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Post by mysteryuser on Jan 15, 2024 3:07:17 GMT
Long standing AP after having worked on a huge part of my abandonment wound, I'm much better able to calm down when I'm activated, and remind myself that I don't want someone who does not want to be with me. I'm able to communicate more clearly, ask for what I want, and sit back and let things play out while dating. However, I think I'm now suffering from some FA tendencies like using criticism to deactivate, not trusting others, and being more consciously afraid of committing (because I'm afraid of the shame of making yet another wrong decision). Given that this is a result of the "healing" from my deep-rooted AP tendencies and not directly linked to trauma, I know it's.a more shallow coping mechanism as I transition out of my APness.
Currently my fears include "what if I commit to the wrong person?", "this person did X which is a Y trait showing that they aren't secure, I should end this", "I'm not compatible with this person" (for every small thing), etc. I'm having a hard time navigating this, because I have never felt this way before. I feel like I have one foot out the door all the time.
Sigh. This stuff is hard enough
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Post by alexandra on Jan 15, 2024 4:53:36 GMT
It's okay to recognize that you're still in your healing process and it may not be the right time to seriously date anyone. It's perfectly okay to spend some time focusing on yourself, doing things you like to build up your trust in yourself and confidence (which in turn makes you less worried about committing to the wrong person because you have a good sense of self, boundaries, and agency), spending time with friends and people who don't make you feel disregulated, and revisit dating in a couple months and check in with how it makes you feel and if you're coming at it from a better place. Dipping your toe into dating to see if you're in a better mindset and then dipping back out for a couple months and trying again later is perfectly okay while you navigate this. There's no rush to force yourself when you're still figuring out who you are, especially since you are still young and have time to explore all these new feelings and perspectives.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 16, 2024 3:48:51 GMT
Long standing AP after having worked on a huge part of my abandonment wound, I'm much better able to calm down when I'm activated, and remind myself that I don't want someone who does not want to be with me. I'm able to communicate more clearly, ask for what I want, and sit back and let things play out while dating. However, I think I'm now suffering from some FA tendencies like using criticism to deactivate, not trusting others, and being more consciously afraid of committing (because I'm afraid of the shame of making yet another wrong decision). Given that this is a result of the "healing" from my deep-rooted AP tendencies and not directly linked to trauma, I know it's.a more shallow coping mechanism as I transition out of my APness.
Currently my fears include "what if I commit to the wrong person?", "this person did X which is a Y trait showing that they aren't secure, I should end this", "I'm not compatible with this person" (for every small thing), etc. I'm having a hard time navigating this, because I have never felt this way before. I feel like I have one foot out the door all the time.
Sigh. This stuff is hard enough
I do believe there is a natural “swing” that happens….i don’t view it as becoming FA because in the FA attachment, both anxious and avoidant behaviors are present. I think what you are describing is a natural progression of discovering boundaries (at times, they will come across as walls) and learning to value yourself more….which naturally results in some distrust of others initially. I agree with alexandra….there is no need to date right now. In fact, I would encourage you to appreciate this new found space without adding the complexities of dating. Over time, as you grow more comfortable with being who you are and knowing you are ok….you will gradually move to boundaries that are more flexible…and be able to trust others and their intentions.
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 16, 2024 4:10:28 GMT
I've read from a few sources that a trip thru DA territory is very common as someone works on their APness. I wish I had more advice for you as I am struggling with that same thing right now. While in some ways it has balanced out and I am more able to communicate and set boundaries in other ways I tend to inadvertently slam up walls when I am triggered. Maybe it's just a matter of for the first time in your life you are finally able to hear and feel your boundaries and feelings but your body doesn't really know much what to do with them. So every little thing is RED ALERT. All you can do is tiptoe out, gather information, regroup and take pauses as needed.
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Post by mysteryuser on Jan 17, 2024 2:25:39 GMT
I've read from a few sources that a trip thru DA territory is very common as someone works on their APness. I wish I had more advice for you as I am struggling with that same thing right now. While in some ways it has balanced out and I am more able to communicate and set boundaries in other ways I tend to inadvertently slam up walls when I am triggered. Maybe it's just a matter of for the first time in your life you are finally able to hear and feel your boundaries and feelings but your body doesn't really know much what to do with them. So every little thing is RED ALERT. All you can do is tiptoe out, gather information, regroup and take pauses as needed. Yes, this is me. I will quit dating for a while, especially since I made this post after having hurt someone in this process - I behaved in ways I always despised in others (nothing intentional/deliberate, but I just could not trust someone who tried for a while to earn my trust, and he could tell I couldn't trust him). And yeah, right now every thing is RED ALERT, and I can't tell the difference between genuine red flags and things I'm blowing up in my head. I have little to no trust in myself. I'm glad about the progress I'm making, but I've reached a dead-end. I trust myself blindly when it comes to other parts of my life and my therapist has recommended making a list of the ways in which I can trust my gut.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2024 14:01:19 GMT
I definitely have gone through more anxious/fa perspectives and strategies while moving from da toward secure... it goes both ways and it's because we have all those strategies in us as insecure attachers. I guess as some strategies become less prominent others arise as coping mechanisms because we are less aware of them or they are our shadow or something. Anyway, I found this video by Thais to share with you, I didn't watch it but recalled that she has some good stuff. Maybe it will be helpful as you step back and do some more self discovery. 🤔 youtu.be/L6MCRQYWbok?si=CJZJoWrTanldTFJR
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Post by bricktopg on Jan 22, 2024 16:10:24 GMT
Some passing thoughts and insights from someone that seems to be going through similar experiences. I have been dating a bit recently, as a means to explore how I feel around people, what my body feels, where it feels it, how I trust it or not trust it, how I present to others, how others perceive me, probing what the dating landscape is like. I also know that if I cross paths with someone that is good for me now, I will recognize them.
- The anxious attachment is called preoccupied but also ambivalent for a reason. All insecure people use strategies to protect themselves from potential hurt. I haven’t felt too critical of people but I do feel my finger fidgeting over a red button that it wants to push as soon as something feels off. All schemas can also trigger avoidant coping methods, including the schemas associated with anxious attachment. Having some avoidant coping strategies doesn’t make you a DA or an FA. Having a foot out the door in the beginning doesn’t show you are FA, it just shows you’re afraid of getting hurt again. Which is understandable after an FA textbook experience. From my understanding predominantly FA people use avoidant strategies when triggered from secure connection and intimacy later down the road because they fear enmeshment in addition to abandonment, which does not seem to be your case right now. I also feel the need to jettison everything before it even starts because I am too afraid of making a mistake again. Or I’m too afraid I won’t have the strength to disconnect if the situation proves unhealthy later down the line, because I don’t trust myself enough just yet as you mentioned. But never without an actual hint that the other person actually is in some way unavailable.
- You don’t owe a commitment to explore a connection with anyone unless you’re in a committed relationship with them. Not even someone that tries to get to know you or is insistant on giving you abundant love. You deal with your side, they deal with theirs. You are where you are at and you’re allowed to date around as long as you like without committing to anyone as long as you’re not leading them on, you remain respectful and are not playing hot and cold. A lot of people chased me when they felt my doubts or need to go slower. A lot of people felt I owed them something because they were ready to give me something. It is up to them to figure out why they did this when they sensed someone unavailable to them, and up to me to figure out my side of the equation.
- Online dating has A LOT of insecure and unavailable people. You might be feeling like your defenses are set too high, but it could also be that you don’t trust your gut enough when something feels off. Maybe it’s a bit of both? Even the most secure acting person would tell you that online dating is very tough and discouraging when looking for a life partner, be careful not to treat it as a big beautiful basket full of ripe fruit, and attacking yourself because you can’t find your match immediately. My sister is the most secure person I have consistent access to and she’s in a very healthy 15 year marriage with two kids. I’ve been talking to her a lot and we’ve been discussing things over. Most often when I would mention to her something my date said that triggered doubt or that mostly made me feel guilty for being hypervigilant, she would in the span of 2 seconds tell me that what my date said was a turn off. She would straight up tell me “who says that stuff”, whereas I had spent 2 days analyzing why my date said that thing, what kind of unavailability could it hide, am I being too sensitive, am I now FA, was I always FA, am I actually DA? Hello preoccupation! I neglected to ask myself if I’m attracted or turned off by what she said and do I want a life partner that would say this kind of thing. I realized that the main difference between me and her, is that she trusts herself a lot more than I trust myself. She completely bypasses the phase of “what’s wrong with me for feeling that way and not giving that person a chance even though they seem to be into me” and goes to “this person doesn’t feel safe, up to my standards of emotional availability, or I straight up don’t like what they said (values mismatch?)”. Being secure doesn’t mean you’re giving a chance to anyone that might give you the time of day or that doesn’t have big glaring avoidant red flags. It can mean you sort people you want to be with or without faster and more importantly, without shame. Maybe you do have your filters set to too high. So what? It doesn’t matter, that’s where you are right now, maybe that’s where you need to be while you’re dipping your toe back in dating.
- It seems you might have found a new stick to hit yourself with, first for your attachment and now for your healing? I try to remember to talk to myself with the ultimate love and understanding, at any stage. Sentences like “It makes sense I’m a bit on edge and hypervigilant, with one foot out the door at all times, I’ve been and have been going through a lot, I was blindsided, I might be wary of this or that and I’ll figure it out in time. I’m proud of turning inwards, I want to heal and honor myself and I know the road to security is rough. I’m dating as a means of self discovery and exploring connection. I know I will recognize a secure partner and someone good for me for what I’m going through now, when we cross paths.”
- I too have been struggling with the shame of potentially making a wrong decision, so I understand your struggle. I try to ask myself questions like: Why do I care so much about what people will think of me for having another failed relationship or worse, getting left again? Why do I link my worth to my relationship status? Why do I feel my value is linked with someone outwardly proclaiming love to me, as if it was proof that I’m worthy of love? The more I love myself, the more the love glows, the more people that know me are in awe of my pursuit, the less I feel the shame.
- In this preoccupied mindset of potential shame and impending doom, I usually fail to take into account some important things. Such as the slowly emerging realization that even though my last two relationships ended by the other party, they ended at the point they ended because I started protecting my boundaries and started to refuse to play part in the insecure dynamics, not the opposite. They ended because my rising security was threatening them, not the opposite. The fact that people don’t judge me for people leaving me, and if they do, it says more about them and their maturity level. The fact that few people around me actually have the relationship I’m looking and holding out for. I have found that flipping it from a victimized position to an empowered one helps a lot. Flipping it from “I got abandoned again or I always get abandoned” to “I’m and adult, I can’t get abandoned, I’m learning how to love and show up for myself, learning how to build secure connection, learning how to chose a right partner, and in that process if someone leaves something healthy it will say more about them then it will say about me”. Flipping it from “People are judging me for not being in a long term relationship” to “People that matter are inspired by my pursuit of healing and my search for a healthy relationship“. Flipping it from “Why does everyone seem to be in relationships except me” to “I’d rather have no relationship at all than to start or stay in an unhealthy one”. Flipping it from “Everyone around me seems to be in secure relationships except me” to “Security and happiness is not a zero sum game, I don’t know what other people are going through, I don’t know how healthy other relationships are, I’m doing my utmost best and showing up for myself in my worthy pursuit to security etc”.
- The often used “A secure person would” is a fallacy to me. There is only “A secure ME would”. Don’t guilt yourself for not being this mythical creature called secure. The way I see it now is that there are people that are acting from predominantly secure places or predominantly insecure places. I’d say the thing you need to focus on now is if you’re acting by and listening to your CURRENT needs and setting and protecting your CURRENT boundaries, and not acting out of unfounded fear. In time this will get ingrained and automatic, but you’re already acting secure if you do that in a sense.
- I feel my anxiously attached parts try to use my newly found greater awareness and security as a covert attempt to control the uncontrollable under a guise of “now I have no excuse for not picking right”. The truth is you can’t control if your next relationship is going to be your last one, be it with a secure person or not. I think most secure people don’t even think about recognizing someone secure, or don’t actually have a greater ability to pick the right partner. They just know when they’re put off by something, they know how to leave unhealthy situations and they tend to bring things to a head faster by asking for their needs to be met or protecting their boundaries. So basically the healthy secure relationships you see don’t exist because they knew how to pick the right partner like a target they were looking for, they are just the relationships that stuck between two secure people after going through the rest faster till they got lucky.
- My therapist told me that my goal of wanting to heal, to face and end the multigenerational trauma of my family, to build a mutually committed, happy and safe connection with someone is ambitious. Don’t forget that. It feels hard, because well, it is! And you’re doing this because you want this for yourself and you’re starting to believe you’re worth it.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 22, 2024 20:14:04 GMT
Online dating has A LOT of insecure and unavailable people. You might be feeling like your defenses are set too high, but it could also be that you don’t trust your gut enough when something feels off. Maybe it’s a bit of both? Even the most secure acting person would tell you that online dating is very tough and discouraging when looking for a life partner, be careful not to treat it as a big beautiful basket full of ripe fruit, and attacking yourself because you can’t find your match immediately. I totally agree with this. I've said it before, but I did so so much online dating. I'm going to share some numbers here, if that helps anyone. Once I was educated on attachment and could define these things, I'd estimate only about 30% of the people I met up with on first dates were secure. The rest were insecure, maybe 40-50% were avoidant and 20%-30% were anxious. And then of those 30% secure, I was not attracted to nor compatible with all of them. Let's say I went on 10 dates: 5 were avoidant, 2 were anxious, 3 were secure. Of those 3, I connected well with 1. That means, as a numbers game, only 10% of the people I went out with might be a good match. And this is out of the pool of people I actually met, not all the people I spoke to and filtered out without meeting. It is by no means hopeless, but there are numbers and luck involved, and you'll meet a lot of bad matches along the way. That's totally normal and nothing to beat yourself up about or blame yourself for. Online dating isn't a speed run... at least not unless you're extremely lucky! I think most secure people don’t even think about recognizing someone secure, or don’t actually have a greater ability to pick the right partner. They just know when they’re put off by something, they know how to leave unhealthy situations and they tend to bring things to a head faster by asking for their needs to be met or protecting their boundaries. So basically the healthy secure relationships you see don’t exist because they knew how to pick the right partner like a target they were looking for, they are just the relationships that stuck between two secure people after going through the rest faster till they got lucky. I don't totally agree with this. I think that with life / dating experience and the emotional maturity that comes from experience, people on the more secure side of things do have a greater ability to pick a good partner (though they're not consciously thinking about it as finding someone with a secure attachment style). But it's for a simpler reason that you actually said at the very beginning of your comment: they're able to recognize it when a good match does show up. It requires connection to self and trust in self to know what you actually want out of a relationship (plus the lived experience to know what it is you want after trying different things out), and it does require some of that luck in meeting a compatible person. Anyone can do that, they don't need to be completely secure, just self-aware and comfortable when a good person shows up. That can be the challenge for insecures, as emotional stability in another person can feel unfamiliar or boring rather than attractive, but choosing better can definitely be learned with awareness and experience. That's also not intended to invalidate this comment, because it still takes time to get to know someone. So it's definitely not a perspective of, with awareness there's no excuse not to get it right. People are complicated and you learn more as you spend time together, sometimes that will work out and sometimes not. You also learn from all the people you meet and dates you go on, so it's not a failure and doesn't need to be pressure on yourself if you're not finding the right person on an arbitrary schedule of expectations you've set for yourself. Which is why I suggested a break to the OP, because focusing on yourself to break out of those expectations for yourself helps create better connections once you've checked in with yourself and are ready to try again. That doesn't make lots of bad dates in a row any less frustrating or annoying, but it does take some of the fear-based decision making pressure off. And fear (fear that isn't because the potential partner is giving off real red flags, at least) gets in the way of building good connections.
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Post by mysteryuser on Jan 24, 2024 1:24:22 GMT
This was VERY insightful and it was helpful to know I am not alone. Most of these thoughts mirror mine. Most often when I would mention to her something my date said that triggered doubt or that mostly made me feel guilty for being hypervigilant, she would in the span of 2 seconds tell me that what my date said was a turn off. She would straight up tell me “who says that stuff”, whereas I had spent 2 days analyzing why my date said that thing, what kind of unavailability could it hide, am I being too sensitive, am I now FA, was I always FA, am I actually DA? Hello preoccupation! I neglected to ask myself if I’m attracted or turned off by what she said and do I want a life partner that would say this kind of thing. I realized that the main difference between me and her, is that she trusts herself a lot more than I trust myself. She completely bypasses the phase of “what’s wrong with me for feeling that way and not giving that person a chance even though they seem to be into me” and goes to “this person doesn’t feel safe, up to my standards of emotional availability, or I straight up don’t like what they said (values mismatch?)”. Being secure doesn’t mean you’re giving a chance to anyone that might give you the time of day or that doesn’t have big glaring avoidant red flags. It can mean you sort people you want to be with or without faster and more importantly, without shame. Maybe you do have your filters set to too high. So what? It doesn’t matter, that’s where you are right now, maybe that’s where you need to be while you’re dipping your toe back in dating. - It seems you might have found a new stick to hit yourself with, first for your attachment and now for your healing? I try to remember to talk to myself with the ultimate love and understanding, at any stage. Sentences like “It makes sense I’m a bit on edge and hypervigilant, with one foot out the door at all times, I’ve been and have been going through a lot, I was blindsided, I might be wary of this or that and I’ll figure it out in time. I’m proud of turning inwards, I want to heal and honor myself and I know the road to security is rough. I’m dating as a means of self discovery and exploring connection. I know I will recognize a secure partner and someone good for me for what I’m going through now, when we cross paths.” My therapist recently asked me to make a list of all the ways in which I trust myself and compare it to how I show up in relationships. A big thread was, I don't second-guess my instinct/gut when it comes to friendships or career moves - both parts of my life I'm very happy about. I don't like someone's vibe and don't feel like hanging out? So be it. I don't make a big deal out of "oh I shouldn't be so judgmental.." or "oh maybe they're actually nice and I'm hypervigilant?". I just don't hang out with them, knowing that I'm not interested. But even when I have my instinct/gut reaction telling me something similar while dating, I override that. My roommate is also a close friend who is super secure and in a relationship of 5 years with her best friend. I have had similar moments of "oh maybe I should go on another date and give it a chance because I feel a bit guilty" and she says "well you barely know him, so what if you don't want to?" I agree it is yet another way for me to downplay my growth. The last person I was dating ended things because I didn't trust him, but I'm glad I stuck to my guns and didn't do something I didn't want to.
- In this preoccupied mindset of potential shame and impending doom, I usually fail to take into account some important things. Such as the slowly emerging realization that even though my last two relationships ended by the other party, they ended at the point they ended because I started protecting my boundaries and started to refuse to play part in the insecure dynamics, not the opposite. They ended because my rising security was threatening them, not the opposite. The fact that people don’t judge me for people leaving me, and if they do, it says more about them and their maturity level. The fact that few people around me actually have the relationship I’m looking and holding out for. I have found that flipping it from a victimized position to an empowered one helps a lot. Flipping it from “I got abandoned again or I always get abandoned” to “I’m and adult, I can’t get abandoned, I’m learning how to love and show up for myself, learning how to build secure connection, learning how to chose a right partner, and in that process if someone leaves something healthy it will say more about them then it will say about me”. Flipping it from “People are judging me for not being in a long term relationship” to “People that matter are inspired by my pursuit of healing and my search for a healthy relationship“. Flipping it from “Why does everyone seem to be in relationships except me” to “I’d rather have no relationship at all than to start or stay in an unhealthy one”. Flipping it from “Everyone around me seems to be in secure relationships except me” to “Security and happiness is not a zero sum game, I don’t know what other people are going through, I don’t know how healthy other relationships are, I’m doing my utmost best and showing up for myself in my worthy pursuit to security etc”. - The often used “A secure person would” is a fallacy to me. There is only “A secure ME would”. Don’t guilt yourself for not being this mythical creature called secure. The way I see it now is that there are people that are acting from predominantly secure places or predominantly insecure places. I’d say the thing you need to focus on now is if you’re acting by and listening to your CURRENT needs and setting and protecting your CURRENT boundaries, and not acting out of unfounded fear. In time this will get ingrained and automatic, but you’re already acting secure if you do that in a sense. - I feel my anxiously attached parts try to use my newly found greater awareness and security as a covert attempt to control the uncontrollable under a guise of “now I have no excuse for not picking right”. The truth is you can’t control if your next relationship is going to be your last one, be it with a secure person or not. I think most secure people don’t even think about recognizing someone secure, or don’t actually have a greater ability to pick the right partner. They just know when they’re put off by something, they know how to leave unhealthy situations and they tend to bring things to a head faster by asking for their needs to be met or protecting their boundaries. So basically the healthy secure relationships you see don’t exist because they knew how to pick the right partner like a target they were looking for, they are just the relationships that stuck between two secure people after going through the rest faster till they got lucky. Thank you for this, it has resonated with me and I needed to hear this. I've had many of these thoughts as well, and I do often second guess in ways I don't in other parts of life. and I'm first and foremost aiming to be authentic and true to myself. I had a bit of an epiphany the last few days after a lot of reading and some IFS work.
I am realizing how my childhood abandonment made me never want to show my true self to romantic partners because of two major core beliefs. 1) I don't believe I deserve committed love and 2) I felt if they left and I ended up alone "forever", it would mean I'm worthless.
This led me to either picking people who would never see my true self or put on all sorts of masks to hide my true self. Justifying things I didn't want/like because of the fear of confirming the 2 beliefs or the fear of my mask slipping. I put on a mask because, well, if I get abandoned, it's not even me! But the underlying feeling of my romantic abandonment being because there was something wrong with me never went away. The masks, the people, the agony, none of it made me happy. It wasn't me. But the parts of life I'm authentic in? I'm quite happy/satisfied.
I will not date for a bit yet, until I chip at these beliefs a bit, but I want to live more authentically. I know the risk of someone leaving or things not working out does not go away even if I'm authentic, but at least I'd be happier and not in agony.
I spoke to my therapist about this and mentioned I'm at a point where one or 3 people leaving would still mean I'd be fine, but I know I associate someone "choosing" me to marry me and have kids with as the ultimate "goal", and if no one were to do that, I'd feel like there was something wrong with me. But he pointed out a similar thing of me choosing to live more authentically will have two-fold benefits: 1) I gain enough self worth that eventually I will *not* feel how I think I will in the future 2) My authenticity would attract people who are better suited for me
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Post by alexandra on Jan 24, 2024 10:16:50 GMT
I know the risk of someone leaving or things not working out does not go away even if I'm authentic, but at least I'd be happier and not in agony. Yes, and even if someone does leave when you're authentic, it still doesn't reflect on your worth or value. All it reflects on is a lack of true compatibility, which is neutral and doesn't say anything bad (or good) about anyone, it just means you're different people. I spoke to my therapist about this and mentioned I'm at a point where one or 3 people leaving would still mean I'd be fine, but I know I associate someone "choosing" me to marry me and have kids with as the ultimate "goal", and if no one were to do that, I'd feel like there was something wrong with me. But he pointed out a similar thing of me choosing to live more authentically will have two-fold benefits: 1) I gain enough self worth that eventually I will *not* feel how I think I will in the future 2) My authenticity would attract people who are better suited for me I agree. Sounds like you've got a good therapist there
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