chase
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Post by chase on Apr 25, 2023 18:20:03 GMT
Orig post on the DA forum where I figured out I am involved with a FA and I am AP. reading, absorbing all of this is hard, brutal at times, but so worth it all to see the patterns and MY responsibility in it. I do plan on trying to contact a therapist but haven't seen anyone listing attachment theory on their list of specialties-as I try to learn more about myself.
"Introvert" responded to someone else, "My relationships are my responsibility, and how I show up or don't show up in them is my responsibility. Might I be ashamed of how I have shown up in relationship, might I be embarrassed and in pain about that? Sure. What can I do about that shame and embarrassment? I can recognize how I harmed myself and others through my errant beliefs, misguided actions, unresolved emotions, etc, and I can resolve to do better and make sincere effort to learn and grow and recover. That's what I have done, and continue to do. It's a process."
DANG. and Yes.
I kept a small diary for the last year. I have been looking through the cycles and my feelings about being ignored, abandoned, feeling like he is hot or cold, etc. for months. I read things I wrote like "where is my dignity?" "What happens if I don't chase?" (part of my user name) "do I appear needy?" Even though outwardly I cannot remember myself being like this with other partners! Do we change with partners based on their attachment style? I've never dated someone who disappears and is silent before. Maybe this is why I didn't recognize myself acting like this before? Part of why I started the diary, because I felt like I was going crazy. But Introvert is right. How I show up is MY responsibility. How I let him behave towards me are MY boundaries. Lots of work.
Since FA and I had that very frank talk about how I felt anxious when he would disengage, and he said he would be open to getting therapy, there has been very little contact. We met twice since then and the first time he talked about how he always had me on his mind even if he didn't say it or contact me and was very sorry his behavior affected me and how I feel about the relationship. Assured me he has a deep love, believes we will make it (sitting here now I think, Those are just words he is saying). I offered back that I am aware now that my anxious need is MY issue and all I can do is work on knowing myself better and then decide if this is "enough" for me regardless of if he makes significant changes or not. The next time we spent time together it was more chit chat feeling. I felt pretty good and strong about it. Kept myself busy, hobbies. Since then, it's been over 24 hours of no texts back and forth. I haven't sent anything and he doesn't send anything to start a connection. I think he is more reactionary than initiating anyway, but I am not going to chase him in his quiet. Also something I admittedly get anxious about obviously, but I'm new at this. Why text first and then be disappointed about his lack of response. I explained already how I felt. Yet, it's MY responsibility for my feelings about it. I know this. I am doing my best to put it into practice.
Then he makes some cryptic posts on social media which he has done before. It used to make me jump and say "hey, are you ok" My brain immediately said "He MUST be talking about me."
This time, I CAUGHT myself thinking that. Then said to myself, "what evidence do you have that this is about you? None. What story are you telling yourself in your head about this? It could be about anything or anyone in his life. He is still quiet to you but does this on social media? Let him be quiet to you then. Do NOT react." I have not.
I know I am not supposed to dissect his "whys" but WHY are we as a people so interested in knowing why? Why someone will post cryptic things? I suppose this is a sign things aren't going to change much for him while I am here trying to learn about myself. Maybe just a matter of "when" for me?
I mentioned in a post about how we talked about his ex and that could be anther post. He said to me that he didn't love her but she just "never left" and he just settled into a relationship of convenience. But felt he missed out on the chase. He chased me because he wanted me. Attracted to me and liked who I was. I didn't come after him, but I found I liked him so I was receptive. After I was invested in him for a few months is when I noticed the FA behavior. That is when I started the diary I am reading through now. I suppose I still don't need to know his why as I focus on me and don't try to fit myself into his life, but it doesn't make me not want to understand it and how I played into it.
Any thoughts or encouraging words on my journey are always appreciated. Trying to stay strong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2023 23:22:29 GMT
I think you're doing great. As for why does he post cryptic things? Because that's the nature of emotionally ambiguous, insecure people. All of us actually. If you think about it, we are all cryptic until we learn how to assert ourselves. Ask yourself... is how he is, ok with you? Have you hinted or have you told him outright? Without criticizing you, I note that you are sending signals and hoping he figures it out. So, that's not to say he's hoping you will figure him out, who knows what he's thinking. But cryptic communication comes from a place of not being able to clearly articulate what we want and need, let alone being able to follow through with actions that would demonstrate understanding and respect for what we need. We just kind of toss stuff out there instead of communicating with intention and conviction.
So just keep exploring your though patterns, your awareness and understanding of what you need to do to take good care of you will grow if you keep up the good work. He will be over there doing the things he does and it may forever remain a mystery... eventually you will likely tire of watching him spin in his pattern because you'll have outgrown it. Which is a good thing.
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Post by anne12 on Apr 25, 2023 23:55:38 GMT
chase Aps are wired this way from childhood “The love and presence has been there in the form of mother / father, only to disappear without warning. Then it might come back again, only to disappear again (yo-yo), without the child being able to figure out when love was available. Therefore, the child will be busy figuring out how to get in touch with the parents/caregivers and how to get love. Because the child sometimes succeeded in getting love. The child therefore believes, it has something to do with the child itself” “Do we change with partners based on their attachment style? I've never dated someone who disappears and is silent before” - yes Fas are the ones you can play this yo-yo pattern with - on again / off again
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chase
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Post by chase on Apr 26, 2023 1:42:32 GMT
I just got a notification he text me. I see it in preview but haven't opened it so he isnt aware I saw it as im not going to respond right now as I want to be strong and dont know how to respond. It's short "Hope your day was sunny"
And that's all. Odd, but a reach out, isn't it? Because I haven't contacted him? He's probably expecting my old "where have you been, are you OK? Do you need me?" He got none of that.
I don't want to play games, but is that what I'm doing if I see it and DON'T answer? I don't have the intention of going no contact forever with him (yet and if) because that's not where I felt like I left things. Was I clear? I was clear about how it made me feel. I was clear about what I would like from him as I am also working on myself. I didn't say "fix it now or I'm gone" or, "im done with this" if that is what you mean, Introvert.
His social media use. I should snooze him while I try to find myself. He posts, doesn't get a reaction and later deletes things. I sheepishly admit I've watched this behavior from him. Not to bring it up to him, but I'm seeing that's my AP and also an attempt to study and understand him (not needed or healthy I know now).
My apologies if this seems anxious.I feel like Im Leaving him hanging, but I cannot and will not forget ME. I matter.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 26, 2023 2:43:05 GMT
im not going to respond right now as I want to be strong and dont know how to respond. I don't want to play games, but is that what I'm doing if I see it and DON'T answer? Not answering when you want to answer is playing games. Not answering because you need space and are sorting out your thoughts so that you can answer soon, or because you've already said in advance you need space and you're figuring things out (and you meant it and are doing what you said rather than avoiding), is not playing games. Not answering when it's part of game playing is not "being strong" to anyone, but it is how an AP or an anxious FA perceive being strong. Because it's rooted in a power dynamic that doesn't actually exist if you just choose not to see it that way: if you do not participate in power plays or try to base your value on external interactions with another person or use protest behavior to try to illicit a specific kind of response, then any sense of power struggles and control issues fade away. Power struggles feel real to an insecure attacher because it's what they know and what dynamics have been in other points of life with other people, but if you can connect with yourself and not abandon yourself, you get to the point where it really isn't real and doesn't matter. And then it's easier to communicate freely instead of out of fear, because you know deep down YOU will be okay no matter what. People can shift their responses to different attachment dynamics, yes. A much more anxious person will likely make a partner lean slightly avoidant, whereas a much more avoidant person will make a partner lean slightly anxious. Even if the partner is secure! It's very normal. But if someone is FA, they are basically completely reactive, and will lean in whichever direction is opposite whatever their partner is doing. We have some posters come through here who think they're AP because they've only ever dated avoidants and always get anxious about dating, but then sometimes over time start to realize they have other coping mechanisms in life that are quite avoidant themselves. But they just weren't consciously aware of it, always dating the same type which only brought out their anxious side. (AP with low avoidance and low natural distrust of others no matter who they pair with are truly AP, though.) A way to focus on yourself but still understand the attachment theory framework is to not say, what is my specific partner thinking/feeling/doing?? But instead to explore with curiosity hey, I'm AP. How do AP dynamics look with other insecure pairings? What are typical AP/DA patterns? AP/FA? AP/secure? AP/AP? I found that overall high level view that was still more focused on me very helpful to eventually understand. |
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 26, 2023 8:58:14 GMT
Hi chase…one thing to understand about avoidant leaning FAs is…for the most part they do not want to “shut the door” if a relationship was “overall good”. This is not necessarily a “game” tactic, but more a way to downgrade the relationship to a more manageable level. This can be really, really confusing and I have been through it personally. I agree with alexandra…if you are not reading his text because you want some space…that is fine, but if you are not reading his text and hoping for something to come from not reading his text…that is game playing. It is absolutely ok to write him a text back asking for 30 days of no contact while you figure things out. My therapist is an SE therapist….somatic experiencing. It is based on the idea that trauma is stored in the body and to work through trauma actually requires getting back in touch with parts you may have numbed. It has really helped me to gain awareness of trauma that I had “swept under the rug”. Let me know if you have any questions. I am one of those posters who originally thought I was AP because I always chose avoidant leaning FA men as partners….but over time here….some very observant fellow posters suggested I might actually be an AP leaning FA due to some avoidant tendencies that I had not acknowledged as FA. Let me know if you have any questions. |
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chase
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Post by chase on Apr 26, 2023 12:28:12 GMT
The relationship was (is) "overall good" with this exception. But it seems to be a pretty big one. When he is feeling good, it's good. This spiral is a bigger longer one than I have seen, but is it because I called attention to it in a different way? and does it even matter? I didn't want to respond right away because my "normal" would have been "What's wrong? How can I help you feel better, what can I do" type response where he would try to assure me it isn't ME, that he doesn't know why he does this, that he loves me. Then I feel "needed and wanted" then and I have no clue what HE gets out of it. I didn't know how else to respond to NOT do that again because I realize that it gets us nowhere really, just part of the circle. What I do know is that it will happen again if someones behavior doesn't change. Does that make sense? As far as playing games, I was not looking to "get" any type of action out of it. I didn't intend on trying to illicit any type of response from him, make him miss me or anything. Nothing like that. I just didn't want to participate in the cycle of chasing to feel better.
I ended up this morning sending a reply "Thanks! It was Sunny!" And that is all. Do I require 30 days of no contact? I am not sure? Could I lean FA too? I would like to learn more about that!!
"if you do not participate in power plays or try to base your value on external interactions with another person or use protest behavior to try to illicit a specific kind of response, then any sense of power struggles and control issues fade away."
YIKES..Protest behavior! Is that what the cryptic and sometimes not so cryptic social media posts are about? I read an article just now that says, Protest behaviors are usually bad communication habits formed in our past—often before we knew any other way of getting our message across. Instead of expressing our thoughts and feelings directly and honestly, we play games and hope others will be able to decode our actions.
The social media posts would keep me running to him checking if "I could help, did he need me, was he ok, I noticed something he posted that was strange feeling?" Instead of openly telling me that he was having insecurities or bad feelings or anything honest and open. I don't think I was not answering his text to express anything other than I need to take a moment and decide how to proceed. But it FEELS very much like that was his way of calling me close without actually asking. Shuts me out with quiet but screams for attention on social media? Is it unhealthy or unnecessary for me to tell him I SEE that and it is a reason I will pull back (maybe I am avoidant here now)?
Does he also lean anxious? Alexandra said- "But if someone is FA, they are basically completely reactive, and will lean in whichever direction is opposite whatever their partner is doing." So I mirror quiet to do some work on myself and he reaches out. ugh. I like to think I am pretty honest and open about what I need in a relationship. I wasn't afraid to tell him I needed consistency from him. Not getting it made me anxious. I was honest about that, also realizing it is MY responsibility for my feelings.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 15:46:19 GMT
I think where an AP gets tripped up, is there is a tendency to communicate how they feel, while expecting someone who consistently triggers them with their lack of responsiveness to DO SOMETHING about it. Rather than having to take action in order to correct the situation, they rely on the other to change.
Stating your feelings and asking for changes works ok in a relationship where both people are invested in growth and actively living that way. Bids for connection are made and met in a secure relationship.
Where it gets really unhealthy for AP's is that they share their feelings and think they've done their part... but what they don't see is that if you hold out for availability and consistency from someone who has been unavailable and inconsistent for a long time, and who remains unavailabke and inconsistent, there is more to be done than ask wait ruminate ask wait ruminate ask wait ruminate.
What is required at that point is to recognize that this person is not available, and leave. That's what the AP struggles with. So they think they are doing all the things, communicating all the things, showing up, working at it. But working at a relationship actually begins with choosing an available partner, one who demonstrates consistent availability.
If you're working at a relationship with an unavailable person, you are showing up at the wrong job. If you're communicating with an unavailable person you're communicating with the wrong person.
As the situation wears on, the AP grows more and more obsessed with trying to figure out what's going on, what's wrong with this person that isn't stepping up? The harder they think about that, the more research they do, the more they become convinced that the problem lies with the other person. What they miss is that they are as emotionally unavailable as the person they are chasing, and this whole process is doomed to fail because neither person is able to just make themselves available for a healthy, two way relationship. They are both stuck in a loop called the Anxious Avoidant Trap.
It's a real doozy.
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Post by cherrycola on Apr 26, 2023 16:27:25 GMT
To build on what @introvert was saying is I think those of us with AP tendencies think we are communicating but we aren't. We complain and criticize and tell them the problem, but we don't help our partner with a concrete actionable thing they could do to help meet our needs. Or even why it is a problem for us. How does the thing make us feel?
The avoidant can be left feeling like they failed and don't know how to move forward and the anxious feels unheard and gets louder, then the avoidant starts to avoid. Etc etc etc.
Sue Johnson calls this the protest polka in her book hold me tight. It's a great read.
This is where it's really important to get in touch with our needs.
I found non-violent communication really helpful in that regard to be able to fully communicate and not just complain at my partner and expect them to know how to magically solve the problem.
But @introvert is also right that after we've fully communicated it is up to us to set boundaries and take action if they can't/won't step up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 16:38:21 GMT
Ha. Give an unaware avoidaht clear steps on how they can be more accessible. That's exactly what they are avoiding. Not because they are crap people but because they chronically avoid themselves. So do anxious people ironically. They avoid their pain by making someone else responsible for it. Bith sides do that. It's just a mess. Only gets better if both people are aware and have a basic level of security.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 16:56:55 GMT
So, this isn't to say that both sides can't grow and move toward the middle. It can happen. My partner and I have moved toward the middle in so many ways but then again, we didn't have an issue of either of us going dark, we came to the relationship with readiness based on our individual progress. We had a viable starting point. It's a matter of degree, and where someone is at on their trajectory.
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Post by cherrycola on Apr 26, 2023 16:58:48 GMT
Ha. Give an unaware avoidaht clear steps on how they can be more accessible. That's exactly what they are avoiding. Not because they are crap people but because they chronically avoid themselves. So do anxious people ironically. They avoid their pain by making someone else responsible for it. Bith sides do that. It's just a mess. Only gets better if both people are aware and have a basic level of security. When you put it that way yeah, you are only going to get so far, but for example. If a partner was complaining at you "you never have time for me" vs saying "I feel like I haven't seen a lot of you lately, can we have a date night on Friday?" Which one would feel better to you? One is vague and nefarious and one is like oh, that's something I could consider ! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 17:05:11 GMT
Ha. Give an unaware avoidaht clear steps on how they can be more accessible. That's exactly what they are avoiding. Not because they are crap people but because they chronically avoid themselves. So do anxious people ironically. They avoid their pain by making someone else responsible for it. Bith sides do that. It's just a mess. Only gets better if both people are aware and have a basic level of security. When you put it that way yeah, you are only going to get so far, but for example. If a partner was complaining at you "you never have time for me" vs saying "I feel like I haven't seen a lot of you lately, can we have a date night on Friday?" Which one would feel better to you? One is vague and nefarious and one is like oh, that's something I could consider ! Right, but it goes back to having a partner who is unavailable... an ap can try all kinds of ways to change that and it doesn't work. |
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chase
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Post by chase on Apr 26, 2023 17:09:43 GMT
What is required at that point is to recognize that this person is not available, and leave. That's what the AP struggles with. So they think they are doing all the things, communicating all the things, showing up, working at it. But working at a relationship actually begins with choosing an available partner, one who demonstrates consistent availability. If you're working at a relationship with an unavailable person, you are showing up at the wrong job. If you're communicating with an unavailable person you're communicating with the wrong person. I think what I am sitting on right now is this very point. Since I JUST brought it up days ago, and am JUST NOW learning more about it myself, am I AT THIS POINT yet? Nobody can answer that but me, I know, but it seems that this all makes so much sense. How LONG does one give someone to show they are going to put in the work, and for what reason (not for me, for him)? Does he really understand or have the capability to understand what HIS part is in this? I have not (until now) had a real explanation of how or why I felt anxious, just that I do (did) and would like consistent contact or warning if he is going silent. Should I mention that he had some substance abuse issues in the way past and overcame that and said that if he can do that and change his behavior and thinking, he can do this. (now, will I see that put into action? That is another story) Maybe that led to the reason he had those issues. I don't have fear of being alone, I think I have a pretty good self esteem and although not perfect, I can see my actions in all of this thanks to you all. I am anxiously grounded. LOL What I got from when the relationship is good, is really good. Matched for interests, sense of humor, attraction, morals and ethics. But the spells where the distance comes in are where it is really painfully interesting to read my diary (doesn't SOUND like me). For what it's worth, I just received a simple thumbs up emoji to my text response. Figures. Also-as to the point "begins with choosing an available partner, one who demonstrates consistent availability." He DID this. for around half a year. Was AVAILABLE and RECIPROCAL. Leading me to question if that was the mask? I didn't start the diary until I was feeling uncomfortable. Tiny part of my brain telling me "you were tricked." |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 18:43:28 GMT
What is required at that point is to recognize that this person is not available, and leave. That's what the AP struggles with. So they think they are doing all the things, communicating all the things, showing up, working at it. But working at a relationship actually begins with choosing an available partner, one who demonstrates consistent availability. If you're working at a relationship with an unavailable person, you are showing up at the wrong job. If you're communicating with an unavailable person you're communicating with the wrong person. I think what I am sitting on right now is this very point. Since I JUST brought it up days ago, and am JUST NOW learning more about it myself, am I AT THIS POINT yet? Nobody can answer that but me, I know, but it seems that this all makes so much sense. How LONG does one give someone to show they are going to put in the work, and for what reason (not for me, for him)? Does he really understand or have the capability to understand what HIS part is in this? I have not (until now) had a real explanation of how or why I felt anxious, just that I do (did) and would like consistent contact or warning if he is going silent. Should I mention that he had some substance abuse issues in the way past and overcame that and said that if he can do that and change his behavior and thinking, he can do this. (now, will I see that put into action? That is another story) Maybe that led to the reason he had those issues. I don't have fear of being alone, I think I have a pretty good self esteem and although not perfect, I can see my actions in all of this thanks to you all. I am anxiously grounded. LOL What I got from when the relationship is good, is really good. Matched for interests, sense of humor, attraction, morals and ethics. But the spells where the distance comes in are where it is really painfully interesting to read my diary (doesn't SOUND like me). For what it's worth, I just received a simple thumbs up emoji to my text response. Figures. Also-as to the point "begins with choosing an available partner, one who demonstrates consistent availability." He DID this. for around half a year. Was AVAILABLE and RECIPROCAL. Leading me to question if that was the mask? I didn't start the diary until I was feeling uncomfortable. Tiny part of my brain telling me "you were tricked." Yeah that's the very difficult part of the FA dynamic, the sudden switch after a period of time. I think I dated an FA at one point, and looking back the beginning wasn't so great, he was very intense and I actually felt I had to hold him off a bit. When he switched it was so updownupdown I lost patience in a few weeks and just cut it off. That's where there is a big difference... a more dismissive type will move away from what is destabilizing, and an anxious person will move toward it and become more anxious. We give up, anxious try harder. FA spin doing both. It's all very confusing but once you see it you can't unsee it, and that's when the hard work begins. I'm sorry you're going through it, it really sucks. |
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