Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2022 22:35:46 GMT
I'm having a problem with all the quotes and replying. I just found out yesterday that he doesn't do holidays. I am not opposed to talking to him but I think he's over saturated with the convo. He also doesn't want to meet my needs unless they are his needs - so no middle ground.
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Dec 13, 2022 23:29:22 GMT
I’m an FA who is very haltingly moving towards secure. I’ve just knowingly chosen being a lonely old man as opposed to the thin edge of the wedge in needs that you’ve presented. Everything about Christmas is extraordinarily anxiety producing for me and I’d just rather not. I’ll never be railroaded into making compromises when I’ve put it out there from the beginning. Where does this leave me? Somewhat sad with what needs to happen internally from here. Sad that I have to accept the reality (that I’ve always known) that I cannot give somebody what they want. I don’t want them contorting and suppressing their needs. That’s not fair. But trying to make me conform? That’s not fair either.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 0:45:19 GMT
Did you ask him how he feels and what is important to him arounthe holidays? If his family is very different from yours,and he is avoidant, it may well be that the holidays are uncomfortable for him and that he dislikes making anything of them. When my partner and I were getting g to know each other we discussed that and agreed on how we would spend our holidays. Neither of us is religious, neither of us enjoy the hubbub, we think it's kind of ridiculous in a few ways so we don't really acknowledge them except to take care of our kids and what makes them feel content. I count it a huge relief to be done with any traditions. I come from the avoidant end of the spectrum. The holidays are a big deal to a lot of people, but some like to celebrate and some prefer to avoid them. They can be a big deal in unpleasant ways. Some associate the holidays with things they want to put behind them. Good point. He doesn't want to do them. I just learned this yesterday. I do. I would like there to be a middle ground.Maybe one we do and won't we don't. I'm now scared to even bring up the subject b/c he was so uncomfortable yesterday. I don't think he will compromise. He said "if you want xmas go out and do it." with who? I have no one and I want to be with him. (more continued in next post. having trouble with this one - too many "quotes") It's unfortunate that you didn't explore what's important to him around the holidays and made some assumptions (that he celebrates or is ok with it). Now you know, he doesn't want to. He's got a lifetime of reasons before you for his choice, and it's important enough for him to stand his ground so good for him. Compromise is NOT something reasonable to expect if it involves disregarding a person's deeply held values or beliefs. Holidays qualify. As far as I can see people generally have convictions around what they need concerning holidays and no one has a right to impose their traditions on anyone. If it were a matter of both of you celebrate but you don't agree exactly how or where, compromise can be found. But in the case of NOT celebrating at all for personal reasons, and celebrating... well there you have an incompatibility. Compromise shouldn't have anyone abandoning themselves. Where to eat, what the budget is, etc... that's negotiable. Whether or not to celebrate a holiday isn't, because of the personal histories involved. Some people have a lot of trauma around holidays! Why expect them to do what you want instead of what they want, considering the nature of avoidant attachment and how it comes to be? Who doesn't either cherish or loathe something about a family tradition? It's off limits to expect someone to do what they don't want to do around that kind of thing.
|
|
Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 14, 2022 2:35:43 GMT
I’m an FA who is very haltingly moving towards secure. I’ve just knowingly chosen being a lonely old man as opposed to the thin edge of the wedge in needs that you’ve presented. Everything about Christmas is extraordinarily anxiety producing for me and I’d just rather not. I’ll never be railroaded into making compromises when I’ve put it out there from the beginning. Where does this leave me? Somewhat sad with what needs to happen internally from here. Sad that I have to accept the reality (that I’ve always known) that I cannot give somebody what they want. I don’t want them contorting and suppressing their needs. That’s not fair. But trying to make me conform? That’s not fair either. Thanks for sharing. I just learned all this yesterday. He never told me any of this until yesterday. So I was not trying to make him conform. I said it was important to ME and I expressed why. I did not tell him he had to participate. What has been confusing is the whole time I have known him he has given his kids and grands xmas gifts and they to him so I assumed he did xmas. He never said otherwise until yesterday.
|
|
Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 14, 2022 2:36:42 GMT
Good point. He doesn't want to do them. I just learned this yesterday. I do. I would like there to be a middle ground.Maybe one we do and won't we don't. I'm now scared to even bring up the subject b/c he was so uncomfortable yesterday. I don't think he will compromise. He said "if you want xmas go out and do it." with who? I have no one and I want to be with him. (more continued in next post. having trouble with this one - too many "quotes") It's unfortunate that you didn't explore what's important to him around the holidays and made some assumptions (that he celebrates or is ok with it). Now you know, he doesn't want to. He's got a lifetime of reasons before you for his choice, and it's important enough for him to stand his ground so good for him. Compromise is NOT something reasonable to expect if it involves disregarding a person's deeply held values or beliefs. Holidays qualify. As far as I can see people generally have convictions around what they need concerning holidays and no one has a right to impose their traditions on anyone. If it were a matter of both of you celebrate but you don't agree exactly how or where, compromise can be found. But in the case of NOT celebrating at all for personal reasons, and celebrating... well there you have an incompatibility. Compromise shouldn't have anyone abandoning themselves. Where to eat, what the budget is, etc... that's negotiable. Whether or not to celebrate a holiday isn't, because of the personal histories involved. Some people have a lot of trauma around holidays! Why expect them to do what you want instead of what they want, considering the nature of avoidant attachment and how it comes to be? Who doesn't either cherish or loathe something about a family tradition? It's off limits to expect someone to do what they don't want to do around that kind of thing.
|
|
Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 14, 2022 2:41:30 GMT
I did not assume he wanted to do holidays. I am not asking him to abandon himself. That's an extreme statement. For years he commented that he exchanged with his kids and grandkids so I thought he "did" Christmas. Here we are in the 11th hour of Christmas. He tells me now, after everything is bought and paid for (unable to be returned) and wrapped. I have trauma around the holiday myself which I have shared with him. It isn't fair to assume I should have talked to him about this when for YEARS I was aware he exchanged with kids. If he has an issue around why he doesn't want to do it, an explanation would help me understand. It isn't fair to expect me to understand when nothing is being explained.
The most frustrating thing is everything is on HIS terms. Everything. I can't do xmas, my birthday, see him as much as I would like etc. THAT is not fair. We have a long history together as friends and a deep connection. That is the only reason I am trying to find a way to make this work.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 2:57:05 GMT
I did not assume he wanted to do holidays #1.I am not asking him to abandon himself. That's an extreme statement. For years he commented that he exchanged with his kids and grandkids so I thought he "did" Christmas. Here we are in the 11th hour of Christmas. He tells me now, after everything is bought and paid for (unable to be returned) and wrapped. I have trauma around the holiday myself which I have shared with him. It isn't fair to assume I should have talked to him about this when for YEARS I was aware he exchanged with kids. If he has an issue around why he doesn't want to do it, an explanation would help me understand. It isn't fair to expect me to understand when nothing is being explained. The most frustrating this is everything is on HIS terms. Everything. I can't do xmas, my birthday, see him as much as I would like etc. THAT is not fair. We have a long history together as friends and a deep connection. That is the only reason I am trying to find a way to make this work. Okay, I can't give you the kind of feedback you are looking for, we clearly don't agree on what is reasonable here and that's ok. I think you are unreasonable to seek the relationship you want from someone who doesn't want the same. I don't believe you are on the cusp of secure for that reason, but there is no need to argue that either because in the end what I think doesn't really matter. You claim to know the attachment styles and yet are here complaining that you can't get what you want from an avoidant, when the very definition of avoidant in relationships is one who avoids intimacy and reciprocity in relationships. I don't think you can find advice for remedying your situation here, except what has already been said. But I do wish you success ultimately in figuring things out for yourself.
|
|
Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 14, 2022 3:05:23 GMT
Dear introvert, I am not sure why I am not being reasonable. An avoidant can be kind, loving, come close to you but usually creates distance after that (at least he does). They need alot of space. Avoiding reciprocity - that's new to me. He has been reciprocal in ways that are different than me, but reciprocal nonetheless. He wants a relationship - not sure why you think he doesn't. His idea of a relationship is different than mine. But he wants one nonetheless. We actually have one. www.lifehack.org/794659/avoidant-attachment
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 3:17:05 GMT
Dear introvert, I am not sure why I am not being reasonable. An avoidant can be kind, loving, come close to you but usually creates distance after that (at least he does). They need alot of space. Avoiding reciprocity - that's new to me. He has been reciprocal in ways that are different than me, but reciprocal nonetheless. He wants a relationship - not sure why you think he doesn't. His idea of a relationship is different than mine. But he wants one nonetheless. We actually have one. I said he doesn't want the same, not that he doesn't want a relationship. He doesn't want the same things. You just made posts about him needing things on his terms, I will quote that for you and let you see why from what you yourself describe he is avoiding reciprocity. You said something about one sided as well, that indicates that you feel a lack of reciprocity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 3:18:27 GMT
I'm having a problem with all the quotes and replying. I just found out yesterday that he doesn't do holidays. I am not opposed to talking to him but I think he's over saturated with the convo. He also doesn't want to meet my needs unless they are his needs - so no middle ground. "He doesn't want to meet my needs unless they are his needs" That is not reciprocity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 3:20:14 GMT
I did not assume he wanted to do holidays. I am not asking him to abandon himself. That's an extreme statement. For years he commented that he exchanged with his kids and grandkids so I thought he "did" Christmas. Here we are in the 11th hour of Christmas. He tells me now, after everything is bought and paid for (unable to be returned) and wrapped. I have trauma around the holiday myself which I have shared with him. It isn't fair to assume I should have talked to him about this when for YEARS I was aware he exchanged with kids. If he has an issue around why he doesn't want to do it, an explanation would help me understand. It isn't fair to expect me to understand when nothing is being explained. The most frustrating thing is everything is on HIS terms. Everything. I can't do xmas, my birthday, see him as much as I would like etc. THAT is not fair. We have a long history together as friends and a deep connection. That is the only reason I am trying to find a way to make this work. "The most frustrating thing is everything is on HIS terms. Everything." How can an avoidant's avoidance of reciprocity be new to you? Unaware avoidants don't do healthy interdependence.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 3:23:44 GMT
That's the best I can do to explain why I don't think you are reasonable to try to get the relationship you want from someone you say is avoidant (so much so that he behaves like he is involved with someone else but isn't, he's THAT avoidant, according to you.)
Maybe take a moment to read what you have written here, so you can understand why someone might challenge your position? It's not something that is upsetting to me as I am not in your position. But I truly think you should step back and examine your expectations to see if you really think they are reasonable?
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Dec 14, 2022 3:34:49 GMT
The other thing also is exchanging of presents isn’t exactly “doing Christmas”. I love cold ham sandwiches two days later (it’s hot over Christmas here), but I really don’t want to be sharing a lunch table and having to be happy, then a dinner table with another lot and feign happiness. I spent years being married doing things like that, that I really didn’t want yo do. That was compromise that I don’t want to make again. It just comes with consequences.
|
|
Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 14, 2022 3:37:10 GMT
That's the best I can do to explain why I don't think you are reasonable to try to get the relationship you want from someone you say is avoidant (so much so that he behaves like he is involved with someone else but isn't, he's THAT avoidant, according to you.) Maybe take a moment to read what you have written here, so you can understand why someone might challenge your position? It's not something that is upsetting to me as I am not in your position. But I truly think you should step back and examine your expectations to see if you really think they are reasonable? Hello again. I know what I wrote. It's confusing to me why the shock of just learning this after YEARS of knowing each other is not understandable. He ebbs and flows. 4-6 months of emotional/physical reciprocity followed by the push away. I know that is classic. I have not written the entire details of our relationship in this forum b/c It is on the internet. I have focused on one upsetting aspect that just happened to me without warning. He can be reciprocal. Has been for years. Never experienced the lack until now. He seemed like someone just moving as a slower pace but things in general have been moving forward.
|
|
Lee
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Lee on Dec 14, 2022 3:41:21 GMT
The other thing also is exchanging of presents isn’t exactly “doing Christmas”. I love cold ham sandwiches two days later (it’s hot over Christmas here), but I really don’t want to be sharing a lunch table and having to be happy, then a dinner table with another lot and feign happiness. I spent years being married doing things like that, that I really didn’t want yo do. That was compromise that I don’t want to make again. It just comes with consequences. Last year he came over, exchanged and hung out, ate and talked. I am not sure what "doing Christmas" is to you but to me it means come over and get your gifts and eat and hang out like we normally do. I don't have a Christmas tree or Christmas music or a Christmas spread. and it isn't on 12/25 that we got together.
|
|