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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2018 20:29:36 GMT
I've started reading this story, and I came across this. I love this quote. I'm an FA (with a strong AP side). It really encapsulates for me the way I've always lived my life: chasing my own projected fantasy. Building new fantasies atop the ashes of old ones - again, and again, and again, until I finally realised how tired I felt of repeating the same pattern. Chasing the next pow thing, then the next, and the next - and realised that every time, I happened to lose a bit more of myself to the fire in the process. I've gotten so tired of this process; my soul feels so tired.
This describes the way I see love so well - there is so much passion in the loves I've chosen, but to that same degree, so much self-deception. I finally woke up a couple of months ago to the fact that my entire concept of love was actually a fabrication, and I was totally unaware of how irrational and fantastic in the pure sense of the word. Not reflective of reality at all. The sad thing is - this is the only kind of romantic love I can recognise, and feel lit from within with.
Does anyone else relate to this?
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Post by leavethelighton on Apr 26, 2018 1:45:02 GMT
I can relate, though I've never actually had the passionate relationship outside of relatively brief friendship or fantasy-- not in an actual romantic or sexual relationship unfortunately.... But I did chase the soulmate idea for a few decades before realizing it didn't do me much good and actually did me a lot of harm (they're always dating someone else, and they don't stick around).
But yes, the intensity, the hope, the projected fantasy, and the loss. I think of it as a slightly different metaphor like one was once in a world of grey and then the world seemed like autumn when the trees are aflame in red and orange and yellow, and then the long grey, and then the long flaming autumn, and now it's gray again, and without the fantasy or hope it has its subtle pleasures but still just seems like by giving up the fantasy it won't have all that color again.
I know my life has a lot of good things in it, but in giving up the fantasy/hope I have had to grapple with feeling like I was giving up a core element of my identity. It's hard to give that up even if it is a fantasy idea. It's hard to want to fully admit it's just fantasy. Everything seems lesser when you give it up.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 26, 2018 10:48:16 GMT
I definately do Tigrio.....it is part of what drives my "all in"ness towards the beginning of a relationship. I tend to fall hard for the fantasy that I create and then get disappointed when the guy doesn't behave like the fantasy version. I was much better with B...I actually used to write in my journal about "fantasy B" just so I could make a distinction between the guy I was still getting to know and the one I made up in my head. But my heart was always getting the two confused and I think it caused me to "rush" things because I wanted to get to the same level with real B that I achieved in just days with fantasy B. That reality makes me sad, because had I just been a whole lot slower and intentional, I think B and I would have established a much more solid friendship.
It is very interesting because had you spoken to me when B and I first started dating, I would have told you that I loved him and it would have been true....but it was a very desperate love, with a whole lot of fears that he would get bored or find someone else more appealing. Looking back, it was definately more infatuation and desire....but now that he and I are not dating....I do still love him...but it is morphing into something really beautiful, caring and kind. It is not perfect and I still have a lot of AP reactions and fears...but underneath of that..it is solid (and it isn't based on whether he loves me back, which again is so odd).
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joan
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Post by joan on Apr 27, 2018 8:01:40 GMT
I've started reading this story, and I came across this. I love this quote. I'm an FA (with a strong AP side). It really encapsulates for me the way I've always lived my life: chasing my own projected fantasy. Building new fantasies atop the ashes of old ones - again, and again, and again, until I finally realised how tired I felt of repeating the same pattern. Chasing the next pow thing, then the next, and the next - and realised that every time, I happened to lose a bit more of myself to the fire in the process. I've gotten so tired of this process; my soul feels so tired. This describes the way I see love so well - there is so much passion in the loves I've chosen, but to that same degree, so much self-deception. I finally woke up a couple of months ago to the fact that my entire concept of love was actually a fabrication, and I was totally unaware of how irrational and fantastic in the pure sense of the word. Not reflective of reality at all. The sad thing is - this is the only kind of romantic love I can recognise, and feel lit from within with. Does anyone else relate to this? |
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joan
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Post by joan on Apr 27, 2018 8:18:22 GMT
I can relate to what you're saying tigrio. I too have had this fantasy of what love was supposed to look and feel like. I carried that fantasy with me into every new relationship, ever so hopeful, and optimistic. The shiny hope I carried has slowly been replaced with this cynical, and hardened attitude that's left me so very tired too. I saw the pattern, got into therapy and realized this ideal I carried of love and relationships was what was not only crushing me but leaving me stuck. Seeing the fantasy of a partner rather then the reality. Seeing and actually feeling the fantasy in the beginning, as all beginnings are and holding onto it despite how unhappy the relationship has become and remains. It's running from something, the fantasy, the toxic relationships...it's a way to self-medicate and distract from the deeper pain we've always felt. I just wish I knew what comes next...
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Post by leavethelighton on Apr 28, 2018 23:54:15 GMT
. . . It's running from something, the fantasy, the toxic relationships...it's a way to self-medicate and distract from the deeper pain we've always felt. I just wish I knew what comes next... I think you're right that a big part of it is distraction. It's like there's real life, and a sort of imagined real-feeling/fantasy life running parallel to it. Sometimes I think I should just accept that is how my brain is wired and stop feeling at conflict with it-- just be at peace and okay with it. After 40 years of life it doesn't seem like I can change the entire way my brain works. But then other times I think there must be something to the idea of being able to commit to a real relationship with a real person, in spirit and not just in name....what if I somehow stopped all the attention on the distractions and worked on building a more positive actual relationship. I am married to a worthy partner in a relationship that has its ups and downs, but I've never been able to stop distracting (or as you put it, medicating) myself with various forms of ongoing fantasy. I was thinking today that unless I change that, I'll never really have the relationship I want to have, I'll always feel like it's inherently flawed or like there is something available to the human experience that I haven't and don't get to experience. How does one embrace reality and not fantasy when sometimes the fantasy seems more real and certainly more worthy than reality? I don't know either, but I guess naming the problem/challenge is a step. |
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 24, 2018 5:19:21 GMT
Sorry for the very late response. I didn't see your response compassionateavoid until now. I agree with you about making peace and being okay with how we are. If we can catch ourselves when we see our insecure attachment style at work and make the effort to think and react differently, that can be helpful. It's a day by day thing. In those little efforts, it might become more habitual after awhile. I suppose that's how reconditioning works, and that's what we're all trying to do here. Recondition ourselves to think and feel more securely. It's not automatic for us so it can feel pretty uncomfortable to do but we can only keep trying.
So much of what you think and feel as an avoidant is similar to what I think and feel as an anxious preoccupied. It's just inside out. However, we're both using distraction and fantasy to escape our deep rooted feelings of loneliness, and being flawed. When I committed to a real relationship and got all of the things I thought I so desperately wanted, love, support, stability and commitment I became an avoidant. I distracted, escaped, and felt like I was getting the life sucked out of me. Committing to a real relationship is a great idea, but it's working on ourselves first before trying to work on building something with someone else that I think needs to happen. I'm still trying to figure it out. I had the "ideal" relationship that I put a lot of work into, but the loneliness, and sense of being unfulfilled was still there.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 24, 2018 8:48:56 GMT
Sorry for the very late response. I didn't see your response compassionateavoid until now. I agree with you about making peace and being okay with how we are. If we can catch ourselves when we see our insecure attachment style at work and make the effort to think and react differently, that can be helpful. It's a day by day thing. In those little efforts, it might become more habitual after awhile. I suppose that's how reconditioning works, and that's what we're all trying to do here. Recondition ourselves to think and feel more securely. It's not automatic for us so it can feel pretty uncomfortable to do but we can only keep trying. So much of what you think and feel as an avoidant is similar to what I think and feel as an anxious preoccupied. It's just inside out. However, we're both using distraction and fantasy to escape our deep rooted feelings of loneliness, and being flawed. When I committed to a real relationship and got all of the things I thought I so desperately wanted, love, support, stability and commitment I became an avoidant. I distracted, escaped, and felt like I was getting the life sucked out of me. Committing to a real relationship is a great idea, but it's working on ourselves first before trying to work on building something with someone else that I think needs to happen. I'm still trying to figure it out. I had the "ideal" relationship that I put a lot of work into, but the loneliness, and sense of being unfulfilled was still there. I was watching a YouTube video and the speaking said...marriage doesn't improve your singleness, it exposes it. So his perspective was to work during your singleness to love who you are and be good with you before even considering someone else. |
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Post by notalone on Jul 24, 2018 23:49:15 GMT
I've started reading this story, and I came across this. I love this quote. I'm an FA (with a strong AP side). It really encapsulates for me the way I've always lived my life: chasing my own projected fantasy. Building new fantasies atop the ashes of old ones - again, and again, and again, until I finally realised how tired I felt of repeating the same pattern. Chasing the next pow thing, then the next, and the next - and realised that every time, I happened to lose a bit more of myself to the fire in the process. I've gotten so tired of this process; my soul feels so tired. This describes the way I see love so well - there is so much passion in the loves I've chosen, but to that same degree, so much self-deception. I finally woke up a couple of months ago to the fact that my entire concept of love was actually a fabrication, and I was totally unaware of how irrational and fantastic in the pure sense of the word. Not reflective of reality at all. The sad thing is - this is the only kind of romantic love I can recognise, and feel lit from within with. Does anyone else relate to this? I relate, and it makes me very sad. I feel like I've been chasing a unicorn my whole life; that what I thought was love was really just my projections and anxiety, and that I have no idea what real love looks or feels like. I feel so lost. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Jul 24, 2018 23:55:25 GMT
I was watching a YouTube video and the speaking said...marriage doesn't improve your singleness, it exposes it. So his perspective was to work during your singleness to love who you are and be good with you before even considering someone else.
Interesting. I've been married for 15 years but in some ways I've never stopped feeling single-- not for any lack in my partner or a major flaw in the relationship-- just that I seem wired to feel and think of myself as defined by a certain sense of unfulfilled desire and longing. It's been a bit less true the past year or two since I've come to a deeper understanding of myself...now I want to watch this video you refer to!
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Post by leavethelighton on Jul 24, 2018 23:59:49 GMT
I relate, and it makes me very sad. I feel like I've been chasing a unicorn my whole life; that what I thought was love was really just my projections and anxiety, and that I have no idea what real love looks or feels like. I feel so lost.
Notalone, hang in there. I know what you mean totally about having spent a lifetime chasing a unicorn-- the older I get, the less I think I know what love is. I think all this attachment styles stuff can be very disillusioning.
These days I think of love as a mix of caring and compassion and commitment and effort. As I get older, actions (by myself and others) matter more than feelings, though I suppose we can't help but wish that feeling would drive action.
I also think that sometimes we expect love to be the beginning of a relationship when it may actually be the longterm result.
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Post by notalone on Jul 25, 2018 16:39:22 GMT
Sorry for the lengthy post...I'm working this out...this is my opinion...
ILLUSION: Romantic love is often idealized as a magical state of bliss. This feeds quite nicely into the anxious attachment style since it can feel so intense. It also feeds nicely into the avoidant attachment style because it’s not realistic and it’s unattainable.
REALITY: In reality, love is not that complicated or elusive. Love is deeply caring for someone, period, not because of what they do for us (ie. sooth anxiety, feed the ego, fill a need for connection, etc.).
CONFUSION: Attachment anxiety has produced an intensity of emotions that I've often confused with idealized, romantic love. As a baby I was nurtured inconsistently by a parent who was mentally unhealthy. This intermittent affection created an addiction in me, an unconscious feeling that I need someone to make me feel safe and ok, and that real love is not dependable or consistent. Today, with consistent, stable affection, I simply feel nothing. For me, feeling loved by a partner who is mentally unhealthy, and who provides the kind of inconsistent affection I received as a baby, is familiar, comforting, feeds my ‘addiction’, and results in a feeling of bliss. It’s quite honestly the most intense high I’ve ever felt, but as with all highs, it never lasts.
ABANDONMENT: A partner leaving triggers ‘primal panic’ in my nervous system, which is the fear I experienced as a baby that I might die, because a baby that isn’t nurtured can die. The intensity of that anxiety produces the paradoxical feeling that I want to die in order to stop the feelings. It’s quite honestly the most intense pain I ever felt.
COMING DOWN: When a partner sticks around long enough that the intensity of my feelings lessens, I question if I’m still in love, if I ever really loved my partner, and if my partner really loved or loves me. Now, I wonder if what was really happening was that as relationships became consistent, the high went away, giving way to an underlying anxiety and belief that consistent love isn’t real love, receiving consistent love isn’t possible for me, that I’m not worthy of consistent love, or that I’m too needy and broken for someone to really love me. Whatever the reason, when the intense emotions fade, in time, I usually leave the relationship.
WHAT NOW? Now I’m telling myself that when I experience those kind of intense emotions early on, before I really know someone well, it's probably attachment anxiety rather than love. What I'm finding really hard is that I feel so flat, so unexcited, about dating unless I feel that intensity, and at the same time I no longer trust those intense feelings. I tell myself the healthy approach is to take my time, get to know someone, decide if there is potential for a healthy relationship (ie. they're someone I like and they don't have insecure attachment), and if feelings develop in time THAT'S the way to a functional, sustainable relationship, and rationally that seems correct. The problem is when there is no intensity I just lose interest. That scares me and makes me feel like I'll always be alone or in an unhealthy relationship. The idea that real love comes with this high, and with the right person it'll last, is the unicorn I've been chasing, and it's so hard to let go of.
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Post by notalone on Jul 25, 2018 16:48:03 GMT
I can relate, though I've never actually had the passionate relationship outside of relatively brief friendship or fantasy-- not in an actual romantic or sexual relationship unfortunately.... But I did chase the soulmate idea for a few decades before realizing it didn't do me much good and actually did me a lot of harm (they're always dating someone else, and they don't stick around). But yes, the intensity, the hope, the projected fantasy, and the loss. I think of it as a slightly different metaphor like one was once in a world of grey and then the world seemed like autumn when the trees are aflame in red and orange and yellow, and then the long grey, and then the long flaming autumn, and now it's gray again, and without the fantasy or hope it has its subtle pleasures but still just seems like by giving up the fantasy it won't have all that color again. I know my life has a lot of good things in it, but in giving up the fantasy/hope I have had to grapple with feeling like I was giving up a core element of my identity. It's hard to give that up even if it is a fantasy idea. It's hard to want to fully admit it's just fantasy. Everything seems lesser when you give it up. YES! |
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Jul 25, 2018 17:23:36 GMT
So am I right in thinking that a majority of the AP relationships can never be satisfied, no matter what? It seems a long term relationship is something you don't really want due to the lack of long term intensity high, and a secure relationship provides nothing but a flatline after time. The thing you want the most is unrealistic, a fantasy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2018 19:21:16 GMT
I've started reading this story, and I came across this. I love this quote. I'm an FA (with a strong AP side). It really encapsulates for me the way I've always lived my life: chasing my own projected fantasy. Building new fantasies atop the ashes of old ones - again, and again, and again, until I finally realised how tired I felt of repeating the same pattern. Chasing the next pow thing, then the next, and the next - and realised that every time, I happened to lose a bit more of myself to the fire in the process. I've gotten so tired of this process; my soul feels so tired. This describes the way I see love so well - there is so much passion in the loves I've chosen, but to that same degree, so much self-deception. I finally woke up a couple of months ago to the fact that my entire concept of love was actually a fabrication, and I was totally unaware of how irrational and fantastic in the pure sense of the word. Not reflective of reality at all. The sad thing is - this is the only kind of romantic love I can recognise, and feel lit from within with. Does anyone else relate to this? tigio - get this 100%. I am FA with AP, but more secure than I realised. My last 'relationship' was with an extreme FA - and when I look back, I was so much secure than I thought ... until I had to start some medication, which triggered my AP-side (and then created to the avoidance-reaction in the FA and then my shocked, but somewhat Secure reaction). I have chased fantasy all my life - but then I am an artist! - yet, I can also recognise unconditional love through the love of my animals. I've always had an unusual connection with animals, and I believe that you can't hide your feelings with them ... so I have learnt much about unconscious human communication from animals. So, maybe I am grounded through that. I do know that I can understand all sides - except where feelings are shut down...to me that is extreme fear. And because my only survival was by pushing through extreme fear, it is the only way I know. Therefore - sorry for the convoluted post - but I have sought that fantasy love. But I am also closer to being more grounded about the truth. I do believe - and the Attached book seems to confirm this - that I was AP but overcame this very early in life and was somewhat Secure, despite a horrific upbringing - but that upbringing left me vulnerable to the effects of Avoidants and Narcissists - which re-triggered and exacerbated AP tendencies (although I don't really protest / do the reactive behaviour, I tend to bottle that all up, because that's how I survived growing up) and FA tendencies. Anyway, apologies for the ramble - but I totally get your post. It is also about perfection - trying to be perfect and therefore chasing perfection. But I do believe that you can find someone 'good enough' (probably Secure) who is willing to go with the fantasy, i.e., if someone is open, willing and secure enough to go with you, that you can dream up / live out solutions to work with / overcome the fantasy element. So long as you can let go (dissociate ?!) from the push / pull anxiety dynamic of perceived 'love'. |
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