katy
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Posts: 147 
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Post by katy on May 7, 2016 23:00:15 GMT
Jeb's comment to jaeger:
"Most avoidants don't need any help to rationalize their disloyalty; they come up with a reason, no matter how far from reality, and fixate on it, absolving themselves of any blame."
Jeb,
I read your response to jaeger and it was as though a light bulb turned on. I know that I, and I suspect that other people on this forum, have questioned what happened with the avoidant, whether they did anything wrong, and whether anything could have been worked out to fix the situation. I try to learn from things that happen to me – I always want to understand what went wrong in situations so that I don't make the same error again. I have to admit that my dealings with an initially charming avoidant were very difficult to understand because I could never figure out what I had actually done to deserve his sudden, very repetitive assertions that I was “ruining” him.
I read your comment and it hit me like a thunderbolt. I realized that the whole situation with the avoidant I dealt with was based on his operating “rules” that are totally different from how I think and treat people, that the schism wasn't my fault, and that there wasn't anything that I could have done to fix the situation because he has become fixated on his avoidant reasons for his critical, rejecting behavior.
I admit that I feel a little slow on the uptake – I've read your books and Web site, participated in this forum, and read other articles on the Web. The piece that I kept missing was that, in spite of his seeming to be intelligent, charming, and articulate, he was basing all of our dealings on a completely different emotional frame from mine. After he became so accusing and rejecting, from my readings, I theoretically knew that he operated differently, but your comment laid out the different thought patterns very clearly so that I could easily see the similarity to what had happened to me.
I see now that my job in the future is to be aware that avoidants can exist and to be much more cautious, keeping my eyes open for tell-tale signs that somebody may be an avoidant. That's a huge change for me, because the positive behavior with the avoidant whom I dealt with lasted almost six months. I'm going to have to be much more cautious, for much longer than I had ever previously imagined was necessary.
Thank you again for your great insights and for this forum. I certainly have learned some very valuable life lessons.
Best wishes,
Katy
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Post by Jaeger on May 8, 2016 9:24:50 GMT
Hi Katy,
I must say that this has been my conclusion as well. The things I was hearing towards the end that she said made her want to break off the relationship was that I hadn't been there for our children and that she had been feeling this way for years and years; we were discussing moving into a new home not 2 months prior to this and there was no indication that anything had changed until after she cheated. That's when all the 'wrongs' in our relationship started popping up, with new ones added on a daily basis. The things she would say got increasingly personal and demeaning as well ("I don't respect you", "you should have acted like a man", "I don't find you attractive at all" and after the break "Being without you is like a breath of fresh air"). Looking back, it seemed designed to force a break as quickly as possible. Now knowing she ran right into the arms of another man makes this easier to understand for me. It looks like she needed reasons to break this off so she could be with him, wether the reasons were true or not.
I also think that attachment styles other than avoidant tend to reflect on these things deeply, as you've mentioned, and start to doubt themselves in a way that is disproportional. Causing confusion and self-doubt, in my experience, was one of the ways in which my ex-girlfriend controlled the terms of the relationship (the constant rejections while trying to get close and the criticism she would express whenever I tried made me doubt myself and eventually made me 'switch off' certain needs for closeness to be able to keep the relationship going, while still being accessible for all of her needs). It is also why I have to come to the conclusion that during all the time I was with her, I never felt I could truly be myself.
One of the most profound things I have realized is that a relationship dynamic (in this case, with a dismissive-avoidant)can change your attachment style towards that specific person. After all the criticism and especially towards the end, when ´panic-mode´ had set in and I was doing anything I could think of to salvage the relationship, I started to doubt myself and wonder if I, indeed, was too clingy and had caused this myself. Until I started examining my other relationships with important people in my life (also with the help of the test mentioned in Jeb's book) and found all of them to be of the secure variety. Even knowing all this, the doubts still surface sometimes, but with the knowledge I now have, along with the opinions of the therapist who treated us both and Mr. Kinnison and a lot of the people on these boards (thank you all for that!) I can remind myself of the reality of the situation. There is nothing I could have done to prevent this break from happening, and the steps I have taken before that point have very likely led to it lasting far longer than it otherwise would have. (This has been her longest relationship by far).
All of this has strengthened my views, which I already had going into this relationship, that true emotional connection is important to me, that building a relationship and growing together is my goal when I am in one, and that that needs open communication about thoughts and feelings and both people willing to put in the effort to achieve this. Being able to put another's needs ahead of your own at times. I still stand by all those things, and the only thing I would do differently is making sure the other person is willing and able to respond in kind next time. Most likely she was never as invested in the relationship as I was and even though I felt as much at various times throughout the relationship, I never cut things off when perhaps I should have. At the end of the day though, when I truly bond with someone, I feel it is for life and I will do anything I can to make it work. Now to find someone who can actually appreciate this and reciprocate. The true challenge will be to actually act upon the red flags that people will show you instead of doubting your feelings and continuing on regardless...
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
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Post by katy on May 8, 2016 14:34:31 GMT
jaeger,
Thanks for your insights. I am also normally relatively secure in most relationships. As the avoidant whom I knew turned against me, I also experienced a sort of panic reaction to fix things and try to get them back to "normal". For me, the power of Jeb's comment lies in the realization that an avoidant has no interest in fixing anything - the avoidant becomes fixated on his false, hyper-critical version of what happened and that's his new mindset.
This is so different from how I normally deal with other people. It's part of life that people have disagreements or that one person isn't pleased with how another person is acting. In my dealings with relatively well-adjusted, non-avoidant people, everybody's essential goal is to figure out what happened, to ensure that everybody's position is heard, and to work out a compromise so that the relationship can be salvaged. In the end, the goal is that everybody is OK with the compromise so that the relationship can carry on.
It hit me like a ton of bricks that I have been assuming that my frame of how relationships work also applied to the avoidant. I try to be fair and to take actions to improve relationships. I suddenly realized that the allegations that the avoidant, one day, out of the blue, made against me were false. I also clearly saw that he has no interest in fixing anything.
I suddenly saw that even though we were both speaking English, the framework of how we interact with the world is completely different.
It was in a very different context, but I was also accused by the avoidant whom I knew of being too clingy and dependent. He was very happy to tell me all about all of the people whom he suddenly needed to talk with for his business who were "grateful" for his attention, instead of me, because I was "ruining" him. So, the details may have been different, but the high-level theme seems similar to what happened to you.
I hope that you and your children can find some peace in the middle of your situation.
Best wishes,
Katy
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