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Post by happydaze on Mar 23, 2023 2:15:53 GMT
I'm FA leaning DA.
Is feeling love radically different for us?
I just broke up with an amazing secure woman who loved me and says she always will.
I miss her dearly. I smile when I think about her. I wish she were here, but I had trouble telling her I loved her.
My acts of service and gifts and physical affection felt like love to me, but when it came to talking about love, I stalled and stuttered.
For her love was black or white. You felt it or you didn't.
I tried to tell her for someone wounded like me with these attachment issues, it was quite gray.
Obviously not the sort of love a secure woman wants, so I get why it ended. She said I probably just wanted a friend and a companion. She said one day I'll know what true love feels like and there won't be any doubt.
I'm getting up there in years so I am beginning to wonder whether I will ever feel this free, generous, safe attachment to someone that I believe others call love.
On the other hand, I read these relationship coaches who claim love is just a choice.
Anybody have any insights here?
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 23, 2023 4:19:02 GMT
I'm curious why you ended it? Was she unhappy with your lack of declarations? I'm curious what her love language was?
Why do you think it's hard for you to use those words?
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Post by alexandra on Mar 23, 2023 4:53:05 GMT
Love is a choice in regards to, you choose to commit to each other every day, and you choose to be stable, vulnerable, open, honest, prioritize them, and not cheat on each other. Love is not feeling overwhelming feelings for someone 24/7 that leave you helpless so you're compelled to commit (for insecure attachers, that's actually your nervous system being triggered). It isn't all encompassing "in love" feelings, because that's simply not sustainable, and it isn't meant to be because it's a big stessor on your body to feel that way always... that's why the honeymoon period or new relationship intensity doesn't last indefinitely at the same level. But you should still be happy sharing your life with that person, and wanting to, in the sense that they become a best friend and partner.
It's really difficult for secure attachers to understand how different it all feels to insecure attachers. For secure attachers, things feel calm, because their nervous systems aren't conditioned the same way, and they don't experience their own emotions primarily through fear and disconnection from self. There isn't confusing doubt, not in self, not in other, nor in the relationship. (Any doubt is straightforward, obvious incompatibility or dealbreakers.) It goes back to insecure attachers needing to stay attached as children with immature emotions to adults who could not meet their needs. But children can't physically survive without them, so you natural adapt to stay connected, to forgive the unforgivable, because your survival depends on it. That dysfunction stays with you as an adult unless you've done conscious self work (often with a therapist) to heal and change it.
If you work through healing, which can take a long time as attachment wounding didn't happen overnight and can't be reversed overnight, then there's more on the other side, past ambivalence, fear, and doubt. But it's a calmer connection that feels so foreign compared to the unhealthy experience of love most insecure attachers grew up with, that it can feel really uncomfortable or even so subtle in comparison to intense feelings that you can't recognize it. It may be hard to even believe it's really going to be there on the other side, and to trust the healing process can even get you there, and that's normal to feel.
So in summary, if you're FA, what you're feeling is normal. And you're at a different life stage than your ex. That doesn't mean you don't love her or she doesn't love you, but it does mean you currently have incompatible needs, and you both currently express and experience your needs and your love differently. There's complicated reasons that lead to all this, but your attachment style and current way of experiencing love isn't set in stone if you're in enough pain to make the decision that you really want to change your life, for yourself and for your own happiness (not for another person). It's not easy, and it sounds so abstract if you haven't experienced it, but getting some help to heal the early life experience stuff is the first step in that direction, if that's what you want.
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Post by happydaze on Mar 23, 2023 5:09:58 GMT
I'm curious why you ended it? Was she unhappy with your lack of declarations? I'm curious what her love language was? Why do you think it's hard for you to use those words? Partly it ended because I never could "latch on" securely, nor discern whether my hesitations or fears were grounded in genuine compatibility questions or attachment issues. This lead to several major push and pull episodes. Interestingly, the compatibility issues were more about fear of future conflict than the issues themselves. I am very conflict averse.
Perhaps even worse, she had to be gone long periods during which I would lose the connection, detach, and stop trusting my feelings. Realizing I was about to hurt her again and repeat the painful pattern, I basically shut it down hard. My cognitive dissonance overwhelmed me. Didn't trust myself anymore or my feelings, and she was so hurt by this last one that she said it was over from her side anyway. She cannot trust me now and told me to go heal.
I don't know what her language is. She did lean a bit anxious so I think that familiar dynamic was happening with us.
If I were to describe the experience of "loving" her, I would love her fully in a little chamber of my heart, but when I was faced with the bald reality of face-to-face intimacy and vulnerability, the other parts of me would throw up defenses and muffle the love I felt. When the threats were past, or she was away, I could safely feel it again and was quite enamored at times.
As for why it's hard for me to use loving words, I have been this way since I can remember even with my family and children. Those words are keys to opening a gate, but for me that gate means being engulfed, losing myself, and having to take care of someone. I know the family origins of this, but I have yet to find a practical method to undo this and rewire myself.
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Post by introvert on Mar 23, 2023 14:21:21 GMT
I'm from the avoidant end... consistency is extremely important for anyone coming from an insecure attachment origin, not any less so for avoidants.
Her absences weren't good for you, or the relationship, it sounds like to me. Some relationships can accommodate that, some can't. I deactivate with long absences as well, and opt not to live that way. It creates incompatibility for me because I thrive with consistency in routines and relationships. Everybody is different, and what you prefer matters. I doubt I would develop "love" vibes in a relationship with long absences. I feel loving feelings most with stability and consistency, that's just how I tick. I don't feel compelled to go against my grain regularly to try to solve that in any way, therefore the right partner for me isn't routinely absent for periods of time, I accept that.
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Post by krolle on Mar 23, 2023 17:28:10 GMT
I'm curious why you ended it? Was she unhappy with your lack of declarations? I'm curious what her love language was? Why do you think it's hard for you to use those words? Partly it ended because I never could "latch on" securely, nor discern whether my hesitations or fears were grounded in genuine compatibility questions or attachment issues. This lead to several major push and pull episodes. Interestingly, the compatibility issues were more about fear of future conflict than the issues themselves. I am very conflict averse.
Perhaps even worse, she had to be gone long periods during which I would lose the connection, detach, and stop trusting my feelings. Realizing I was about to hurt her again and repeat the painful pattern, I basically shut it down hard. My cognitive dissonance overwhelmed me. Didn't trust myself anymore or my feelings, and she was so hurt by this last one that she said it was over from her side anyway. She cannot trust me now and told me to go heal.
I don't know what her language is. She did lean a bit anxious so I think that familiar dynamic was happening with us.
If I were to describe the experience of "loving" her, I would love her fully in a little chamber of my heart, but when I was faced with the bald reality of face-to-face intimacy and vulnerability, the other parts of me would throw up defenses and muffle the love I felt. When the threats were past, or she was away, I could safely feel it again and was quite enamored at times.
As for why it's hard for me to use loving words, I have been this way since I can remember even with my family and children. Those words are keys to opening a gate, but for me that gate means being engulfed, losing myself, and having to take care of someone. I know the family origins of this, but I have yet to find a practical method to undo this and rewire myself.
Was it difficult or unnaceptable for you or your caregivers to demonstrate affection/sentiment when you were young? I know my own aversion to sentiment and displays of affection comes from that. Particularly my dad. I have literally never seen him act sentimental in any way, even toward my mother. And when he would see anybody, say in movies for example, acting in a sentimental way, he would be quick to display scorn. So nowadays I have a lot of difficulty with displays of affection, other than acts of service. For example holding hands in public, or saying I love you. More recently I have become aware of it. But before awareness, too much force in trying to get me to display more affection would result in me feeling angry, or shutting down. I am also conflict averse. |
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Post by happydaze on Mar 24, 2023 13:51:48 GMT
Was it difficult or unnaceptable for you or your caregivers to demonstrate affection/sentiment when you were young? I know my own aversion to sentiment and displays of affection comes from that. Particularly my dad. I have literally never seen him act sentimental in any way, even toward my mother. And when he would see anybody, say in movies for example, acting in a sentimental way, he would be quick to display scorn. So nowadays I have a lot of difficulty with displays of affection, other than acts of service. For example holding hands in public, or saying I love you. More recently I have become aware of it. But before awareness, too much force in trying to get me to display more affection would result in me feeling angry, or shutting down. I am also conflict averse. Actually I had both sides of the coin: my father was not affectionate, though he loved me; but no words. My mother was too involved and I think used me as an emotional surrogate husband for my distant father. By age 10, I felt responsible to take care of both of them.
Still, I think the general feeling is I lose my sense of grounding and boundaries when I feel vulnerable.
The conflict averse problem is huge. It's caused me a lot of trouble in life, including work. The more I fail to communicate in a perceived conflict, the more avoidant I become, and the more anxious because I let it fester. Then I build it into a monster in my imagination. I also tend to catastrophize.
It's obvious there are practical skills I can learn such as conflict resolution, but when I feel threatened, I tend to become robotic amid conflict which my ex wife did not appreciate at all. So learning to be vulnerable without feeling triggered is key.
I'm eager to heal but without a therapist, I'm unsure how to address this stuff in a concrete, transformative way.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 24, 2023 14:20:39 GMT
I'm FA leaning DA.
Is feeling love radically different for us?
I just broke up with an amazing secure woman who loved me and says she always will.
I miss her dearly. I smile when I think about her. I wish she were here, but I had trouble telling her I loved her.
My acts of service and gifts and physical affection felt like love to me, but when it came to talking about love, I stalled and stuttered.
For her love was black or white. You felt it or you didn't.
I tried to tell her for someone wounded like me with these attachment issues, it was quite gray.
Obviously not the sort of love a secure woman wants, so I get why it ended. She said I probably just wanted a friend and a companion. She said one day I'll know what true love feels like and there won't be any doubt.
I'm getting up there in years so I am beginning to wonder whether I will ever feel this free, generous, safe attachment to someone that I believe others call love.
On the other hand, I read these relationship coaches who claim love is just a choice.
Anybody have any insights here?
Perhaps she is secure, but the whole black/white thing can be very AP….I think like this…when I love someone….or experience a deep attachment, I am all in….and I tend to want to stay in that relationship. However, I usually haven’t put in the time to determine whether I am loving the right person for me. And I never got the shades of gray either…but that is because of APleaning and relying heavily on desires, feelings and fantasy. I think you did the right thing….I think you have to go with what is right for you. |
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Post by alexandra on Mar 24, 2023 21:25:08 GMT
happydaze, what you're describing is a childhood history of "enmeshment". I'd start doing some research into that concept and how to heal and overcome its impact. You can also take a look at some of Thais Gibson's videos about fearful avoidant attachment styles. Is there a reason you aren't able to seek therapy?
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Post by krolle on Mar 25, 2023 11:20:19 GMT
Was it difficult or unnaceptable for you or your caregivers to demonstrate affection/sentiment when you were young? I know my own aversion to sentiment and displays of affection comes from that. Particularly my dad. I have literally never seen him act sentimental in any way, even toward my mother. And when he would see anybody, say in movies for example, acting in a sentimental way, he would be quick to display scorn. So nowadays I have a lot of difficulty with displays of affection, other than acts of service. For example holding hands in public, or saying I love you. More recently I have become aware of it. But before awareness, too much force in trying to get me to display more affection would result in me feeling angry, or shutting down. I am also conflict averse. Actually I had both sides of the coin: my father was not affectionate, though he loved me; but no words. My mother was too involved and I think used me as an emotional surrogate husband for my distant father. By age 10, I felt responsible to take care of both of them.
Still, I think the general feeling is I lose my sense of grounding and boundaries when I feel vulnerable.
The conflict averse problem is huge. It's caused me a lot of trouble in life, including work. The more I fail to communicate in a perceived conflict, the more avoidant I become, and the more anxious because I let it fester. Then I build it into a monster in my imagination. I also tend to catastrophize.
It's obvious there are practical skills I can learn such as conflict resolution, but when I feel threatened, I tend to become robotic amid conflict which my ex wife did not appreciate at all. So learning to be vulnerable without feeling triggered is key.
I'm eager to heal but without a therapist, I'm unsure how to address this stuff in a concrete, transformative way.
Yes I had the same, unavailable father, that yes, as you described I'm sure loved me. But very little conscious display of such. Certainly little sentiment. And mother anxious and enmeshed. Can you think of why you have a strong aversion to conflict? I also catastrophize. Do you have an anxious side? im not talking about attachment styles here, more so disposition. Mine has also cost me a lot in relationships, makes work and business life hard. Unfortunately several forms of talk therapy were not succesful for me. Actually the ADHD drugs made me quiet assertive but I'm not sure if that's relevant to your situation. |
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Post by anne12 on Mar 25, 2023 13:29:26 GMT
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Post by happydaze on Mar 25, 2023 16:24:22 GMT
happydaze , what you're describing is a childhood history of "enmeshment". I'd start doing some research into that concept and how to heal and overcome its impact. You can also take a look at some of Thais Gibson's videos about fearful avoidant attachment styles. Is there a reason you aren't able to seek therapy? You are right about enmeshment, and thank you for your prior response helping me recognize how different she may have experienced her love vs understanding mine.
Absurdly high deductible plan has made therapy unaffordable. I did do almost two years of general therapy, though my therapist was not specialized in attachment. We were dialing into enmeshment, however.
Enmeshment is very troubling to work with. On the one hand I had this wonderful, nurturing mother who adored me and only wanted the best for me. On the other hand, my wounded father failed to take me out of the crib and show me the other side of the world. With no other arms to run into where I could catch my breath and discover myself apart from mom, I remember playing for countless hours by myself and feeling a distinct sense of soothing relief.
So mother's nurturing embrace became suffocating. Thus began this enmeshment where formerly wonderful feelings of nurture and loving comfort are polluted later by a blurred sense of identity, lack of boundaries, and overwhelming obligation.
Given my early history and my behavior since, obviously when I attempt to attach in what should be a healthy, safe way, it opens up that tainted pool in me and triggers a flight response. |
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Post by happydaze on Mar 25, 2023 21:22:16 GMT
Those look like very interesting sources. Lots to work with. Thanks for sharing!
I am attracted to very kind and sweet women (feminine agreeableness?) because I feel safe around them.
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Post by happydaze on Mar 25, 2023 21:54:08 GMT
Yes I had the same, unavailable father, that yes, as you described I'm sure loved me. But very little conscious display of such. Certainly little sentiment. And mother anxious and enmeshed. Can you think of why you have a strong aversion to conflict? I also catastrophize. Do you have an anxious side? im not talking about attachment styles here, more so disposition. Mine has also cost me a lot in relationships, makes work and business life hard. Unfortunately several forms of talk therapy were not succesful for me. Actually the ADHD drugs made me quiet assertive but I'm not sure if that's relevant to your situation. I'm surprised how much we have in common. I have ADHD too, diagnosed in my 30s. Adderall slowed down my brain and made things click, but I quickly developed a tolerance with side effects I could not endure.
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Post by anne12 on Mar 27, 2023 13:17:32 GMT
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