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Post by cherrycola on Sept 28, 2023 20:51:34 GMT
I think I may have mentioned him in another thread.
I have a friend who I met 5 years ago who is poly (43m). When we met it felt like there was something there romantically, but I communicated I was not interested in anything other than friendship. Part of this was because his wife (42f) has always made me uncomfortable. She has untreated mental illness and their relationship (in my opinion) is very co-dependent, with her being unable/unwilling to work so they live with his parents and he works. When I say untreated mental illness, an example is, he is not out as poly at work and during the work Christmas party she bragged to our boss about all the men she sleeps with and how she could have any men she wanted. It was VERY cringe. He has complained about their dynamic. since I met him, and being broke but then anything I say in response is met with him defending her as unable to help it because she is autistic. She has no where to go because she can't work. She has no one to stay with, etc etc.
I do understand that as someone who stayed in a relationship with nothing changing and just complaining for years. I know it is hard to leave that dynamic. I've done a lot of work teasing out my feelings of jealousy, annoyance, etc towards her, and really processing them so they didn't get in the way of our friendship. I do see her in small amounts as I value his friendship but overall I have no interest in any sort of relationship with her and he has respected this. I did recently set a boundary around his constant complaining about her and then doing nothing, and while I realize he is obviously getting something out of this relationship (a sense of control of being the one to work, help her etc) he needs to speak with a professional as he seems stuck.
So recently him and his wife started a new triad relationship with a (24M) who is new to poly and exploring his sexuality. They have been taking him to local fetish events and being intimate. He told me about this and it instantly gave me the ick.
So I am having a hard time teasing out the parts that are my inner avoidant critical voice that is projecting onto others and actual this is really unhealthy behavior and now that I am really getting to know my own values we just aren't compatible as friends. I did express concern that this man is not able to really advocate for himself and it was the same typical explaining away that of course he can, he is a great communicator and he is "exploring" etc.
As someone who has been in a lot of age gap relationships and felt I was "ready" for them, looking back I really was not. So not only is there a massive age gap but with how unhinged the wife is, I would not be bringing someone else into that dynamic.
So yeah.... trying not to judge my friend, trying to let go the parts of him that are not perfect because no one is perfect. but struggling.
Edit: I do silently judge all of my friends, which I realize is a reflection of how I talk to myself. So that is why I am not trusting myself here, if it's a me or a them or an us problem. My best friend is in a terrible marriage that I think she would be better off single BUT I recognize she loves him and needs to walk her own path in life. They are in an age appropriate relationship where neither one is taking advantage of or abusing the other. He may not be my favorite person but I don't dislike hanging out with him, we play games, have dinner. Etc.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 28, 2023 21:44:01 GMT
It's okay to grow apart from people who don't share your values, and they do their own thing and you do yours. I agree with you that bringing someone new and much younger into their dynamic is probably not healthy, though you don't know the third and he is probably exploring his own issues too (or he'd not be participating). That doesn't particularly make it a great situation, but it is one you can't do anything about aside from voicing your concern the one time. If you want to distance yourself from a situation that you're uncomfortable with (especially for an actual reason versus something you can't explain, and able to fully articulate a reason often signals that it isn't just jumbled insecurity), it's really okay. It's okay to want to spend your time with people who want to take action to grow and mature rather than people doubling down on getting stuck and dragging others into it.
It sounds like you think it's not okay because you wouldn't want to be judged or seen as judgemental, rather than because you're being avoidant?
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Post by alexandra on Sept 28, 2023 21:50:24 GMT
Adding: FWIW, I've distanced myself from people based on disagreeing with how they treat others (and subsequently themselves). Top of mind is someone who completely lied to a partner about their past because they were running away from it and avoiding it... which maybe is okay at first before you get to know someone and haven't built trust yet, but after a long time together, that person I knew then wanted to marry the partner and only intended to be honest AFTER locking the partner down. I couldn't tell the partner because it wasn't my place but I didn't feel okay with enabling that situation either, so I drifted away. They never did make it to marriage, so it resolved itself and people went their separate ways (and hopefully got help from there, though I only know from social media that my former friend did eventually marry someone else years later, no idea if they sought help first). I still have no regrets about getting the ick from the situation and bailing out on that friendship.
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Post by introvert on Sept 28, 2023 22:07:07 GMT
Finding something that doesn't align with your values distasteful doesn't make you avoidant. Letting a connection fade because you don't align with someone's personal choices doesn't make you anything but a person who is selective about their relationships.
If you were to preach at them and shame them or something, that would over a line and a boundary, it's their choice how they want to live. But there's no obligation to embrace everything that comes along.
I don't do ick, and I don't want anyone else to do ick when it comes to a friendship with me. It's a big world and people can find people they vibe with, they don't need me, nor do I need them. That's not avoidant IMO, it's just free.
I like the saying:
People are in your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. I find it easy to see which is which in my life, it makes a lot of sense to me.
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Post by cherrycola on Sept 28, 2023 22:09:43 GMT
Yeah, I don't want to be a judgmental person who tells others how to live or not live their life. I am aware of my tendency to see myself as "better", more mature, than others, and find reasons to distance myself from people. I want to get to the place where I just love people for who they are and then decide if that aligns for a mutually fulfilling relationship. But I guess with avoidants there is usually a kernel of truth, somewhere, in all that avoidance.
I'm also afraid that I'll find a reason to end every friendship if I'm not careful and it isn't like I have a lot of people in my life.
I know in the healthier parts of the poly/kink communities there is a lot of emphasis around how to bring people into it and most experienced polys would not even consider dating a new poly, let alone a new poly so young because of all the inherent problems. And the age gap along with the obvious boundary issues just make me mad? But then it feels like a sense of fairness, like *I* would never do that, so how dare you do that?
I also worry my friend is going through something. He has been attending every kink event in town and mixing it with drugs and during the last one, boundaries he didn't even know he had got crossed. I asked him what the rush was and he indicated it was his wife driving this. She wanted to go full tilt into this new lifestyle and he went along with her because it was fun. But again, all I can do is express to him maybe slow down a bit and then move on.
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Post by introvert on Sept 28, 2023 22:16:01 GMT
Isn't there a point at which you want healthier individuals as friends, rather than people who struggle to be healthy? I don't think that's unreasonable. Like attracts like in so many ways, and if you aren't attracted to this friendship it can be an indication you've outgrown some insecure and problematic things yourself.
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Post by cherrycola on Sept 28, 2023 22:26:59 GMT
Yes, I really do want healthier friendships and when I reflect I can definitely see myself drawn to certain people now over others. There is a certain hollowness in some relationships. Where I probe for a tiny bit of depth and it isn't there.
I valued this friend because the depth was always there, from day one.
I also just realized I am seeing my friend as a victim so I am in my rescuer space instead of my adult space. He is an adult, in an adult relationship and he can choose to show up differently.
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 4, 2024 19:05:13 GMT
Ugh, so just when I get over the "ick" and kinda find a new spot for him in my life, they stirred up more drama and I got a fresh Ick? which I guess confirms they really aren't a great fit. But I am so sad over this. Trying to work thru my feelings. He'll be changing departments soon so I'll be seeing even less of him, which is good because I am definitely feeling like I need space.
We currently work on the same team, so his wife constantly gives him gifts to give to me. Home, crafty type things. He knows my stance on decluttering my life, I have turned down many of them, usually as he is trying to give them to me, I cut him off at the pass. Before the holidays he left one such item on my desk before I came in for the day, and I awkwardly had to return it. I was polite, said I appreciated the thought but it was going to sit in a drawer and collect dust. Instead of accepting my no, he asked me how she could change it for me to want it. I kept trying to decline anything further but I felt awkward returning a gift as is, and I guess I wasn't direct enough because I came back from time off to an even bigger and more elaborate version on my desk. Even my work husband was confused because he heard me return the first gift, and felt I had set a boundary of please stop.
So now I have to set a more direct boundary of I do not want gifts from your wife. Which makes me feel like a bad person, but I have already asked for less and that didn't work. He knows I want to limit my interactions with his wife, he knows she makes me uncomfortable. She has also been messaging me on messenger which I reply to minimally.
On top of that he started drama by repeating something out of context about a mutual acquaintance (who I did not even know was a mutual) to her undefined, insecure partner and starting a fight between them. When I said that wasn't cool, he shrugged it off as they needed to have the what are we conversation so it was all good. It felt like I was being dragged back into high school all over again, when these people are in their 40s !
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 4, 2024 19:15:34 GMT
On a more positive note, I have been making an effort to make new friends, but even my newest friend is giving me the ick, and I am struggling again with is this normal. Because I feel like a secure person wouldn't put so much weight on two things out of dozens that someone said. They would see the friendship as a whole. I am trying to take it as just a orange flag right now.
We met thru a mutual and have hung out twice. During our first time she said she doesn't want to see a friend only once a month, that it isn't enough for her. That she likes to see her friends constantly. Then when we ended the night she expressed interest in seeing me again, the next week and threw in that she has a car and would be happy to come to me. So then my thoughts were, I barely see my best friend once a month! and to the second one my thoughts were "ewww, she is kinda desperate eh?" Due to the holidays there was a gap, and we hung out again, which was nice, easy to plan, and no further ick occurred.
I think? it's really just that I feel like there is some giant expectation on me now? Like I don't even know you and now I feel like I have to be your best friend. I appreciate having another ADHD friend in my life. I appreciate that she has been thru some hard things and has life experience. She definitely brought out my oversharing part which I've been trying to suppress but I find when two ADHD women hang out, all bets are off as to where this conversation is going to go.
I have been trying to balance her out with, she is fun, and independent. She does seem to keep busy. She seems semi self aware that she over functions in her friendships and is trying to do less of that. That she wants a balanced friendship where both people plan things and show up. She accepted my honesty that right now I am a bit mentally spent and don't have a ton of capacity for planning but I usually won't say no to plans if someone offers and I have time...
So I guess I am going to wait and see? It just brings up all this fear of all the other clingy neuro-divergent people I've had in my life who get way too attached way too fast and then I back off and the relationship blows up !
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Post by alexandra on Jan 4, 2024 19:36:19 GMT
I think your feelings and reactions to both these situations you've described sound reasonable. It sounds like you are sensing that all these people have boundary issues and you don't want the sole enforcement of boundaries completely falling onto you. Since you're aware and looking for healthier friendships, those are not feelings to ignore or beat yourself up about.
Is there any place you can regift the coworker's wife stuff to? Or do you need to just throw them away if the coworker won't take them back or stop giving them to you. I've always found people who think they're being nice by forcing gifts or "favors" on you that you didn't ask for and don't want to be extremely problematic FWIW. There's nothing wrong with you feeling that.
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Post by introvert on Jan 8, 2024 14:00:21 GMT
Shouldn't a friendship grow organically? This kind of sounds like filling a job position... here are the requirements, please say yes, aaaaand you're hired!
It does seem like there is expectation, and needs that you're expected to meet before even getting to know each other. I have a strong reaction to what you're describing, and I don't think I'm that avoidant any more but maybe in some ways. But dang, she came out the gate strong.
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 8, 2024 22:07:59 GMT
Thanks for the feedback introvert alexandra. I definitely try to build things more organically now, but with that said. I think as you get older, there is a need to be more deliberate to build friendships. There is also a culture here of being guarded and jaded with letting new people ino your life. I continue to have negative experiences with the first friend but I think I'm feeling more accepting of that ending. I definitely have some weird old stories floating in my head that if someone wants to be your friend then you should want to be theirs. Probably comes from being the odd duck as a child. I also have a, I'm a broken person and want to be accepted as is so I should accept others story. It's definitely some societal programming around getting along with everyone. First friend continues to say cringy things around being a mediator for others and how it doesn't matter how someone treats you because they have their own past so you should always talk it out and hear them out. Which mirrors how his own partner treats him horribly but he keeps excusing all her behavior as autism so she can't help it. Having come from an abusive past it's definitely triggering and feels so apologist. And of course shows a lack of boundaries. Leaves me feeling a bit of an alien that I am trying hard to stay out of others business and here is this person who not only inserts himself but takes pride in meddling in others relationships. I previously communicated to him that anytime I try to vent, for ect about our about our mutual boss or a bad date, and he instantly jumps to defend the person, it is very invalidating but he is unable to stop. So I just stopped sharing those things. |
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Post by introvert on Jan 9, 2024 4:41:57 GMT
Sounds like he gaslights himself and therefore you as well?
(Your feelings are invalid, you're not sensitive enough to the offenders plight, don't feel the way you feel because everybody has pain, suck it up and think of others...)
That's not very empathetic.
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