joan
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Post by joan on Apr 6, 2018 6:34:23 GMT
I've read a ton of books, articles, these types of forums, been in therapy weekly, went to a Co-Dependents meeting, talked my family and friend's ear off, and yet I feel like I've gotten no closer to loving myself enough to walk away from this DA. He's exactly how my mom was, and he's made me feel exactly as she did. I get the whole psychology of it, but what does it take to walk away? I've had kids, been through heartbreak, divorce, and I know I could get over this although with much heartbreak, but what is it that I need to learn, or see or go through to let this go? He's been the most distant, rejecting, hurtful, and neglectful man I've ever been with, yet he's the hardest one to let go of. He could be the most warm, attentive, caring, giving, emotionally intuitive and perceptive person I've ever known, but at the drop of a hat he can be the most cruel, spiteful, hateful, rejecting and coldest person I've ever known, besides my mom of course. Something as small as me getting bummed out because he said he couldn't come over on the weekend because that's the only time I really get to spend time with him. He went off on me, told me hated my guts, I was the biggest loser he ever knew and on and on he went. I sat there like a fool begging for his forgiveness, apologizing profusely for being so "needy" and this was literally right before we were to go on an international vacation together. I need help. I know I need to walk away, I guess the first step is moving one foot in front of the other.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 8:17:27 GMT
joan that is heartbreaking. He might be DA, but this is an abusive dynamic. If you can't trust yourself to be alone, have you considered starting therapy to build up some resources that will help you have the confidence to leave and stay gone?
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 6, 2018 12:12:49 GMT
I've read a ton of books, articles, these types of forums, been in therapy weekly, went to a Co-Dependents meeting, talked my family and friend's ear off, and yet I feel like I've gotten no closer to loving myself enough to walk away from this DA. He's exactly how my mom was, and he's made me feel exactly as she did. I get the whole psychology of it, but what does it take to walk away? I've had kids, been through heartbreak, divorce, and I know I could get over this although with much heartbreak, but what is it that I need to learn, or see or go through to let this go? He's been the most distant, rejecting, hurtful, and neglectful man I've ever been with, yet he's the hardest one to let go of. He could be the most warm, attentive, caring, giving, emotionally intuitive and perceptive person I've ever known, but at the drop of a hat he can be the most cruel, spiteful, hateful, rejecting and coldest person I've ever known, besides my mom of course. Something as small as me getting bummed out because he said he couldn't come over on the weekend because that's the only time I really get to spend time with him. He went off on me, told me hated my guts, I was the biggest loser he ever knew and on and on he went. I sat there like a fool begging for his forgiveness, apologizing profusely for being so "needy" and this was literally right before we were to go on an international vacation together. I need help. I know I need to walk away, I guess the first step is moving one foot in front of the other. Hey Joan...my first thought looking over your post is.....I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. I went through the exact situation with a Narcissist. 3 years of being at his beck and call while also being in therapy and having my therapist ask...Do you want to be in this for the next 20 years? And I said "No" but still could not walk away. I say that because I want you to know you are NOT ALONE. It can feel crazy making and isolating to want to leave but still finding yourself in it. First thing that I want to recommend...change your words about/to yourself...because you may not realize it...but you are also treating yourself poorly when you speak words of frustration about yourself. There is a reason this pattern is attractive to you...be curious about what that is...what is it that keeps you "hopeful". For me...it was the fact that "sometimes" he would treat me well...love bomb me in such a way that I justified to myself the rejection by hoping for the next cycle of love bombing. Another thing....accept yourself for who you are right now....it is ok to say, today I am still with this man and I accept that today I have chosen to be with him. Remove the word need and should from your vocabulary...those are obligatory words and we tend to do the opposite. Use chose and can instead because those words open up options and don't lock you into a pattern where if you don't do it you feel wrong or a failure. Finally, you are more than your attachment pain.....know that....honor the fact that you experienced great pain at a very young age that set all of this in motion...but that pain does not define you or your worth. I am sending you a big cyber hug.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 13:00:58 GMT
I concur with tnr's opinion that he is a narcissist.
I went through that particular hell myself, and unfortunately, neither I nor anyone around me knew about personality disorders and I received some really really bad advice from my circle of friends who are mostly themselves empathetic persons.
My ex was so handsome, so charming, seemingly so sympathetic, so accomplished in public, that everyone thought he was the perfect partner for me.
In private, he was the monster you described.
My friends' bad advice was to stay and try to make it work.
It not only wasted years of my life it took a terrible toll on me psychologically. It is only when I read up on Cluster B disorders and Narcissistic Personality Disorder that I finally realized what I was up against.
It is like a primitive tribe fighting an enemy who uses nuclear, chemical or biological warfare - you don't even have the slightest concept of what you are meeting head on, gaslighting, projection, lovebombing, entitlement to everything and everyone around, zero empathy, devaluation, inability to comprehend "love", etc. none of which makes any sense to a normal person who wants to lead a normal life.
I struggled to understand why the man who is supposed to love you would want to destroy you or take you down, and you are both in the same boat - you sink, he sinks, but he tries to sink you anyway.
The question you need to ask yourself is why would you stay to keep getting yourself hurt?
My "disorder" was the naive faith that people are basically good, and that all of us have issues, we are all works in progress, he will "wake up" and realize that abuse of a giving partner trying to do her best by him is wrong, etc.
He never apologized for every instance of emotional abuse but he would return to lovebomb, before it all started over again. So I kept thinking that he would "wake up".
That was a deluded attitude and I had to learn a hard lesson. I really hope that you don't have to go through what we went through.
He needs help, but he has to find it himself, and he won't if he can keep doing what he does to others to exact Supply, admiration, love, generosity and letting the vicious rage out on innocents who do not fight back, to feed the dark void within, that primordial void that was formed long before you met.
To answer your question, it doesn't, until he ends it himself by seeking the professional help he needs. Even then, you might not have a different person, as certain traits (eg. lack of ability to empathize) can't be willed into existence, but at least he might turn into someone who is more mindful of his behavior towards others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 13:49:03 GMT
joan, i know how mind boggling and hopeless being involved with a pathological narcissist can be, and i agree that this is what this dynamic sounds like. So you know, it can happen to us DA women also, just some differences in the internal dialogue. For instance, i wasn't emotionally bound to the narc, i was financially and logistically bound. So i couldn't see a way out. But even though the shackles were made of a different material so to speak, the abuse was very confusing and destructive. EXTREMELY PAINFUL AND DEBILITATING! I wonder, if you minimize the abuse or even deny that it is abuse? I am wondering this because you might be making Dismissive Attachment. and Anxious Preoccupied Attachment the primary dynamic in your mind, instead of a dynamic of Narcissistic Abuser and Narcissist Target. From what you describe, i see attachment style as secondary and Not The Real Issue. Have you sought support from Domestic Violence resources? It's well established that emotional and verbal abuse can escalate to violence, and once that happens there is a whole new set of obstacles to leaving, because of PTSD , law enforcement involvement (they took the side of the violent abuser who left no marks, and showed no distress, in my case) , and further threats of violence if you try to leave. It might sound extreme, but unfortunately situations like this tend to increase in severity one way or another, and it only ends by escape, if he is a malignant narcissist. And, no one can say where it ends, but you. I'm sorry to put that on you, but it's true. We are the only ones that can commit to our own well being and follow through, no one can do it for us. But there is lots of help out there. I urge you to seek the appropriate help if you haven't already.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 6, 2018 15:17:46 GMT
My situation got so bad that I knew I had to leave...but I knew I could not leave unless I found someone else and I could not even think about finding someone else while I was with him. So I prayed that he would find someone else and finally let me go.....I got back from an international trip to a message that he loved our time together but he found someone else and he was in love and he asked me to not contact him again. I keep that text message as an answered prayer...I don't know where I would be if he had not ended things.....These relationships are extremely painful and the dynamic is hard for someone to understand that has not personally experienced it. We are here for you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 16:16:47 GMT
We are here for you. I think there are many among us, of all attachment types, who have endured and been devastated by narcissistic abuse, but have eventually emerged stronger and wiser. Some of us have been through the cycle more than once in different relationships before we were able to deliver ourselves. The vulnerability to this type of dynamic is created by wounds to our psyche when we were small. Any of us is vulnerable, so it's not something uniquely deficient about you. You aren't alone by any means. Here's an idea, those of us who have come through this might be able to create a vision for you, of your untangling. If i imagine you to be tied down with heavy ropes, and unable to free yourself, I, Juniper, would grab the thickest and heaviest i could find, the one called Shame, and cut it with a big fat knife. Shame might tell you that you are fundamentally flawed, and that the cause of this predicament is something inherently faulty in YOU, and if you were only to find and rectify this flaw, things would be better. Or it might tell you that you aren't good enough to do differently, so why even try. It might confuse you and tell you you're stupid and weak. I don't know what Shame tells you, privately, but I see it well enough to identify it and hack it off of you 😡 The elixir that i would offer you in a little cup to help sustain you, and counter the Shame that bound you, is the understanding that Shame ITSELF is the wound, it's what's "wrong" . it's not your fault, it's the result of what has happened to you. It was inflicted on you, in you, by people who were suffering probably in much the same way on some level, maybe your parents. Maybe they never figured it out and perpetuated their pain in you. Shame can't tell you the truth because it IS THE WOUND, it is not who you are. But it keeps you tied to what hurts you. Each of us who had endured this might see a particular rope we'd like to cut off of you and have a little elixir to soothe the rope burns. I can also see loneliness, sadness, despair, isolation, frustration, a whole lot of ropes. @curious, tnr9 do you see particular ropes you can help joan identify and cut off? Just to help her visualize what healing might look like?
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 6, 2018 16:24:52 GMT
I think one of mine I would call...ALWYS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for everything that went wrong in the relationship. It left me so much more vunerable to his negative words and actions because everything became so PERSONAL. It also eroded my ability to take care of myself by establishing healthy boundaries....I had no boundaries with that man. Zero.
But here is the thing.....you actually need scissors in your toolbox to cut a rope. If you find that you don't have scissors...that is ok too....just realize that it does not all fall to you....you are not the problem!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 16:34:45 GMT
I think one of mine I would call...ALWYS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for everything that went wrong in the relationship. It left me so much more vunerable to his negative words and actions because everything became so PERSONAL. It also eroded my ability to take care of myself by establishing healthy boundaries....I had no boundaries with that man. Zero. But here is the thing.....you actually need scissors in your toolbox to cut a rope. If you find that you don't have scissors...that is ok too....just realize that it does not all fall to you....you are not the problem!!! yep, if you don't have the tools then people around you can help you find out what you need, and also help you with their own. just know that it's possible to free yourself with some good help.
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Post by annieb on Apr 6, 2018 19:12:02 GMT
I can empathise with your situation also. You are addicted to the dynamic of the intermittent reward and abuse. Only you can end this cycle, but the thing is there is no grand reward coming. There is numbness and loneliness three, when you leave him. And that's what we are all up against. However, once you enter this phase after leaving him, if you take one day at a time, things will start to change for the better. I am myself embarrassed to recount how many relationships I've had with extreme DAs and narcissists. One too many. I know I need to leave this behind me because it will kill me one of these times. So whatever you are afraid of, mainly the silence and loneliness, rest assured it is only temporary and a few days in you will start to enjoy it. Good luck to you, you can do this. I hear you on the self love thing. I've done the same also, therapy, self help books, forums, I would say solid 15 years of different healing strategies and I am no closer to my goal, but at the same time, I have to say, I have survived and I am in a decent shape insofar as my body and mind, so there is that. Even though we may not see the progress and it is not as fast, trust me, the progress is there.
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nic
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Post by nic on Apr 6, 2018 22:44:26 GMT
I've read a ton of books, articles, these types of forums, been in therapy weekly, went to a Co-Dependents meeting, talked my family and friend's ear off, and yet I feel like I've gotten no closer to loving myself enough to walk away from this DA. He's exactly how my mom was, and he's made me feel exactly as she did. I get the whole psychology of it, but what does it take to walk away? I've had kids, been through heartbreak, divorce, and I know I could get over this although with much heartbreak, but what is it that I need to learn, or see or go through to let this go? He's been the most distant, rejecting, hurtful, and neglectful man I've ever been with, yet he's the hardest one to let go of. He could be the most warm, attentive, caring, giving, emotionally intuitive and perceptive person I've ever known, but at the drop of a hat he can be the most cruel, spiteful, hateful, rejecting and coldest person I've ever known, besides my mom of course. Something as small as me getting bummed out because he said he couldn't come over on the weekend because that's the only time I really get to spend time with him. He went off on me, told me hated my guts, I was the biggest loser he ever knew and on and on he went. I sat there like a fool begging for his forgiveness, apologizing profusely for being so "needy" and this was literally right before we were to go on an international vacation together. I need help. I know I need to walk away, I guess the first step is moving one foot in front of the other. I feel your pain! We know it's wrong and still stay. I wish I knew the answer. I know for me a DA is unfortunately what I'm comfortable with, because they are not too much (they are also not enough). For you, it might be comfortable (even though its very uncomfortable) because its what you know. It's a painful place to be. I don't know how to love yourself enough either.. I always thought I did love myself but it's impossible to love ourselves and not be our own protectors and best advocates. If you do decide to leave (as I did) you will feel so much loss & pain that its hard to rationalize that it will get better and subside. You have to be prepared for that. I have left a few times and reached the point of feeling peace again. So it does get better. And then I let him reel me back in each time. Don't do that. It gets harder every time. I never feel like its over because I'm strong on my own but NOT when he comes back to sell me the dream. I fall every time. I'm currently full of anxiety every time my phone buzzes. I know he's going to come back and will I be strong enough or will I be sold snake oil? I know that doesn't answer your question but I hope it shows you that you are going through what many of us do. The struggle of love vs. pain. Love is not supposed to hurt. Sometimes maybe but not the majority of it. I do think you are on the right track with self love. I wish there was a manual for that ♡
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Post by leavethelighton on Apr 6, 2018 23:21:10 GMT
Have you tried writing out all the steps it would take to leave, so you can then take the first step? That might make something that seems overwhelming seem more doable-- one step at a time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 16:16:50 GMT
The Rope cutting...let me see..I'm not great at metaphor but will try.
How about imagining he is sinking on the Titanic, you are in the Lifeboat that is completely full and cannot take another, but he is tugging at the rope of your Lifeboat. Although he is sinking and he will sink you if he pulls on your Lifeboat, he still NEEDS to pull it to sink you with him. It's his nature, he can't help being this way. There are sinking people who help the living get away, finding solace in them going on, but there are those who hate their sinking but will feel better if someone else sinks faster, so they hold on to your Life Rope to pull you down even as they sink.
You need to cut the rope to such people, as they haven't learned to swim, and you can't do anything to rescue them, but they want you to sink with them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 15:02:46 GMT
I've read a ton of books, articles, these types of forums, been in therapy weekly, went to a Co-Dependents meeting, talked my family and friend's ear off, and yet I feel like I've gotten no closer to loving myself enough to walk away from this DA. He's exactly how my mom was, and he's made me feel exactly as she did. I get the whole psychology of it, but what does it take to walk away? I've had kids, been through heartbreak, divorce, and I know I could get over this although with much heartbreak, but what is it that I need to learn, or see or go through to let this go? He's been the most distant, rejecting, hurtful, and neglectful man I've ever been with, yet he's the hardest one to let go of. He could be the most warm, attentive, caring, giving, emotionally intuitive and perceptive person I've ever known, but at the drop of a hat he can be the most cruel, spiteful, hateful, rejecting and coldest person I've ever known, besides my mom of course. Something as small as me getting bummed out because he said he couldn't come over on the weekend because that's the only time I really get to spend time with him. He went off on me, told me hated my guts, I was the biggest loser he ever knew and on and on he went. I sat there like a fool begging for his forgiveness, apologizing profusely for being so "needy" and this was literally right before we were to go on an international vacation together. I need help. I know I need to walk away, I guess the first step is moving one foot in front of the other. Unfortunately, there is no "key". What takes to walk away is very individual. What I have seen is that most people have to hit rock bottom before they can walk away. It's the same with alcoholics and drug addicts. You are trying to resolve the relationships of your childhood and unfortunately, this won't resolve it, it only perpetuates the belief system (your internal belief system). This has been talked about in the DA support section. You have to change your internal beliefs to change the behavior. Much easier said than done.
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 24, 2018 5:28:23 GMT
Have you tried writing out all the steps it would take to leave, so you can then take the first step? That might make something that seems overwhelming seem more doable-- one step at a time. That does sound like a good idea. I've given myself goals like what I would do with my time if I were no longer with him. I think I've been preparing to leave this relationship from the beginning which is kind of odd. But I do like your suggestion, so thank you compassionateavoid
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