annes
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Post by annes on Sept 30, 2023 22:31:25 GMT
I posted a few months back and got wonderful advice from this community. I had fallen in this pattern of never being able to get past the first date. I followed the advice. But first I took a few months break from dating, and slowly find peace in my own company, de-centering men from my life. After a while, I started to feel ready to date again, I felt positive and realized the previous collection of bad experiences was due not only to bad filtering, but also to my own negativity. I wasn't really in a good place and it's never a good idea to date when you are loaded with negative beliefs about yourself, men, and relationships in general. So the break helped me gained perspective and become more positive. Back in June I decided to put myself out there and my shift immediately gave results. I filtered waaaay better and it showed. I saw a man for about 6-7 dates, the longest since the end of my last LTR. Already a success I guess? Unfortunately I realized I didn't really like him and broke things off after that time. He was however consistent and warm. But we didn't have an intellectual nor an emotional connection. He was heavily quiet and there was no fun nor intellectual stimulation. Also, I realized he never asked questions about me. I remember being in bed after sex staring at the roof while trying to ask him questions to connect more but it kept hitting a wall.
As an AP-FA, breaking things off doesn't come very easy but after 2 days feeling a bit sad, I quickly moved on.
Shortly after I meet another man. We have many things in common. I expect things to fade after the first date as usual but he warmly makes sure I know he enjoyed spending time with me after each date. He is very warm and consistent and looks for a relationship. We even have a talk and tell each other that's what we are looking for. One night we have so much fun together I am literally flooded with oxytocin and start to feel that kind of tenderness I hadn't felt for anyone in such a long time. He seems sweet and vulnerable. He texts very often though and my FA side sometimes kicks in. What if this is yet another lovebomber? What if I get used to all of this attention and then suddenly things fall apart, as usual?
I have major issues with trust and I constantly wait for the other shoe to drop. But I tried to be positive and not get too much in my head. I decided to put a boundary on sex (first time in my life), to build some connection first and see if I can trust him. He is very okay with it, says he's looking for the long term and has no issue waiting. But he asks me - what if we build a good connection and then sex isn't good? I have never had issues with sex with any of my previous partners, so while I acknowledge the relevance of the question, I was a bit taken aback. Anyway, we keep seeing each other. There is a lot of texting all the time. One night things get more intimate and we end up in bed. He can't perform and apologizes, I understand and put no pressure on him. But I notice he never compliments me (while I do) and something in me feels like he doesn't desire me. He assures me that it is not about me, it happens with every new person he needs time. After that night, he changes completely though. He gets cold. Texts are less and less. I ask him what's wrong he says he needs time to figure out if we are friends or more. I tell him that I prefer to move on, because I am very turned off by his sudden interest shift with no communication.
A few things he said also made me question his honesty. I was right - he was too invested too much too soon, and ultimately in retrospect that looks like love bombing. It's the first time a lovebomber says they want a long term relationship with me, except that after intimacy they suddenly lose interest in you.
Not gonna lie, I've seen this guy for a month and I am a bit heartbroken. I have gone full no contact and have no intention of rekindling anything, but it hurts. I feel rejected and frankly, tired. It was the first time in such a long time I was feeling excited about someone who apparently wanted a relationship and made me believe he could see something long term with me. But as soon as I let my guard a bit down and start to relax they lose interest.
I want to move on but the thought of this guy rejecting me keeps putting me down. Dating is so stressful and I am not sure I can handle these highs and lows anymore. I think I am having a dopamine withdrawal right now, as he was giving to me all this attention. And I feel a bit sad because I fell in this trap again. I had already dealt with a love-bomber and had sworn to myself I will never fall again, but here I am.
My therapist said he doesn't have to be a lovebomber, he might have been genuinely enthusiastic about me, I don't need to see him as a bad person. Also, she suggested that since I wasnt sure about him either, I could have given him the time he asked for and learn to stay with the discomfort.
I don't know, this advice isn't helping me really. I am now stuck in this limbo second-guessing myself, while a part of me knows that I did the right thing.
I guess I needed to vent a bit, I don't know what I am asking here exactly. Probably I want to know how to move on and be positive about dating again. Because right now, I feel like giving up completely, a thought that however is really depressing. If I filter and keep seeing only the consistent ones, nothing guarantees they will keep being consistent. I am doomed if I keep my guard up and I am doomed if I don't.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 30, 2023 23:08:27 GMT
There is so much positive in your update, and I hope you've stopped for a minute to be proud of yourself and recognize that you've done a bunch of hard work and taken good steps forward! Things don't get completely fixed overnight and it's still a process that you're in the middle of, but there's a lot of progress here and that's always nice to read. Reading through the post, I think you're at the next step in your process and figuring out where to go from there. You've had good insights both from yourself and your therapist, and now you're at this point: If I filter and keep seeing only the consistent ones, nothing guarantees they will keep being consistent. I am doomed if I keep my guard up and I am doomed if I don't. The thing is, the first sentence there is absolutely true. Consistency doesn't guarantee anything, though it filters out the definite non-starters and time wasters. It is still only part of the equation, though. That doesn't mean you're doomed, but it does mean you're now working on the next part of the equation: working on being okay and not abandoning yourself if you've taken your guard down and things didn't work out. There's no way to date without any risk or vulnerability, and in my experience a lot of insecures are attempting to control for that. Even posts here, the fears often come down to "how can I date without getting hurt." And that isn't about filtering perfectly or keeping up your guard until the right moment, it's just about not abandoning yourself and being strong enough in your identity and connection to yourself to know you'll be okay even if it wasn't the right person for you. Another thing about your experience is, when someone says "this has happened before," especially when he said it happens often... believe them! It means it has little or nothing to do with you, and it's their issues that existed before you came around and haven't been dealt with yet. I've had guys totally flip on me after early intimacy, and I blamed myself, but it was their problem not mine. And I wasn't saying that just to make myself (or you) feel better, it took a lot of time and experience to look back on it and understand that. If you're just not sexually compatible with someone, there are still ways to communicate about it and even separate or end things that still make both parties feel heard and respected. When the ending of a relatively short-term dating situation ended poorly, due to lack of communication or feeling disrespected, it was usually because someone (one or both of us) was emotionally immature or unavailable, and was going to happen eventually regardless of what the other person did. Again, you cannot perfectly filter for that because sometimes it takes 1-3 months, or more, for things to come out, especially in insecure pairings. This isn't a bad thing. The sooner a bad match shows themselves out, the better, even if it hurts in the moment and for some time after. Believing that when you have an insecure attachment style is HARD, but it got a little easier each time as I learned to really listen when someone was saying it's not you it's me, this isn't the first time, etc. etc. They step aside, and yes, it can be frustrating to know that now you have to restart the search, but you're also now open and available to find someone who isn't going to flake out on you instead of building a foundation of trust. I do agree with your therapist, that this guy maybe wasn't love bombing you. Or at least wasn't aware of it if he was. The end result is, it didn't matter, the bigger picture is he wasn't emotionally stable or perhaps available enough to be ready for an actual relationship. It didn't work out, and that's okay. It sucks because it was meeting some of your needs while it lasted, but that puts a light on where you can be more grounded in yourself so that you don't need that kind of fleeting validation. That doesn't come instantly, either. In my thread about dating after I earned secure, I still was attracted to insecure avoidants for a bit longer, and I needed to consciously assess and course correct until I was secure enough that the types of behaviors I was attracted to fully changed. It still took maybe a year AFTER I earned secure to stop falling into those traps. So you're getting there! But it's still one step at a time. It's okay that this experience was more for learning than longevity and that you didn't choose perfectly this time. Part of dating is a numbers game, and your experiences have already been improving, so you're on the right track, and it's okay to not be at your destination yet. That doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong or you're damned if you do or don't and should close yourself back up. It just means waiting until you feel like dusting yourself off and trying again with someone else and gaining more traction and confidence in yourself with each new experience. I don't think you need to second-guess yourself here about this guy, because you did the right thing, just based on how he pulled away afterwards while saying the opposite of what he was actually doing instead of acting like you're on the same team. You can trust yourself here more than you think!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2023 3:20:39 GMT
Sexual issues can really ding a guys confidence and self esteem, and that may well be where his thoughts were at when he had the convo about if the sex isn't good. Like, what if he can't perform and the sex isn't good for you, how would you respond to that? Your response may not have been as reassuring as he had hoped, because you were taking it to be about you.
Guys are vulnerable too. They don't want to get hurt, rejected, they don't want to disappoint you in bed either. So this may not be about him rejecting you, but about him not feeling necessarily safe to be vulnerable with you. He said he needed time. I think the guy could have been really uncomfortable with how it was going after the sex issue and wanted to get out of that uncomfortable position, Pronto.
It's hard to have empathy for someone else when you are insecure and waiting for the other shoe to drop. As you get more secure, you will not automatically see every wrinkle as the other shoe dropping, or someone rejecting you. You'll be able to see that when someone asks you a personal question, they may be trying to determine the amount of support they can receive from you as the relationship progresses and issues (like ED) come up, instead of looking for potential reasons to reject you.
I'd just take this as a learning experience and not take it as rejection. A problem came up and you guys didn't have what it takes to get past it, that's all. Keep up the work toward emotional security and building empathy (that isn't natural in an insecure state, for anybody). Security is as much about creating a safe space for the other as much as it is about having a safe space for yourself. It comes together in time as you get further down the road.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2023 3:28:03 GMT
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annes
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Post by annes on Oct 3, 2023 12:54:01 GMT
Thank you both for once again sharing very helpful insights. I've read your replies many times and they are helping me gain more perspective. alexandra, I really needed this kind of encouragement. Thanks for helping me to see the positive. Because in my mind i wasn't framing it as a step into progressing towards secure, I was telling myself an entirely different story. I would love to read your post about becoming secure. I probably read it a while back but I feel like now I would appreciate it better. Helps to see that the next step I need to work on is "knowing that I will be okay" no matter what. Unfortunately, there is still this deeply ingrained belief in myself that confuses the end of a relationship with a major threat to my survival i think. I do indeed attempt to control for that. It's such a difficult thing to navigate. I still feel like my journey to secure is very long and difficult. I am journaling a lot to understand better and I realized I was indeed abandoning myself. There were a few things I didn't like but I pretended they weren't there because my system is still wired to prioritizing the connection with others over the connection with myself. THis, despite all of the progress that I have done. It's like at every step of the process there is another insecurity yet to be addressed. But 3 years ago my struggles were way different. Your comment reminded me that becoming secure involves a lot of behaviors first, that will later become natural and even affect our attraction. Indeed, I think I am no longer attracted to flakey types as I used to be, and that's definitely progress. That's why I feel down now. Because I thought I was doing everything right, I was giving him my attention because he behaved in a consistent way, in a way that checked the boxes, but still didn't work out. Dating feels like this very painful process in which you have to fight a new dragon at each corner and the reward is never available. All of this reinforces my deeply ingrained belief that it is hard to be loved, and it really takes a lot of work to counter that belief. I am not sure I am succeeding but I'll try. I guess at this round I learnt that emotional availability is not something you can gauge early on EVEN IF the person looks like they are emotionally available, say that they are, and act like they are at the beginning. This is a new piece of information I guess. I didn't expect people to be so articulate in their wanting a relationship and still not being really there. I like what you said about not treating me as if we were on the same team. Because at some point I felt excluded from the team. Like he was going for the individual route and didn't even bother communicating. I'll admit this part is the most painful. It's like when someone stops to even try. You said that he was probably emotionally immature (agreed) or unavailable and this would have come up anyway, but it's hard to not personalize this - my FA brain goes to places like "it's when they get to know me that they leave", feeding into my "I am unlovable" wound. I know, I know, I still need to work on this. So I'm trying to not abandon myself but there is this deep sadness now I can't seem to shake off. I will check out the resources for secure selfsoothing on this forum. @introvert, I cannot exclude this may be the reason it ended. When he asked me that question i replied something like "well if the sex isn't good it's okay, it happens, we will move on". I remember an awkward silence afterwards but I didn't consider for even a second that he might be asking from that perspective you're talking about. But something tells me it's not. That other night when it happened I reassured him repeatedly. He even acknowledged and thanked me for that. He said he appreciated me reassuring him. So I don't think I have done anything to make him feel unsafe. It sucks because if you don't communicate there is no way things can be clarified and resolved. So even if it was the case that he felt unsafe as you say, still it is a basic relationship skill to try to address the issue with me. I understand there might be a lot of shame and insecurity going on, but still I don't want to be with someone that at the first misstep leaves me without communicating. I guess that's the real issue here. Anyway, it really helped reading your comment about personalizing and not being able to empathize when you're insecure. I think I understand very well what you mean and it's spot on. Can't wait to get to that level of clarity and genuine openness to the other. Insecurity makes us self-centered and impairs our capacity to give to others.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 13:17:45 GMT
Again, it's not about you, and what you did to make him feel safe or unsafe. The article doesn't mention the partners fault in how a man with ED feels. However, you also cant assume how he took your comment about moving on. Regardlessz the feelings are inherent with the condition.
When you approach situations from a "me" perspective, that can come across, people read you just as you read them.
Nevertheless, it's a learning experience.
You two had not built trust or any kind of intimacy that would enable you to work through deep issues, this literally happened in a month and the first time you had sex. Having an issue like this crop up early is a major challenge and if he didnt feel comfortable to proceed that's understandable IMHO. I think you expect too much too soon here in terms of his ability to address a major problem with you.
And to be honest I would never feel safe working through an issue with someone who is fearful, insecure, and looking for something to go wrong so they can take it personally and make it about them. I guarantee your lack of stability and safety comes across because your approach is insecure. This is not to bash you but just offer a perspective that there is more work to do and this is not time to give up.
Sure, communication is needed in order to navigate a relationship. But this is a very new dating situation between a couple of people with insecurity, and it's not personal that it fizzled when a problem came up. It's not like if he would have shared more vulnerability with you it would have fixed your insecurity. You're describing dating as a very scary experience and you won't get what you're seeking from that place. Your fears will be actualized and reciprocated actually.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 3, 2023 17:56:48 GMT
annes, again, you're on the right track. There is a lot of thoughtfulness in your reply in which you're recognizing but challenging your own patterns, which is a good spot to be at. Yes, it can seem like it's taking a long time to see changes, but that's normal. It took a long time for your insecure attachment style to develop once too, so reconditioning your nervous system can't happen overnight. Learning to fully process emotions as they come and "un-stick" yourself is a big undertaking, and you are moving forward by putting in the effort even if it seems slower than you'd prefer sometimes. Here's a link to my thread: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1723/trying-date-first-earned-secure
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Post by cherrycola on Oct 3, 2023 18:34:52 GMT
I get it is hard when you run into a guy with ED, not to take it personally, but I am going to give you another perspective. I have found the MORE a guy is into me and the better connection we have, the more likely he is going to struggle with ED and performance anxiety. My male friends have all said the same thing. It's also partly an age thing, as we age things don't work the same down there.
I've learned that anytime a guy can't perform I should ignore it, do other fun sexy things, and if they seem less enthused stop and cuddle or change the activity. This is the one time where I think communication is not needed. Many guys once you take the pressure off and show it's no biggy will deal with that anxiety on their own, often within the same session. Once I have showed them I am a safe place to have issues, they will bring it up in their own time and place.
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Post by mrob on Oct 3, 2023 18:57:14 GMT
First hand, ED is cruel for both parties. What’s really cruel is that in my 20s, sex was considered a chore for most women, now in my 40s, they really want penetrative sex. While one can build their repertoire, at the end of the day, that is still a special type of communion. For me, now that it’s gone from unreliable to non existent, at least I know where I am, and am ok with it. While I know the problem women have with it is theirs intellectually, as was said above, emotionally it’s devastating.
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annes
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Post by annes on Oct 3, 2023 20:04:38 GMT
Thanks again everyone for sharing your perspectives. Definitely food for thought. I'm seeing the discussion leaning towards the assumption that ED was certainly the problem. But how can we tell? He said it wasn't about us being intimate, despite the timing seemed to suggest that. He said he thought we were probably more friends and needed time to figure that out. While I understand why you are thinking it's because of ED, which is definitely possible, maybe it's something completely different. I'll add that seeing him as struggling with shame for ED doesn't help me move on, I guess I'm trying to find other reasons to help me do it.
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Post by cherrycola on Oct 3, 2023 20:45:58 GMT
Sorry, I think my post was incomplete. I think that while ED may have contributed to it, you are correct. It wasn't the entire picture and regardless, ANYTIME a man pulls the f word out in early dating I would nope out myself. I don't really care why he isn't feeling it, I just listen to the fact he isn't. I've had one guy just do a total 180 after being super enthusiastic and great dates and I was like thanks! bye! I did not argue or even seek to understand I just knew the very fact he said that was enough information.
I understand how confusing it can be for someone to say they want a relationship, and things seem to be going good and then they don't but I think it is important to remember that no one owes us a relationship no matter what they say or do. That they can nope out at anytime, even after commitment and it isn't usually about us personally. In fact I would say the fact he did this so quickly was a great thing, it means you don't have to continue to spend your energy on him. He saw something(s) he didn't think was a match and it gave him pause to consider, and besides being distant to process, he was honest. He didn't ghost you, etc.
There is a ton of good to focus on here from this experience. You showed up as you, and set boundaries you needed around intimacy. For whatever reason he changed his mind and when he expressed something that didn't match with what you wanted, you noped out.
If you haven't I highly recommend the baggage reclaim podcasts. She has some great ones around the relationship stages in early dating and not getting overly invested in the early stages.
It is a balancing act but I think overtime you learn how to be warm and enthusiastic while keeping a mind to enjoying the process to seeing if this person is a good long term match.
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Post by mrob on Oct 3, 2023 22:53:07 GMT
I’ve just reread, and not wanting to harp on about ED, but early on, it really messed with my head. I really questioned myself and gave myself a whipping over something I couldn’t control.
I understand this doesn’t help you in your journey of moving on, but I’d say it would be at least some part of the momentum being lost, which is a him problem.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 23:38:00 GMT
I second the baggage Reclaim recommendation. She talks alot about the discovery stage during which it's too soon to be investing, or building expectations for the longterm
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