Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 17:52:48 GMT
great post boomerang. i think it's critical to acknowledge that in these relationships, BOTH partners have attachment WOUNDS. There is insecure attachment dysfunction that causes detriment to the SELF and also DETRIMENT TO THE PARTNER. What i frequently see is some kind of expectation that an avoidant partner should be able to ease the pain or discomfort of their partner by behaving in a way that the partner would find helpful. So sure, we can say that a partner or ex partner should behave in this way or that way in order to be kind and respectful and ease our pain. That is not a realistic expectation between two insecurely attached partners. Believe me, pain was being delivered on both sides, the entire time, in an insecurely attached couple. That is not going to stop with a breakup. An avoidant partner is going to break up how they do. An AP partner is going to react how they do. In some cases an AP will cut off an avoidant and go no contact and feel that is the best way for them to heal and stop engaging and move forward. How anyone deals with a breakup is down to them. Truly it is. There may be preferences, but rest assured there are preferences on the other side as well. An avoidant may truly feel disrespected and exhausted and repelled by the insistence that they meet unrealistic needs of their partner. The literature supports that idea. Their need to stop is as strong as an AP need to continue. Who is wrong? Maybe they are both in need of a healthier dynamic with a healthier partner. To expect a partner who was unable to meet your needs during a relationship to meet your needs during a breakup isn't realistic. Not saying anyone has that expectation, but if that expectation does exist, it is unrealistic. There is no reason to expect a wounded person who has insecure attachment to be able to behave in ways that feel like what you need to solve your pain. If that were realistic this attachment theory business wouldn't exist- we would all just have and be great partners. we would all be secure. it's important to remember that if you are insecurely attached, any style- you were causing pain during the relationship also. You were not able to meet needs either. And you don't have to try to meet needs post breakup that you couldn't meet during the relationship. I can give a quick example from the other side. I have experienced circular conversations with AP partners in which what i said was routinely dismissed. My needs were invalidated. My truth was criticized. My intentions were maligned. My clear statements about things were ignored. I have been emotionally abused by AP partners whose jealousy caused them to make horrible accusations about my character. Having continuous conversations where we could not see eye to eye was futile, exhausting, and toxic. I had a right to have my positions, they have a right to have theirs, and those two positions but us in opposite trajectories. So letting go was the way to proceed with my life without further entanglement in an unworkable dynamic. I got tired of asking for change just like they dd. they would have kept it going ad infinitum because that's what AP tend to do- cling to a relationship unable to let go. Try to get love from an unavailable source. Try to get validation and change from a partner who in many cases says "I am unable or unwilling to do that, and it doesn't work for me or feel like what i need to be happy with my self and my life. it doesn't feel any better to be an avoidant with an AP partner than it does to be an AP with an avoidant partner. The discomfort doesn't go just one way. So, in a breakup, each will behave and take care of themselves however their attachment style leads them to. That's the nature of this. The unresolved pain of an AP partner cannot be soothed by the avoidant. This is where each person is left to proceed in the best way they can assessing the things in themselves that contribute to their pain. It's individual work and there won't be cooperation between two insecurely attached people to accomplish this. If an AP continues to ruminate that is a symptom of AP attachment wounding, and painful as it is, it is only the AP that can address it and hopefully move past it. The avoidant cannot help them with this at all. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 22:18:54 GMT
I always take away things from all these posts, even when there is disagreement/differing points of view. Often, as in this thread, different part of each POV resonate with me. It is all very helpful as I put together my self knowledge and an ever-deeper understanding of what is likely a part of his reality. It helps me balance and move away from the good guy/bad guy train of thought (where sometimes I am the bad guy--crazy activated AP who messes things up--and sometimes he is).
So for me, the older post from the dismissive partner and the delete button and how that person processed a breakup was really enlightening. I read it and thought, "ah--got it." Which was helpful to me at this moment in time, as my DA/FA (whatever he is, I'm not fully sure), who I do care about a lot, has walked away from me and gone into N/C without ending things with me.
I read that post, and I had a revelation about why, as I had been puzzled by that why, as we had no fight or big heavy conversation immediately preceding this. So that was helpful.
And the delete button explanation was helpful, too. I have been wondering what he is thinking/how he is processing the sudden cold freeze we are BOTH in because I am not reaching out at all as I just cannot right now--I cannot trust myself at the moment to manage my emotions. Same as him, I imagine. But my cold freeze is very different behavior from me than what he is used to as usually, I will try to talk about it. This time, I am not. This is very different than our last breakup, when he told me he decided to end it for reasons he explained and I understood, and I told him I would not be in contact as that is how I would handle my side, and it worked for both of us. We parted well and we agreed that we did. He has never experienced me just walking away, too, without a word. It's not my pattern with him. So, part of me has felt guilty that I may be hurting him, even though that is not my intention or desire. But that post and this thread helps me to understand that maybe he's just going "delete" and feeling relief because we are not in our dysfunctional relationship anymore. So, my silence maybe is relieving as I am letting him be.
Mind you, as helpful as this is to see intellectually and to use to frame my understanding, step back from my POV and consider his, I have to confess that I am having a hard time with this sudden N/C with no explanation. Even though I know he is not intentionally trying to hurt me, either--he is not that kind of person--the fact is that he does know very well that this is the one thing that upsets me as we have talked about it in the past. So it is hard, emotionally, to understand why his is taking this path, especially when we have a model of how to end things this that did work so that we both felt OK with each other. The bottom line is, it feels like he doesn't care if I am OK or not. I don't know that this is true, but that is how it feels. And me being hurt and angry, logically, is not productive as our paths cross all the time. So this is where other comments resonate with me: I don't understand why he doesn't just talk to me, clear the air, end things on a positive and agreed note. THEN delete. Both kind and practical.
Well said, boomerang NC without explanation is bad - APs do NC when they are pushed to it, not just as a matter of fact / habit / principle ... because we understand the impact it has / how it feels. Learning to find / use this button is a great way of overcoming being AP! - because an evolving AP will not use the button in a harmful way (they know the real pain) - but rather a more Secure way. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 23:47:14 GMT
sometimes the partner of an AP feels bullied , guilted, and blamed and shamed into being forced to take care of the AP's child-like dependence on others to soothe their anxiety, as explained in this article. In this case, i would suspect the partner might break up and choose a no-contact route. I don't think it's accurate to claim that an evolving AP would use this in a Secure way, but an avoidant would use it in a hurtful way. on both sides, the struggle is real. I haven't had to use no contact with a partner except in cases of physical abuse, but i sure would without hesitation if i encountered a need to protect my emotional health and boundaries. AP protest behavior can be pretty vicious, i've read about that and experienced it myself. As said before, the entire dynamic is toxic and harmful to both parties even if the individuals involved fail to recognize their own negative contribution. www.google.com/amp/s/www.goodtherapy.org/blog/own-inner-child-breaking-free-of-anxious-attachment-0613164/amp/ neither the absence of rumination nor the absence of contact are indications that an ex partner has no feelings related to the breakup or that they are somehow negligent. Rumination is not synonymous with pain ,it is synonymous with obsession and that is an important distinction. No contact is not necessarily an indication of dysfunction when practiced by a DA and Healthy Function when practiced by an AP. The individual persons and behaviors involved determine the relative health of the decisions made by each party. To generalize , favoring and vindicating one's own attachment style while invalidating the same behavior in another person because of their attachment style may be an indication of self righteousness or an insecure bias. in the end, whether there is contact or no contact breakups are painful and there are two sides to the story for sure. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Aug 3, 2018 3:25:28 GMT
I have a lot of the good therapy articles saved and I do recognize a lot of what is referred to in the one referred above. Part of what I have found challenging in my own experience of relationships is to be able to de personalize things. It is part of my emeshment/boundary issues....if you need space...what does that mean in relationship to me? It is an ever exhausting inquiry into another person's motives with a very paranoid and distrusting slant to it. I was looking back on my journal entries and the amount of time I worried about the relationship or why he did something or did not do something or said something or did nor say something far exceeded the amount of time I spent enjoying our time together or being grateful for each day we had together. Truly, I wish I could go back in time and just have been present to what unfolded and less worried about perceived moments of abandonment and rejection. Still, I know that I did not solely own the downfall of things...I was simply amplifying what I was already experiencing..which was a myriad of doubts and uncertainty from him that was not expressed but was there...so we both fell into roles and both hurt each other...but not intentionally. We simply triggered the wounding in each other and reacted out of our long standing patterns.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 3:39:57 GMT
I have a lot of the good therapy articles saved and I do recognize a lot of what is referred to in the one referred above. Part of what I have found challenging in my own experience of relationships is to be able to de personalize things. It is part of my emeshment/boundary issues....if you need space...what does that mean in relationship to me? It is an ever exhausting inquiry into another person's motives with a very paranoid and distrusting slant to it. I was looking back on my journal entries and the amount of time I worried about the relationship or why he did something or did not do something or said something or did nor say something far exceeded the amount of time I spent enjoying our time together or being grateful for each day we had together. Truly, I wish I could go back in time and just have been present to what unfolded and less worried about perceived moments of abandonment and rejection. Still, I know that I did not solely own the downfall of things...I was simply amplifying what I was already experiencing..which was a myriad of doubts and uncertainty from him that was not expressed but was there...so we both fell into roles and both hurt each other...but not intentionally. We simply triggered the wounding in each other and reacted out of our long standing patterns. i really think that with two insecurely attached people, unless there is a great deal of awareness on both sides. the dynamic is mainly a fight for survival and neither party can thrive and meet their healthiest , happiest potential. again, it's not about blame, it's about mutual contribution to dysfunctional dynamic where essentially, opposites attract and bring out the worst in each other. Growth toward secure attachment is definitely the way to go. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 8:01:01 GMT
www.google.com/amp/s/www.goodtherapy.org/blog/own-inner-child-breaking-free-of-anxious-attachment-0613164/amp/That is an interesting article, helping me to understand my attachment style further : I was / am partly AP but with a very big self-sufficient and non-expressing part, due to my upbringing and experiences, which make up the FA part. So I feel much of the AP stuff but act in some FA ways and more and more Secure ways. The Hoffman course is very good (did it years ago), in retrospect, for helping you through the unconsciousness of your attachment and becoming more self aware - it's not at all easy but, as I was told beforehand, it's like doing years of therapy in one week.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 12:10:23 GMT
www.google.com/amp/s/www.goodtherapy.org/blog/own-inner-child-breaking-free-of-anxious-attachment-0613164/amp/That is an interesting article, helping me to understand my attachment style further : I was / am partly AP but with a very big self-sufficient and non-expressing part, due to my upbringing and experiences, which make up the FA part. So I feel much of the AP stuff but act in some FA ways and more and more Secure ways. The Hoffman course is very good (did it years ago), in retrospect, for helping you through the unconsciousness of your attachment and becoming more self aware - it's not at all easy but, as I was told beforehand, it's like doing years of therapy in one week. i know you keep making these distinctions in how you feel AP/act FA and Secure. I wonder if you view ruminating and causing yourself pain as a feeling or an action. By all accounts i have read and heard. rumination is overwhelming and pervasive and so i have difficulty understanding how it can be compartmentalized as a non-dominant trait. Maybe you don't mean to minimize your anxious behavior but rumination seems to me to be a very major anxious behavior. I could be wrong. I view it as an involuntary mental action that is the basis for despair and it appears quite overwhelming In that light, the "I act secure" assertions you make are hard for me to understand. it's not important for me to evaluate that, this is just a response to your assertions. you may outwardly behave in ways that don't betray insecurity- but if you are caught in ruminating as you have shared. that is straight up anxious and insecure, if i understand it correctly. Again, it's neither here nor there for me in regards to my own process, i'm just responding to your assertions of behaving securely. It seems that the most pervasive anxious insecure traits are internal, which manifest or not as external behaviors. At any rate, i'm not on the anxious end and can only view it from the outside, not claiming any expertise on it. I don't go very far into it as i don't participate in the AP/DA dymnamic, for many many years. My experience of late with intimate relationship has been largely enjoyable and growth- inspiring, with dismissively inclined and secure people. The experience is vastly different and i'm on the forums to simply keep my own process moving forward. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 10:18:18 GMT
boomerang , trust goes both ways. you may be missing how you might have violated HIS trust. It's difficult for avoidants to trust that they will be treated with kindness and respect also. Did you treat him always with kindness and respect? are you expecting better than you gave? i find that AP here seem to believe because of the intensity of their"love", their EMOTION , they were good loving partners. They seem to be unable to connect initially with how their actual ACTIONS inspired by intense emotion; were anything but loving. i remember that you misunderstood your ex while you two were together and went off on him and your admission was ; it was really bad. very bad. do you remember it? i remember that you described it as being very negative against him. you shared prior to this that you were asking for adjustments and he was trying. at one point he said something like you always want something different from him, you weren't happy with him- something to that effect. Honestly, i bet he felt like shit with you sometimes. Criticized, misunderstood, maligned, blamed. and, then the big blowup. i'm sure he felt very justifiably angry with you and you keep reaching out.... it probably didn't feel very kind or loving to him. it may have felt insulting and presumptuous, i don't know. he may have just been sick and tired and done, and like he wouldn't trust you anymore and you deserve nothing more from him. promises may have become very meaningless and no longer of his concern at that point. by trying to make changes he may have been trying to express AND earn trust. then one day you blew up, because you misunderstood him. What about his trust? Things changed after that didn't they? and you kept reaching out after that--- didn't apologize till you noticed he was not really receptive to you? and he was abrupt and short with you? he thought you were done. perhaps he thought 1) you ended it with your blowup 2) you should expect to be done if you blow up like that, and if you think you will continue as partners after that you are mistaken there are two sides of a story. i'm not trying to go hard on you but this is all stuff you shared prior and it may have slipped from your awareness because of feelings related to the breakup. truly- he owes you nothing. if he feels disrespected and done with the dynamic it would be unrealistic to expect him to take care of your needs while his got trashed. believe me, he has a need for tolerance , kindness and respect also. you may have been unable to deliver on that. in an inscurely attached pairing i am 99.99 % percent sure that is the case :/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 10:24:36 GMT
boomerang did you read the article about avoidants feeling bullied by their partners? protest behaviors can be very difficult to tolerate, as he demonstrated by the changes you noticed in your relationship after the blowup.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 10:31:24 GMT
also- i do remember that you suggest you two get together "to wrap things up nicely" or something like that- you promised that it didn't have to be a big relationship talk.
but the implication was, the relationship must be over so let's wrap things up nicely.
well, why would he think that you were missing the fact that he was done and it was over?
he did not want to "wrap things up nicely" with you and may have felt pretty repulsed by that suggestion after you went off on him about all his past behaviors (seen through your lens of course!) and how awful he is.
all the expectations are unrealistic and i think, unreasonable and they totally disregard HIM.
|
|
|
|
Post by brokenbiscuit on Aug 4, 2018 12:47:02 GMT
all the dumping and un-dumping, push and pull, creates massive trust issues. It truly is a lack of communication. Its reaction not deactivation. It's not taking a step back to reflect on the situation so that it can be solved with compassion and understanding towards how the other partner may be feeling, but instead is a person vomitting out a immediate emotional response ("I'm dumping you") to try to show the partner how much pain you are in.
But the result you are getting back from your partner is not a need for him to reach out and reassure and comfort you which is what you want. Instead it's giving him nothing but fear and negative emotion towards you , because you have hurt him with your outburst response. So nobody is happy. And of course, this goes the other way as well with regards to how he treats you. There are no victims or goodies or baddies in this relationship. Just two emotionally charged people unable to get through to each other how they really feel in a way that is making the situation worse, not better.
I feel for you. I've been through all this shit as well and it hurts when you realise it can't be undone. Yes there is regret. I've tried to take a more compassionate approach to my behaviour (and my exs behaviour too, she was as guilty as I am. We both "punished" each other to try to show how sad and hurt we were were feeling). I've tried to see it as a lesson learnt, that this had to happen, that I had to go through this in order to realise. Once I realised and processed my action s, I could then work on changing my mindset and changing my actions and attitude so as not to repeat these negative self defeating behaviours in future.
"Hurt people hurt" is the old phrase and its so true. I can't vouch for how your ex may react in future, but I'm sure he knows how sorry you truly are for your reactions, and I'm sure he feels the same about himself and how he has treated you. I imagine his ghosting/no contact is a built up reaction to all the previous break ups you have already had. It's now self preservation on his part rather than a desire to mend a broken vase.
Is it too late to save this relationship? I don't know. Like I said, a lot of damage has already been done. You may have to chalk this one off as an essential learning experience you had to go through in order to reflect, recognise and adjust so you do not repeat these behaviours again in future relationships. It looks to me like you are already aware of this which is good. You are not looking to blame, but understand, so you are where I was not long ago myself.
Compassion is key here, for yourself and your partner. People often react quickly and emotionally and badly to high pressure situations with a lover. Forgive yourself for what you did, and know it didn't come from a place of intent to harm, and recognise that your partner did exactly the same as you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 12:53:38 GMT
boomerangfrom what i have read he did not even ghost you. he responded to your continued reaching out, he just kept it light, rebuffing your requests for time together, but engaging in small talk. please go read all that you shared in your four threads about this whole situation, with the perspective i have shared. he did not go no contact. he did not ghost you. you misunderstood, he was done amdndidnt want to proceeed after the dump you did. he did not go no contact. your posts said you just were confused because he never officially ended it. then you said you went NC. i feel this gets really twisted to justify the "ive been abandoned" narrative. i had a hard time stomaching all that you wrote this morning when i went back to read it. it's all your narrative but when you stop minimizing your part, it's clear that really the relationship sucked and was painful and ended badly and less ruminating and more acceptance and humility would be in order. I know that is difficult and that is why your focus needs to turn from him, back to you, because if you want to heal and move forward you'll have to do that yourself. i'm not hating but really, it can only be said that AP/avoidant is toxic both ways, end of.
|
|
|
|
Post by brokenbiscuit on Aug 4, 2018 19:45:15 GMT
Yeah, I must admit that I first came to this board to understand how my ex might be feeling after our break up, as well as get some bonus insight into myself and my behaviours.
As time goes by though, I have found it more beneficial to bring the attention solely to just myself. How she is is how she is. I can't change that nor would I want to. And she is my ex so I shouldn't care (although of course a part of me still does. That's human. I will always have a piece of her in my heart).
The benefit I have found by joining this board is to bring the attention solely to myself, listen to the words and insights and experiences of others to help get a better understanding of me, as I am the only person who can change myself, and really I think that's sane advice that we should all heed. Look at ourselves first, and the partner stuff will matter less later on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 0:21:49 GMT
boomerang did you read the article about avoidants feeling bullied by their partners? protest behaviors can be very difficult to tolerate, as he demonstrated by the changes you noticed in your relationship after the blowup. Juniper, the dumping was awful. I own it. But I am quite sure that other than that he did not feel bullied. In the early part, I am sure he felt blamed when i raised issues, but those conversations were clear and not emotional and very specific. That's why it survived. However, it could not survive the dumping. I actually engage in very few protest behaviors. I don't cry, yell, or nag. I give him his space. I don't threaten to leave, or try to make him jealous. We never had a fight. The dumping was not typical for me. That is the only time I was very emotional and said things I should not have. I know it was an awful thing to do.
My counselor says that I am what is called a "soft pursuer". Some APs are. I am highly activated, but I do not act it out. I just have awful anxiety that I do not express.
unless your counselor has heard as extensively from your ex partner as much as they have heard from you, they only have your own narrative. Based on your posting , the way you relate events, i do see you acting out anxiety and protest behavior. I understand emotion- i understand this has been painful. But if we set that aside just to take a look at the anxious preoccupied narrative that you relate, the negative interpretations of his behavior and assumed motives, and more, i would argue that your anxiety is not private to you and it is probably very well known to him. AP anxiety is VERY easy to detect , its pervasive, in tone, the way that requests are made or not made, the communication style and NON COMMUNICATION style, etc etc etc ad infinitum it is influencing your behavior and communication in obvious ways , i would be willing to bet. I can see it, perhaps because i am not in line with your narrative telling the same story about my relationships. I have earned secure / dismissive traits. I would say, if you want to know how you have affected him, let go of the idea that your anxiety did not manifest much externally, and then read i. the literature (like the article i shared on this thread) about how many avoidants feel when subjected to AP anxiety. Don't buffer it, or soften it. Read the open letter to AP's in that article. I am not trying to read his mine, i am saying, as a dismissive, i can relate to the article from the DA perspective, just based on the narrative you shared, what you assumed, what you said, and how you characterized it all. Strict AP narrative to a T. Yes, he picked up on it. Yes. He has shown you he doesn't want to talk to you. Yes. he has come back for th dance before. I have no idea if he will subject himself to it again. I have no idea if you will subject yourself to it again. What i do know, is that just one counter point i have to make about your claims is this: You are angry he went NC without an explanation. This is what you claim. Now read your words and see how you chose not to respond, based on your non-acceptance of his claim that he doesn't have time. He was responding every time you initiated, that's what you explained. You didn't like his response and chose to not reply. You stopped initiating. Radio silence. You went NC without an explanation, is that correct? I mean, did you say, "i'm finished, i am breaking up. and i won't respond or initiate further?" If you did, you haven't shared that so i am only going on what you shared. i read this post very carefully and see something different from what you see: jebkinnisonforum.com/post/12715i mean, i get that there are a million things we could argue about but quite simply, here's the question: whether you feel justified or not, not matter what assumptions you made, or misunderstanding you had, how you saw things, or how you felt: are you the one who actually went NC by choice without an explanation? you didn't respond, had no plan to, and said "at least i am not reaching out " You're half of NC as i see it. 🤔 with no explanation 🤔 when you used to reach out he responded. you stopped reaching out and he stopped responding. Yes, he is probably relieved by the way. Because the whole thing is nuts. Sorry, but that should not be news. It's called the AP/DA dance and you danced it. All i can say, is take brokenbiscuit 's advice, i'm all out of words to say focus on your self :/ i'm sorry you've had this experience and don't have anything helpful to add. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 0:27:07 GMT
you wanted him to "man up" and do something you flatly refused to do yourself. You didn't "woman up. "
not at all!
you thought about ending it but didn't.
it's all so hypocritical.
all of it is insecure attachment bullshit and you both played it hard.
|
|
