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Post by maxymax on Nov 21, 2023 15:17:36 GMT
I (33M) took a lot of time to try to get over the trauma of my last break up.
I thought time, getting in shape, starting a new career, getting a new apartment, trying new hobbies, getting disciplined, time off from dating, all these things would lead to more feelings of higher self value, confidence, etc. and put me in a better position mentally and emotionally than I was a few years ago.
Well turns out, I was pretty wrong.
I met M (25F) this past February while on vacation in Southeast Asia. She lives in Europe. We stayed in touch, talking every single day, turns out she has a boyfriend, but we continue talking every day, 2 months after meeting, she came to visit me for a few days.
While she was here, we had a good time together. I wouldn't say it was anything beyond imagination incredible, but we got along really well, and had some good times.
I feel like any normal guy after meeting her in SE Asia, would have just stopped talking to her, she lives on the other side of the world and has a boyfriend. But one of the big problems here for me is, I'm not sure if I'm really into this girl or I just really like that she's so into me. So I kept talking to her and she visited and all that.
Now instead of saying, ok she visited, we had our fun, now it's over, we kept talking every single day. 6 months later and she visited me again for 2 weeks.
Again, we had a really good time together and we did a bunch of fun things. I very much enjoyed having her here overall. But again, it wasn't like the most amazing time ever. But also, that fireworks fairytale stuff isn't necessarily a requirement for something to work or even healthy. Sometimes it felt like I had to try really hard to keep conversations going. Plenty of instances I'd look around at people out at bars or on dates and they'd be having non stop conversation flowing, with her, sometimes it was a bit hard. Overall, had a really good time with her, did some great things together.
This is all a very shortened version to say, I don't know what the hell I'm doing or to think.
It feels like it's at the point where either we're going to start an actual long distance relationship or we need to end whatever this is.
But it really breaks my heart and makes me really sad to think about ending whatever this is with her.
At the same time, I try to remind myself, however, maybe falsely, that none of this is real.
I tell myself that I most likely only feel any of this because I like the way she makes me feel about myself. I like that she likes me, I like that she thinks I'm attractive. It's all validation.
She's significantly younger than me, which wouldn't be a problem, but 25 is still very young in terms of maturity and life experience.
When we're physically together, I don't feel like we have the most amazing, incredible time, with endless flowing, easy conversation.
When she was here for 2 weeks, it wasn't real life, it was a vacation from life. I worked half days to spend time doing things with her, we went to multiple big events, went out for lunches and dinners every day and night.
I also can't help but to draw parallels between her and my last ex. Very strong attraction to each other, have fun together, but my ex was unavailable in a way I couldn't see at the time and also somebody I should have not dated to begin with. M is unavailable in the sense that she's in a relationship and also lives in Europe. My ex is very artsy and free spirited and bubbly and adventurous and I think part of me wanted to have that in my life. M, while I wouldn't say she's artsy, is somewhat free spirited and very adventurous. She loves hiking, sports, traveling, but has a more stable career than my ex. And it makes me think, here I am again, interested in wanting to be in this girl's world rather than bring her into mine. They're both younger by a few years.
I also don't find myself attracted to or interested enough in other girls very often at all. Or maybe, I just don't find girls that are attracted/interested enough in me very often and that's why when it does happen, I pursue those situations and think I don't find connections often.
I'm just not sure what I'm even really feeling here.
Do I actually connect with and really like this girl and want to try to be with her and all these things are just excuses I tell myself to keep myself safe from getting hurt again or is this just old patterns showing up again and I'm just desperately clinging onto validation from a girl I'm attracted to but should have nothing to do with?
Really truly breaks my heart to think about not talking to her anymore or ever seeing her again, but maybe that's just my anxious attachment rearing it's anxious head.
No idea what I'm doing 🙄
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Post by cherrycola on Nov 21, 2023 16:18:14 GMT
It can be confusing when we find ourselves in these situations with long distance people but you seem pretty grounded in reality right now.
You aren't looking at some fantasy version of her or your future. So maybe it would be easier to look at this as a need fulfilment issue.
We are all human and all need connection. It's nice to have someone to chat with. It's one of the things I miss the most about being with someone. I actually only just recently met an online penpal that I've known for 15 years. It was never more than that. Just someone I chatted with.
Maybe ask yourself, why does it have to escalate? Are your conversations overly intimate ? Is this something her bf should be taking issue with?
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Post by alexandra on Nov 21, 2023 17:25:08 GMT
maxymax Doing all you've done to work on your self-esteem since your last breakup are great steps, but they are also only part of the equation. One of the issues with AP insecure attachment is you had trauma at some point earlier in your life that doesn't allow you to fully emotionally process things without getting stuck. Which in turn makes you emotionally unavailable and repeating the same relationship patterns with unavailable women. The work towards self-esteem boost helps put you in a stronger mindset to do the other piece of the work, which is start to address painful childhood dynamics, process through them, and begin to heal. You have a pretty realistic grasp on what's actually going on here, and I recommend you flip your perspective as well to see it from this woman's point of view. She's in a long term relationship yet is having an affair with you: you, who are just as far away from her and unavailable as her logistically. Which makes you a safer way for her to keep one foot out of her relationship with her boyfriend without having to commit to you in any way. And she's younger so perhaps less mature than you. That's the kind of woman you want to escalate a relationship with? People who aren't interested in changing will eventually treat you the same way as their past partners, so that sounds pretty risky if you're looking for something serious or stable. Instead, you're both enjoying the vacation aspect and how it allows you to avoid true commitment, vulnerability, and accountability to both each other and to yourselves. You're still avoiding something within yourself. It's HARD to get there and face those internal layers, because there's a lot of pain within and insecure attachment is a defense mechanism that tries to insulate you from that pain. Except if you remain insulated, it never goes away, like having a broken arm that never got properly set. You're always having an ache and some of your movement of the arm restricted, but maybe instead you can address it head on. In that example it could mean getting a medical procedure done that is more painful and has some recovery time but that leads to your arm fully healing without constant low level pain, and you regain a fuller range of motion.
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Post by maxymax on Nov 21, 2023 17:39:45 GMT
It can be confusing when we find ourselves in these situations with long distance people but you seem pretty grounded in reality right now. You aren't looking at some fantasy version of her or your future. So maybe it would be easier to look at this as a need fulfilment issue. We are all human and all need connection. It's nice to have someone to chat with. It's one of the things I miss the most about being with someone. I actually only just recently met an online penpal that I've known for 15 years. It was never more than that. Just someone I chatted with. Maybe ask yourself, why does it have to escalate? Are your conversations overly intimate ? Is this something her bf should be taking issue with? Appreciate the response! I wasn't trying to get into too many details or be too explicit but yes this relationship with M is intimate. (Please don't judge me) While I'm obviously confused about my feelings, hence the post, I know she definitely has feelings for me. However unrealistic, I know we've both considered how or if this could actually work as a real relationship. (she's told me she has, so not just assuming or inferring). I think I feel there is a need to escalate or end it because if it's not going anywhere, what's the point? What's the point in being emotionally invested in something with no future? Even though I'm not really interested in dating again, this is just an extra reason to not get back to dating for me. It's probably holding her back in some ways as well which doesn't seem fair. Yet at the same time, maybe we don't escalate this and we continue just talking, although maybe not every day, and when we're both able to travel, we can go see each other and enjoy each other's company that way. People have arrangements like that all the time. The distance is something that is appealing to me in a way. I don't need to be concerned all of the time with somebody else and our relationship and all that comes with it. There's a bit of an off and on switch to it in a way. All this thinking and feeling and nonsense is why I've stayed away from dating 🙄 Maybe I just let this run it's course, enjoy it while I can, and at some point one of us will say ok, this is enough of this it can't go on anymore and that's when it'll end. |
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Post by cherrycola on Nov 22, 2023 2:42:51 GMT
You buried the lead there. I agree with pretty much everything alexandra said this is not the person for you and why would you want to set yourself up for that much turmoil. Is there some romantic narrative that you are telling yourself here? You are correct that further emotional investment in this would be unwise. I only recommend penpals if she is aware it will go nowhere and you can honestly say to yourself it won't impact the rest of your life. Otherwise may be best to cut ties for a bit. A secure person would have set boundaries around this long ago and kept things on a plutonic level or moved on. As I've become more secure I'm more about to keep things plutonic with people who in the past I may have tried to escalate with. I don't need to chase validation or unavailable people to the same degree. |
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Post by maxymax on Nov 22, 2023 20:22:02 GMT
maxymax Doing all you've done to work on your self-esteem since your last breakup are great steps, but they are also only part of the equation. One of the issues with AP insecure attachment is you had trauma at some point earlier in your life that doesn't allow you to fully emotionally process things without getting stuck. Which in turn makes you emotionally unavailable and repeating the same relationship patterns with unavailable women. The work towards self-esteem boost helps put you in a stronger mindset to do the other piece of the work, which is start to address painful childhood dynamics, process through them, and begin to heal. You have a pretty realistic grasp on what's actually going on here, and I recommend you flip your perspective as well to see it from this woman's point of view. She's in a long term relationship yet is having an affair with you: you, who are just as far away from her and unavailable as her logistically. Which makes you a safer way for her to keep one foot out of her relationship with her boyfriend without having to commit to you in any way. And she's younger so perhaps less mature than you. That's the kind of woman you want to escalate a relationship with? People who aren't interested in changing will eventually treat you the same way as their past partners, so that sounds pretty risky if you're looking for something serious or stable. Instead, you're both enjoying the vacation aspect and how it allows you to avoid true commitment, vulnerability, and accountability to both each other and to yourselves. You're still avoiding something within yourself. It's HARD to get there and face those internal layers, because there's a lot of pain within and insecure attachment is a defense mechanism that tries to insulate you from that pain. Except if you remain insulated, it never goes away, like having a broken arm that never got properly set. You're always having an ache and some of your movement of the arm restricted, but maybe instead you can address it head on. In that example it could mean getting a medical procedure done that is more painful and has some recovery time but that leads to your arm fully healing without constant low level pain, and you regain a fuller range of motion. You definitely bring up a great point by suggesting to look at things from her perspective. Hadn't thought of that. I think I know that there is absolutely no real future here, although I do think about if it could work some times. I don't know if somebody more secure would just end it even with that realization or if somebody secure also likes the feeling of being wanted and attractive and enjoys the conversation and attention and all that. I'd like to just enjoy it for what it is. Maybe we see each other every few months in random places on random trips and those be some fun experiences to have. But maybe that's not the best idea. I don't know 🤷♂️ |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 22, 2023 21:44:58 GMT
I'm secure now but I was textbook AP for most of my life. The answer is, someone secure doesn't let things escalate in the first place with someone unavailable. Almost everyone enjoys feelings wanted and having good companionship, regardless of their attachment style, but a secure person doesn't need to feel validation from someone else in order to feel good, so that won't be a motivating factor to get involved with something that can't go anywhere. Sure, not every secure person is going to want something serious at every stage of their lives, but when you're coming from a place of security, the drive to be with someone else isn't from a place of fear or needing to fill internal holes. It's feeling okay within yourself and wanting but not needing a partner. There's no, you complete me, but there is, I'm already complete and want to share that with someone else who is also complete, because it'll be great. There's a bigger emphasis on compatibility and availability more than anything else, once you're past the initial honeymoon period. This all gains more nuance when you also factor in personality and someone's character, if they're overall a decent person or a selfish person, but from an attachment standpoint that's a general description of how it feels.
When I was AP, sparks flew with trauma bonding, longing, the anxious and avoidant pairing push/pull, codependency, and wanting to feel chosen (because I wasn't connected enough with myself to know my identity on my own and self-regulate emotions). I have taking my own missteps in choosing partners and relationships out of insecurity and need, including some long distance situations that masked mutual lack of availability until we tried to bridge the distance. You need to decide what's best for you, but part of that decision is deciding if not seeing each other anymore will let you heal and move on or if you're scared to let go because the idea of disconnection of any sort is painful for APs and floods your nervous system with anxiety. Because in those cases, you may want to stay in touch, and stay stuck, to avoid that pain of disconnection, but then you're just kicking the can down the road. Nothing will grow, and you'll still need to deal with the pain of disconnection later, which might be even more painful than dealing with it now. But knowing there's pain ahead will still make you want to avoid it if you can't see and endure and process that there's a way through the pain, which makes you stronger on the other side.
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Post by maxymax on Nov 27, 2023 17:57:48 GMT
I'm secure now but I was textbook AP for most of my life. The answer is, someone secure doesn't let things escalate in the first place with someone unavailable. Almost everyone enjoys feelings wanted and having good companionship, regardless of their attachment style, but a secure person doesn't need to feel validation from someone else in order to feel good, so that won't be a motivating factor to get involved with something that can't go anywhere. Sure, not every secure person is going to want something serious at every stage of their lives, but when you're coming from a place of security, the drive to be with someone else isn't from a place of fear or needing to fill internal holes. It's feeling okay within yourself and wanting but not needing a partner. There's no, you complete me, but there is, I'm already complete and want to share that with someone else who is also complete, because it'll be great. There's a bigger emphasis on compatibility and availability more than anything else, once you're past the initial honeymoon period. This all gains more nuance when you also factor in personality and someone's character, if they're overall a decent person or a selfish person, but from an attachment standpoint that's a general description of how it feels. When I was AP, sparks flew with trauma bonding, longing, the anxious and avoidant pairing push/pull, codependency, and wanting to feel chosen (because I wasn't connected enough with myself to know my identity on my own and self-regulate emotions). I have taking my own missteps in choosing partners and relationships out of insecurity and need, including some long distance situations that masked mutual lack of availability until we tried to bridge the distance. You need to decide what's best for you, but part of that decision is deciding if not seeing each other anymore will let you heal and move on or if you're scared to let go because the idea of disconnection of any sort is painful for APs and floods your nervous system with anxiety. Because in those cases, you may want to stay in touch, and stay stuck, to avoid that pain of disconnection, but then you're just kicking the can down the road. Nothing will grow, and you'll still need to deal with the pain of disconnection later, which might be even more painful than dealing with it now. But knowing there's pain ahead will still make you want to avoid it if you can't see and endure and process that there's a way through the pain, which makes you stronger on the other side. A lot of different things here resonate with me. Thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't feel like I need a partner. In fact, I basically haven't been dating much if at all the last couple of years. I'm not the type that needs to be with somebody or always wants to be in a relationship or always wants somebody. That said, I know I don't feel great about myself. I've actually been considering antidepressants at this point. I think I'm scared to let go for many reasons. I do really enjoy having her to text with each day and FaceTime with when we get the chance to do that. It's nice talking to her about my days and what's going on and hearing the same from her. She makes me laugh and smile. I care about her and her wellbeing. I would deeply miss talking to her every day. I'm pretty sure that part of all of this, as I said, is the validation and liking the way she makes me feel. I don't date much, I don't feel attracted to/connected to somebody often and yes it has been so so nice having her want to talk to me every day, desire me, being attracted to me. Things aren't always deeply depressive for me, but I'm fairly apathetic most of the time, despite my best efforts, and the joy that's come along with her being in my life has been really nice. But yes, if I sit here and truly think, more than just a fleeting thought, about the ramifications of ending things between us, thinking about never seeing her again, thinking about never speaking again, that this person who has become very important to me the last 9 months will just vanish from my life, I get very upset and anxious. Definitely feel heartbroken just thinking about that. But I'm not even sure about the desire to be in a real relationship after her, so what am I ending this for? Part of that is because I'm unhappy with myself, part of that is because I don't want to get hurt again (which might hurt less if I could ever feel good about myself), part of it is I'm rather selfish right now (which I guess is because I'm unhappy with myself) (starting to see a pattern here haha), part of it is I'm not sure relationships are worth it in this day and age. Maybe I don't need to end something that can continue to be casual as long as I go seek some help and hopefully start feeling better about myself. While I've known for a while I need to work on my mental health, writing this stream of consciousness as made it clear that my lack of self esteem and confidence is the reason for so many things |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 27, 2023 22:18:10 GMT
maxymax, while I'm sure you do care about her, it does also sound like you're using her as a crutch to a certain extent. But the solution you've come up with sounds like a good way to move forward: you don't need to cut her out right this minute, and seeking some mental health help may shift your perceptive on some things and help you better figure out what you really want. So instead of making a binary decision about her right now (either escalate the relationship or cut her out), make whatever appointment you need to and can afford to start working on your mental health, chat with her as a friend (maybe don't schedule any in person visits for a little while though), and check in with yourself again in a couple months to see where you're at. I support you thinking about taking those really great first steps to seek some help!
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