPD and such, it's also quite easy to fall into the trap of accepting responsibility for it in full. There's a feeling of control to be gained through doing so... "it is my fault, but changing my behaviour alone could have prevented it or could fix it now." Being open about having BPD also comes with a fair share of stigma, and people on the outside can jump to a lot of conclusions about relationship problems if they know one party has a diagnosis like that. If you look at what people experience through toxic BPD dynamics, there's a lot of overlap in language with what avoidant people experience when triggered by intimacy. Wherever the root of it may be, the experience itself isn't a hard thing for me to validate or address so long as I am aware that it's happening. She didn't put blame on me for her leaving, but the silence leaves me wondering if acknowledging my own part in things and demonstrating positive change would allow both of us to heal more easily, or if it would simply frustrate her. She did say she would hear out my apologies when I told her I wanted to wait until my own situation was a bit more stabilized and they wouldn't be lost to the more "desperate" nature of the days following a break-up, and that she would give thought to when she could. I encouraged her not to make that decision too quickly when she suggested telling me within a day or two, and I also let her know that it was okay to contact one of my friends before reaching out if she was worried about what state I might be in (which she appreciated). While knowing the outcome is impossible, what she's feeling now would make a difference as far as how to approach the present. How much my drinking and such motivated her decision to go for such a sudden and "clean" break-up is also a factor. No one, including my friends, expected me to make a change like that, and I don't really have the history of trying and failing that's often seen. I wouldn't expect a couple months of sobriety and self-care to undo what she realized was a problem for her, but it could change what options she sees while we continue working on ourselves since our relationship was always one that encouraged self-improvement. She specifically asked for me to offer her any sentimental things from our relationship if I wanted to get rid of them, but erased our online connections etc... if the reason for that is avoiding reminders that could stir guilt, I just worry she's suffering for no reason? I'm not sure if offering an update at some point would be a relief. I've seen her avoid contact with people she worried she'd let down in pretty small ways, so I can't imagine it would be easy to reach out to someone she left scrambling to sort out the logistics of a partner moving out without warning. My loved ones aren't angry with her, either, but I think most people would expect to be seen as the "bad guy" in this situation. I support any of her decisions made in an attempt to be healthy, but it's hard to know which are that versus protective reactions when I don't know if she's even aware of what I'm doing. It may be worth noting more directly that we are also both women, so the community of friends and such treat the whole thing a bit differently. On her side, parents weren't the most enthusiastic about her choosing to date a woman, but my own family came to terms with it years ago and respect her and the situation. Similarly, people who have known me a long time saw healthy changes in me through this relationship, but her support network doesn't really have a previous partner to compare me to. Me being more mindful of how they viewed the relationship could have saved her a lot of stress, but I only gained much of this information when this happened. I feel like my reaction differs quite a bit from what someone fearful of conflict would expect, and maybe that's a valuable experience for someone working towards secure attachment. I don't know. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Nov 27, 2021 4:05:49 GMT
I think you're seeing the codependent lens through your side. You need to take yourself out of the equation entirely and see it through hers. I'll try to give you an alternate perspective.
Your ex says she has problems with codependency. I have a close female FA friend who does as well. I went to visit her, and I was a little shocked. Every single thing I said was taken as a request or criticism or feedback of some sort. Perfectly benign, neutral comments, that had no hidden meaning at all. I didn't exactly understand, although I knew she was under a ton of stress both professionally and personally that was completely unrelated to me. I told her, I'm not making any requests or giving you feedback. If I needed something, I would just say it, let you know directly. She apologized and said that I've long known she's codependent, and she literally can't hear another person without hearing needs and requests because of how she was raised. She is always trying to anticipate and mind read, with pretty much everyone. I've known her for a very, very long time but we hadn't needed to share accommodations before. So while I knew this about her in theory, I hadn't even seen it in action and was overwhelmed by her causing her own overwhelm. It didn't impact our friendship at all, but I learned it's much easier for us when we're not sharing space. It was entirely on her side, though, I was doing nothing to trigger this, which we confirmed in discussion. I wasn't being passive aggressive. It was the most innocent passing conversational comments that I would never have thought could be even interpreted as requests, but it's how she is conditioned to receive. So she needs to and wants to work on it (and has been in therapy to do so).
Imagine how hard that would be if I was a romantic attachment figure. The stakes, and the projection onto the partner from unresolved past issues, are both higher. Your ex laying a boundary down for herself in this way isn't because you caused her to. It's something she's working on and isn't ready to deal with in a relationship quite yet, she's not there yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by spaghetti on Nov 27, 2021 4:25:51 GMT
I think you're seeing the codependent lens through your side. You need to take yourself out of the equation entirely and see it through hers. I'll try to give you an alternate perspective. Your ex says she has problems with codependency. I have a close female FA friend who does as well. I went to visit her, and I was a little shocked. Every single thing I said was taken as a request or criticism or feedback of some sort. Perfectly benign, neutral comments, that had no hidden meaning at all. I didn't exactly understand, although I knew she was under a ton of stress both professionally and personally that was completely unrelated to me. I told her, I'm not making any requests or giving you feedback. If I needed something, I would just say it, let you know directly. She apologized and said that I've long known she's codependent, and she literally can't hear another person without hearing needs and requests because of how she was raised. She is always trying to anticipate and mind read, with pretty much everyone. I've known her for a very, very long time but we hadn't needed to share accommodations before. So while I knew this about her in theory, I hadn't even seen it in action and was overwhelmed by her causing her own overwhelm. It didn't impact our friendship at all, but I learned it's much easier for us when we're not sharing space. It was entirely on her side, though, I was doing nothing to trigger this, which we confirmed in discussion. I wasn't being passive aggressive. It was the most innocent passing conversational comments that I would never have thought could be even interpreted as requests, but it's how she is conditioned to receive. So she needs to and wants to work on it (and has been in therapy to do so). Imagine how hard that would be if I was a romantic attachment figure. The stakes, and the projection onto the partner from unresolved past issues, are both higher. Your ex laying a boundary down for herself in this way isn't because you caused her to. It's something she's working on and isn't ready to deal with in a relationship quite yet, she's not there yet. Thank you for that, it's a good example. I guess it just feels problematic to consider it a "her" problem when I see trends in my own past. When you confirmed that you hadn't done anything to trigger this, did you worry at all that she wouldn't tell you if you had since that might upset you? I realize it's a somewhat pointless question. If you ask someone if you made their coffee alright and they say "yes" despite hating it, it really isn't your fault if they suffer through drinking it. Taking someone's words at face value is better than reading into everything, for sure. It just gets a bit more complicated when you get into why someone might not communicate openly about relationship dynamics, and I just hate the thought of unknowingly being a part of that while potentially repeating similar behaviours. That may just be the internalized shame talking, though. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 4:37:42 GMT
If you know you have an alcohol dependency problem, to me it seems a little entitled of you to expect to abuse alcohol in the relationship until she addresses it and asks for change. That's what I'm getting from your last comments, is that you maybe feel you should have been given a chance.
You had a chance though. It's not on her to point out that your drinking is a problem. I think she showed a lot of strength and wisdom to not hang around and wait for change--- that would be the codependent thing to do. She recognized that her role in the relationship was unhealthy and took ownership of that, and took care of herself.
The problem is, as I see it, you didn't take leadership in your own problematic drinking. Alcohol dependence creates dysfunction in a relationship and you surely must have had a sense of that, having been in counseling as long as you have? It might be that you somehow hope for someone to rescue or help or motivate or inspire you... someone codependent? It would be much healthier to just get your self squared away and establish a firm foundation of healthy coping and sober living, so no one needs to hope you'll change, and no one needs to ask you to change. That's your responsibility to a relationship, actually- have that handled before you enter one. I think people who abuse alcohol minimize the impact it has on others. You don't have to be a sloppy, mean drunk to be a partner who isn't present, isn't emotionally available (how can you be if you alter your mind regularly?) and who isn't healthy. With more sobriety under your belt you might be able to appreciate the difficulty of really connecting with someone reliably when they have a drinking problem.
A month of sobriety is a great start, but most recovery programs recommend a year of sobriety before trying to get into a relationship. There's a lot to do to move from alcohol dependency to sobriety through the ups and downs. Kudos to you for beginning!
Best of luck!
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Nov 27, 2021 5:51:08 GMT
Thank you for that, it's a good example. I guess it just feels problematic to consider it a "her" problem when I see trends in my own past. When you confirmed that you hadn't done anything to trigger this, did you worry at all that she wouldn't tell you if you had since that might upset you? I realize it's a somewhat pointless question. If you ask someone if you made their coffee alright and they say "yes" despite hating it, it really isn't your fault if they suffer through drinking it. The entire dynamic of the relationship is on both of you creating it together. Her having an issue with codependence doesn't mean everything involved is a her problem. People do tend to attract and be attracted to others in a similar mindset (which might be "opposite" sides of the same coin but the pieces fit together). And you're right that if you have your own co-dependent patterns then your relationship will probably continue to reflect it until you've handled it on your end. As @introvert was getting at, I'm encouraging you to try to see your individual side, her individual side as something totally separate and boundaried, and then how that interacts together to create the dynamic. Since you are trying to fully understand what happened, if you worked through all your codependency issues, but she hasn't worked through all of hers yet (or vice versa) then it won't matter. And, of course, those weren't the only issues at play, but it is still a big one that she recognizes she needs more time to figure out on her own. I suspect that would be true no matter who her partner is. In understanding that, it helps explain why it's a little futile to put too much focus on her and the future what ifs. Yes, the codependence on both sides fits in with your past pattern, and it will be important for you to address within yourself. But understanding the precise details and trying to analyze what she thought maybe was co-dependent that you could address piece by piece as you process the breakup isn't the important takeaway. The takeaway is that there was yet another partner who fit into your pattern, so that pattern is a surface level symptom of something deeper and unrelated to the specific person (beyond their willingness to fall into that dynamic). Which, I'm sure, is also tied into the times you've sought relief through alcohol (another more surface level symptom of the something deeper). But to answer your question, I've been friends with my friend for so long that we've talked through our separate attachment and emotional struggles for a long time and know where the other person is at with them. She knows I've earned secure from AP through a ton of work plus she's been in therapy for a long time and done work on herself, so in our specific situation, there's a lot of reasons she would have an honest conversation with me about the codependency thing, even if it's a little difficult to be vulnerable about it (and I'm the one who had to bring it up, I'm not sure she even realized it was happening). If I were a romantic partner or if she was an unaware FA, then there's a much higher chance she wouldn't have been able to be honest. Due either to lack of self awareness or due to fear and defense mechanisms kicking in. I've had plenty of (male) unaware avoidant partners people-please and not communicate. |
|
|
|
Post by spaghetti on Nov 27, 2021 6:34:05 GMT
If you know you have an alcohol dependency problem, to me it seems a little entitled of you to expect to abuse alcohol in the relationship until she addresses it and asks for change. That's what I'm getting from your last comments, is that you maybe feel you should have been given a chance. You had a chance though. It's not on her to point out that your drinking is a problem. I think she showed a lot of strength and wisdom to not hang around and wait for change--- that would be the codependent thing to do. She recognized that her role in the relationship was unhealthy and took ownership of that, and took care of herself. The problem is, as I see it, you didn't take leadership in your own problematic drinking. Alcohol dependence creates dysfunction in a relationship and you surely must have had a sense of that, having been in counseling as long as you have? It might be that you somehow hope for someone to rescue or help or motivate or inspire you... someone codependent? It would be much healthier to just get your self squared away and establish a firm foundation of healthy coping and sober living, so no one needs to hope you'll change, and no one needs to ask you to change. That's your responsibility to a relationship, actually- have that handled before you enter one. I think people who abuse alcohol minimize the impact it has on others. You don't have to be a sloppy, mean drunk to be a partner who isn't present, isn't emotionally available (how can you be if you alter your mind regularly?) and who isn't healthy. With more sobriety under your belt you might be able to appreciate the difficulty of really connecting with someone reliably when they have a drinking problem. A month of sobriety is a great start, but most recovery programs recommend a year of sobriety before trying to get into a relationship. There's a lot to do to move from alcohol dependency to sobriety through the ups and downs. Kudos to you for beginning! Best of luck! That's a fair way to interpret things, especially given the way I glossed over it. I will keep your response in mind as I process things. I agree that it took strength not to hang around for change, but I wouldn't say I was hoping for someone to rescue me or motivate me to stop so much as overlooking the possibility of someone trying. It's not a valid excuse, but it wasn't hard to minimize my own issues with drinking (especially compared to other changes I could make to improve my situation) given the stage of life I was in as it developed; I only finished my degree a year and a half ago, having been working in a "creative" field for years that up until recently involved a lot of unpaid overtime, and used it as a crutch. When my ADHD meds wore off at night, it was really difficult to maintain motivation to keep up with everything I needed to get done, so for a few years I filled that evening gap with some drinks, often in the company of others doing the same. I will admit that I chose to ignore the problem and saw it as a lesser issue, excusing it based on recurring feedback that I "wasn't a different person" when I was drinking, just "more relaxed", and that I used convenient excuses to normalize my behaviour. That is on me. I had my own motivations to work on it, but you're right - I didn't make it a priority because I did minimize the effect it had on others since I wasn't a "sloppy, mean drunk". I didn't make changes in that department because I was broken up and wanted to show I'd changed, but conversations during the break-up did reframe my thinking about what I was doing to myself and others. That wasn't a discussion I'd had with anyone before, and I think most people either go through some sort of change of perspective or make a significant mistake before deciding to make a change like that. To be more specific, I ended up stopping because I sat down by myself and listed what I didn't think were "healthy" reasons I was continuing to drink (versus the more normalized societal pressures in your 20s to feel included in your social circles), made some commitments to myself to cut back and change my behaviour. Days later I realized I'd stopped entirely, it felt good for me, and I continued on that path while seeking professional support. I don't feel entitled to being given a chance, nor do I believe it was her responsibility to ask for change, but I am still grieving the loss of that potential? I know that suggesting someone change their behaviour when it comes to substance use is both risky and not likely to result in meaningful change, so I understand why that wasn't brought up. I don't think many people clear out all of their baggage before allowing themselves to start any relationship, but I try to be open about where I'm at before starting one and to encourage communication throughout. As important as it is to work on yourself, so too is learning to navigate relationships through challenges. If it helps clarify anything, the conversation surrounding the break-up didn't revolve around this one issue so much as it being one of the things I realized needed work (and to be made a higher priority) to be a healthier person and to be able to work on myself. I didn't opt to write out a summary of several hours of conversation and mostly highlighted what I felt I could take accountability for, so I understand why this has turned into a key point, but my reason for posting was that her main intentions were unclear to me. I could come up with a hundred reasons to take the blame for it, and perhaps this was indeed the main reason, but the overnight shift from "all in" to full disappearance would still be confusing to me. I'm not angry, I'm just trying to understand different ways of caring about someone (or not) and how to be respectful of that. I appreciate the perspective offered so far. Thanks for the help. |
|
|
|
Post by spaghetti on Nov 27, 2021 6:54:26 GMT
Thank you for that, it's a good example. I guess it just feels problematic to consider it a "her" problem when I see trends in my own past. When you confirmed that you hadn't done anything to trigger this, did you worry at all that she wouldn't tell you if you had since that might upset you? I realize it's a somewhat pointless question. If you ask someone if you made their coffee alright and they say "yes" despite hating it, it really isn't your fault if they suffer through drinking it. The entire dynamic of the relationship is on both of you creating it together. Her having an issue with codependence doesn't mean everything involved is a her problem. People do tend to attract and be attracted to others in a similar mindset (which might be "opposite" sides of the same coin but the pieces fit together). And you're right that if you have your own co-dependent patterns then your relationship will probably continue to reflect it until you've handled it on your end. As @introvert was getting at, I'm encouraging you to try to see your individual side, her individual side as something totally separate and boundaried, and then how that interacts together to create the dynamic. Since you are trying to fully understand what happened, if you worked through all your codependency issues, but she hasn't worked through all of hers yet (or vice versa) then it won't matter. And, of course, those weren't the only issues at play, but it is still a big one that she recognizes she needs more time to figure out on her own. I suspect that would be true no matter who her partner is. In understanding that, it helps explain why it's a little futile to put too much focus on her and the future what ifs. Yes, the codependence on both sides fits in with your past pattern, and it will be important for you to address within yourself. But understanding the precise details and trying to analyze what she thought maybe was co-dependent that you could address piece by piece as you process the breakup isn't the important takeaway. The takeaway is that there was yet another partner who fit into your pattern, so that pattern is a surface level symptom of something deeper and unrelated to the specific person (beyond their willingness to fall into that dynamic). Which, I'm sure, is also tied into the times you've sought relief through alcohol (another more surface level symptom of the something deeper). But to answer your question, I've been friends with my friend for so long that we've talked through our separate attachment and emotional struggles for a long time and know where the other person is at with them. She knows I've earned secure from AP through a ton of work plus she's been in therapy for a long time and done work on herself, so in our specific situation, there's a lot of reasons she would have an honest conversation with me about the codependency thing, even if it's a little difficult to be vulnerable about it (and I'm the one who had to bring it up, I'm not sure she even realized it was happening). If I were a romantic partner or if she was an unaware FA, then there's a much higher chance she wouldn't have been able to be honest. Due either to lack of self awareness or due to fear and defense mechanisms kicking in. I've had plenty of (male) unaware avoidant partners people-please and not communicate. Thanks for clarifying. I didn't mean to imply I believed it was either "all her" or "all me", and my intent is to better understand her individual side. This discussion has been helpful with that. I am not used to having relationships that seem to lack significant conflict, so this one just puzzles me a bit as it did break from my pattern. "Serious" conversations never escalated and there was plenty of validation (without necessarily agreeing) etc. Problem-solving wasn't a daunting task, there wasn't a "chase" dynamic, and we could both recognize our own responses to things and talk about it. That's why it was surprising and has me wondering what was going on behind the scenes and for how long, or if it really was a sudden change. Because it does stray from my pattern in that way, I just want to better understand it. Discussing it like this seemed like a good way to avoid filling in too many blanks myself, so thanks again. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 27, 2021 17:37:13 GMT
Hi spaghetti….my last boyfriend was different from my pattern and that relationship and specifically the break up is what brought me here. Initially I had a LOT of questions about B….but over time I have changed from looking at his behaviors to looking at my own…what drew me to him? What behaviors and reactions did I display? Also….I just want to make a comment about the “me” and “her” distinction….Oftentimes, I think someone with an AP attachment is so used to being other focused and enmeshed with a parent (or parents) that where I end and you begin becomes blurred. I don’t know what therapy you are in…but I have been seeing a therapist who specializes in Somatic Experiencing….which looks to address trauma that is stored in the body. I canhonestly say I was very numb to my body (very aware of my emotions) and as a result….I really did not physically know where I ended. If you have struggles with alcohol…..you also may be very numb to your body and the trauma that is stored in it. Having a somatic experiencing therapist may aid you in your journey. |
|
|
|
Post by spaghetti on Nov 29, 2021 3:30:15 GMT
Hi spaghetti ….my last boyfriend was different from my pattern and that relationship and specifically the break up is what brought me here. Initially I had a LOT of questions about B….but over time I have changed from looking at his behaviors to looking at my own…what drew me to him? What behaviors and reactions did I display? Also….I just want to make a comment about the “me” and “her” distinction….Oftentimes, I think someone with an AP attachment is so used to being other focused and enmeshed with a parent (or parents) that where I end and you begin becomes blurred. I don’t know what therapy you are in…but I have been seeing a therapist who specializes in Somatic Experiencing….which looks to address trauma that is stored in the body. I canhonestly say I was very numb to my body (very aware of my emotions) and as a result….I really did not physically know where I ended. If you have struggles with alcohol…..you also may be very numb to your body and the trauma that is stored in it. Having a somatic experiencing therapist may aid you in your journey. Thanks, tnr9. That's encouraging - I just found a new therapist who combines several approaches including attachment-based, DBT, and somatic! My earlier therapy was largely CBT focused, and I eventually hit a wall with that. Recognizing thought patterns and such wasn't really the issue anymore, and being able to recognize my own patterns etc would often lead to getting "stuck" with later therapists in the sense that they'd pat me on the back for knowing what my own issues were, but couldn't help much beyond that. I did a lot of work on communication, learning how to better validate others and my own experiences, and navigate conflict/criticism between therapists, but really struggled to find anyone in my area or covered by my previous employer's health plan with a more suitable approach. What I've started this past month seems a lot more helpful so far and has already allowed me to start taking things I'd worked on previously and expand on them into more actionable solutions, so I'm optimistic. The body part is interesting, for sure. I went through a pretty awful time leading up to and early on in the pandemic which ended up being a bit of a perfect storm for complex trauma. My emotions and any physical signs of having them were made into a huge issue I'd be punished for, which made me desperate to hide them at any cost so they wouldn't be perceived as a manipulation tactic. For a while following that period, I really was out of touch with my body and had to fight the feeling that I was essentially just living a simulation (living and working alone in the same space that a lot of awful events had occurred in became kind of surreal). I hadn't been fully aware of how bad it had gotten, to be honest, because I spent so many months isolated during lockdown and didn't really have anywhere to go anyway when my space happened to be the trigger. Over the last year, I was able to experience the shift between experiencing derealization as a survival strategy to it being a rather inconvenient, unnecessary, and problematic symptom of something that was no longer a threat. That is thanks in part to having a trauma-informed partner (with similar experiences) who didn't trigger it or react defensively when it would happen. Basically, I found it was easier to grab hold of reality first through recognizing another person I felt safe with and then rolling that awareness into coming back into myself, too. As far as "not knowing where someone else ended and I began" goes, it was almost more like finding where someone else ended and I began became a tool to ground myself (for better or worse) and was probably the fastest way to return to earth and be present again? The shitty thing wasn't that I couldn't figure out why it would happen, just that I didn't have a more effective way to prevent or overcome it that didn't involve another person's presence or unhealthy coping strategies. Needing someone else in that way made me feel guilty, and her realizing how helpful it was probably opened a big space for "helping" - this would have especially been the case more recently as some external stressors came up. Drinking was a way for me to keep my nervous system cooled off enough to keep dissociative symptoms from flaring up and it felt less "numb" by comparison, but I definitely should have recognized earlier that it was no longer a "helpful" or "necessary" substitute and rather hindered further progress. A better approach to trying to eliminate the symptoms that made me feel guilty/needy by drinking would have been communicating that I had to manage them on my own and would ask for help if I really needed it. That's more of a "next time" than an "if only" and part of why I decided that a challenging time was a good time to quit drinking. Since stopping, I've definitely put more effort into being mindful of my body's responses and doing what's necessary to make space to manage them rather than attempting to numb it out to keep up some facade. I've had to work on safety plans for dissociative episodes and tools to prevent them in various situations, but that's been going pretty well so far considering. Hopefully the new therapy approach will help! Thanks again. |
|
|
|
Post by spaghetti on Jan 17, 2022 3:52:16 GMT
I want to thank everyone here again for your perspective, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to post an update. I'd also appreciate any insight to the questions at the end of this post. tnr9 had some great advice as far as therapy goes - I've been going pretty much every week since and have felt a significant difference. I've been doing some reading on these approaches as well and I'm no longer struggling with panic attacks, I can focus better at work, and I'm less afraid of something setting off my anxiety. Pretty massive difference in my ability to self-regulate and self-validate, so thanks! alexandra really helped me reframe my thinking as far as codependency goes. While I was thinking about my ex's side of things, I was doing so from a place of shame and guilt. I can't say I've entirely stopped doing that but I think I've at least drawn a better line between what each of us is dealing with. This helped me focus more on what I actually have control over and to get through a difficult time knowing I'm doing what I can about those things for my own good. As far as my personal situation goes beyond that, I've now been sober for about ten weeks and am still going to group meetings. Getting through the holidays and such meant confronting a lot of things I'd been pushing down, so it was painful but beneficial to my healing. I've stuck to "no contact" out of respect, the one exception being reaching out in late November after finding a personal item that I thought my ex would want back as soon as possible. Her responses were hard to read, and while I managed not act on any of my anxiety, sorting it out seemed more difficult than it needed to be and wasn't great on my self-esteem. It wasn't that she was cruel or anything; the conversation kept to the logistics, but I'd offer options to get the item and be left on read for 24hrs before receiving a request when it was too late for me to work around it. It just felt like I was having a detachment tactic used on me and couldn't see why that would be necessary. I can thank this forum's input for helping me keep in mind that it may have nothing to do with me, but it also doesn't feel great to think someone you care about isn't considering how their seemingly arbitrary choices affect you logistically or emotionally. It's kind of a flip-flop between feeling villainized or at the other end of selfish behaviour. I felt a bit stuck, not wanting to seem "difficult" but also not wanting to bend my life around someone who was refusing to communicate about pure logistics for her own benefit. That matter was finally sorted out and I opted not to reach out again about anything I found - she had several reasons to contact me eventually so I figured it wasn't worth the energy until then. Ultimately, she's left me with a bunch of loose ends from living together and sharing so much of our lives but seemingly no good way to tie them off myself. Keeping "her" separate from "me" is hard in situations where what one of us does affects the other, so it's difficult not to feel like I'm being strung along in a way since everything is on her terms. This hasn't had the best effect on my mental health overall and unfortunately, my therapist and I reached the conclusion that I really don't have control over some things that I should in this situation. The only things I could really do to take control over those areas of my life would do more harm than good. There are friendships I'm hoping not to lose through this, and it would take as much time and energy to sort out some of the logistics myself as it would to continue waiting on her to feel ready to talk. Many of the potential "solutions" that don't require any communication would require me to prioritize what I think she'd want at my own expense, making decisions that would likely seem selfish or retaliatory, or taking on unnecessary complications to find some "fair" outcome. I don't want to be impatient if she has good intentions and just needs time, but I obviously can't be tip-toeing around someone else's walls indefinitely. She reached out to me a couple weeks ago to ask if I could look for something, and I let her know when I eventually did. I waited to see if it was an excuse to have a discussion since it had now been a couple of months since the break-up, but that didn't end up being the case. After a lot of consideration, I opted to take the opportunity to respectfully say that I hoped she was still considering a time to talk - that I was trying to be mindful of potential boundaries, but still wasn't clear on how much time she needed (or what she thought this conversation she'd suggested we have "in a few months" would look like) and that it just wasn't something I wanted to get lost in miscommunication if she no longer had that intention. I wasn't specific about what I wanted to discuss (I literally just said "talk") because I honestly don't know what she's hoping will come from it, but I'd still benefit whether I just get to tie off loose ends, gain some understanding, get on more friendly terms, or have a chance to re-evaluate the relationship. She thanked me for being clear but didn't elaborate on much - she said that she still wasn't in a place to have a productive conversation about our relationship and that she would reach out in another two months to make that plan. I checked in as to whether or not I'd done or was doing anything to upset her - she replied that she wasn't upset with me and I hadn't done anything and it was just about her own needs/boundaries, so I left the conversation at that. I actually felt okay about that, aside from feeling a little frustrated that I was the one being held back with this stuff for what will be four months without an explanation for why it was necessary. About a week later though, my friend told me that my ex had viewed a photo of she'd posted of us and then immediately removed me and everyone associated with me from that social media platform. My ex had a fairly solid relationship with my friends, she had apparently seen photos with me in them since the break-up and no one had tried to cut ties over the last two months, and it just seemed out of character. The only thing that changed really was setting a timeline for a discussion and me not responding (to a message that didn't need one) for several days. I know no one can mind-read so it is what it is, but my friends noted some other public signs of her feeling upset about the relationship. I know it could have just been an impulsive emotional reaction, trying to detach before our conversation, trying to protect herself, or genuinely just moving on. I only mention it because she originally said she wanted us to be in each other's lives (not her specific phrasing) but had to be realistic about how much time she would need (suggested 4-6 mo but might check in after 1), and cutting those ties doesn't seem like the best way to get there if she just meant she hoped for friendship down the road. Her own friends haven't cut ties with me either, and they've asked how I'm doing a number of times and said they'd like to hang out once the "dust settles". I almost feel more like the one doing the rejecting than the one who was left behind, you know? I don't want to lose out on other friendships if I just put an end to this myself (though that isn't really what I want, either) but I'm not sure how to proceed if two more months come and go and it just gets put off. I also don't see what she stands to gain from setting that specific timeline if she just feels she owes me a debrief or something, and leaving me stuck with logistics this long seems a bit unfair if there's no desire to talk about other things. I'm not sure what's expected to change in two more months. I'm willing to be be patient if this is part of a process, but I need to be respecting my own needs, too, and don't want to be used as practice setting boundaries if that's the only value in dragging this out. "Healthy boundaries" aren't usually inflexible, poorly communicated, or intended to control others behaviour and prevent them from solving their own problems, so I'm not sure if the word "boundaries" is just being used as an excuse to avoid accountability/confrontation because she knows I wouldn't want to cross them. Does anyone with more experience with attachment theory see a point to keeping ties to someone while avoiding them like this? Is there any motivation to delay potential conflict to a specific time versus get it out of the way or avoid it altogether? If you were sure you wanted to remove someone from your life permanently, why keep excuses to have to talk to them in the future? If someone was working towards earning secure, would trying to put more challenging relationships "on hold" while distancing from them to work on yourself seem like an alternative to losing someone permanently? Or does this seem totally unrelated? I realize that it could have more to do with the drinking history or outside influence. I hope I'll eventually get to understand what's currently happening. Thanks! |
|
