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Post by faithopelove on Nov 8, 2018 15:32:01 GMT
Might be. I don't have any experience with anxious partners only friends who are very emotionally needy, "woe is me", passive agressive can be manipulative to get validation and throw tantrums when their needs aren't met but they've never criticized me in my face. They do criticize others/partners to others to express anger and we also saw examples of this here too but I assumed a big part of it is preoccupation, that their partner will see the neediness rather than criticism per se. They tend to be people pleasers after all. I didn’t at all see expressing my preference to go out more as a complaint or criticism- just honest communication about my desire. His reaction was very strong- part of being a couple is communication and compromise. Expecting perfection with no voice or collaboration isn’t realistic. This is no way would’ve been viewed as an attack to someone who is either open to communicate or not overly sensitive to perceived criticism. AP have perceived abandonment. This was perceived criticism. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:34:45 GMT
anyway, i'm not trying to be hateful,
i'm just a DA providing input on the Trap.
i think it's pertinent, just for understanding what might happen in these interactions that are so painful for both parties in the quagmire. 🌸
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 8, 2018 15:35:08 GMT
In this case, I brought up going out more for the first time and I expected us to have a conversation about different things we could do as a couple. I didn’t see it as complaining but communicating my desire. In my experience, in the past, the conversation would’ve been a two way dialogue w no tears, fears or drama. I wasn’t expecting his sensitive response to the point he thought I was unhappy and leaving him. To me, this was like saying I like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla. I was raised with daily criticism also so I get how insecures are sensitive to that, but my intention here was to have a conversation about where we could go to enjoy ourselves. That was my first glimpse of his trauma. That night, it wasn’t my anxiety but his that dominated the night. I talk about my ex bc he’s my reference point to avoidants- my brother and dad as well but different context than all the relationship talk on this board...a lot of topics are relationship centered, as I’d expect bc human connection is an important piece in our lives. i understand completely, and i am not trying to be critical i'm just expounding on the DA perspective in the trap  Gotcha, Juniper 🙂 And I truly appreciate the 360 perspective. My whole life I’ve seen through my slanted AP trauma lens and others don’t always articulate like you do...it always gives me pause and stretches me. I need that!! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:36:29 GMT
faithopelove, i don't have editing in my phone to emphasize my comments directed to your general statement about him handling criticism, i wasn't referring to the asking for more time thing
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:37:08 GMT
i understand completely, and i am not trying to be critical i'm just expounding on the DA perspective in the trap Gotcha, Juniper 🙂 And I truly appreciate the 360 perspective. My whole life I’ve seen through my slanted AP trauma lens and others don’t always articulate like you do...it always gives me pause and stretches me. I need that!! i do mean well. thanks for the grace, i get that it's difficult ♥️ |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:40:13 GMT
and i have been multitasking so i may have missed something, just shooting stuff out as i could to provide clarity.
now i have to go to work. yay, at least i am healthy enough to do that now, onward and upward, let me see if i can stay out of the ER lol!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:40:23 GMT
Might be. I don't have any experience with anxious partners only friends who are very emotionally needy, "woe is me", passive agressive can be manipulative to get validation and throw tantrums when their needs aren't met but they've never criticized me in my face. They do criticize others/partners to others to express anger and we also saw examples of this here too but I assumed a big part of it is preoccupation, that their partner will see the neediness rather than criticism per se. They tend to be people pleasers after all. I didn’t at all see expressing my preference to go out more as a complaint or criticism- just honest communication about my desire. His reaction was very strong- part of being a couple is communication and compromise. Expecting perfection with no voice or collaboration isn’t realistic. This is no way would’ve been viewed as an attack to someone who is either open to communicate or not overly sensitive to perceived criticism. AP have perceived abandonment. This was perceived criticism. Everyone is different, even if they have the same attachment style. If the relationship had been rocky up to that point, he may seen it as a complaint and or a breaking point. It could be a deactivation strategy or who knows. He may have low self esteem and sensitive to any perceived threat. Humans are complex and the trap makes it so much more confusing. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:50:38 GMT
oh, and to validate the AP position. i think that's important. i just want to encourage any AP to find a partner who isn't dismissive because it's just so hard to find your happiness with an avoidant. even for an avoidant! lol. I'm dismissive as we all know and i just ended a relationship that i cherished with another avoidant, due to the same reason that an AP would. it left me sad and lonely when i needed love and presence. i understand it from the dismissive perspective, so i still view my former partner with deep empathy and love and sadness that he suffers. but i get it, from the inside: there is no mystery there. An unaware DA is simply unable to support you in your need for love and understanding and assurance. it's sad for me to see Ap suffering in a relationship with a DA, (and vice versa) because woman to woman, i support you finding the love you deserve. i have found some good loving. the path is to grow into personal emotional security and develop the capacity to participate with a secure partner. i still have DA traits, my partner has AP traits, but the dynamic is so mutually supportive. i want everyone to get there; and participating here like this is helpful to me to stay in my secure place and be mindful of things that have led me to where i am now. like alexandra said so well in her thread, i also want to keep a dialog of all this with others who want to grow. it's had such a huge payoff for me over the last year to participate here, warts and all. so it's meant well, it really is meant for understanding not censure. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 8, 2018 15:56:57 GMT
I didn’t at all see expressing my preference to go out more as a complaint or criticism- just honest communication about my desire. His reaction was very strong- part of being a couple is communication and compromise. Expecting perfection with no voice or collaboration isn’t realistic. This is no way would’ve been viewed as an attack to someone who is either open to communicate or not overly sensitive to perceived criticism. AP have perceived abandonment. This was perceived criticism. Everyone is different, even if they have the same attachment style. If the relationship had been rocky up to that point, he may seen it as a complaint and or a breaking point. It could be a deactivation strategy or who knows. He may have low self esteem and sensitive to any perceived threat. Humans are complex and the trap makes it so much more confusing. Yes, Mary...we were actually solid up to that discussion. That was our first conflict. He even said “I thought we were doing so well,” when I brought it up. I thought we were doing well, too. He was crushed that I brought it up- and I didn’t say more time together or apart...just that the time we were spending together maybe we could go for a walk or a ride or something. He prefers to stay in 9 times out of 10...couch to bed. I half lived at his house but we left the house 2 hours a month. I tend to be a homebody too but I think it’s nice once in a while to get out and enjoy nature etc. It was a not a deal breaker to me, just a discussion. I can see now though how AP neediness on top of any kind of suggestion to do things differently can be felt as overwhelming and overall critical. If I could turn back time... I think low self-esteem and sense of unworthiness played a role here too as I recognize that in him since...and I know I’m working on self-love in me. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 8, 2018 15:59:56 GMT
oh, and to validate the AP position. i think that's important. i just want to encourage any AP to find a partner who isn't dismissive because it's just so hard to find your happiness with an avoidant. even for an avoidant! lol. I'm dismissive as we all know and i just ended a relationship that i cherished with another avoidant, due to the same reason that an AP would. it left me sad and lonely when i needed love and presence. i understand it from the dismissive perspective, so i still view my former partner with deep empathy and love and sadness that he suffers. but i get it, from the inside: there is no mystery there. An unaware DA is simply unable to support you in your need for love and understanding and assurance. it's sad for me to see Ap suffering in a relationship with a DA, (and vice versa) because woman to woman, i support you finding the love you deserve. i have found some good loving. the path is to grow into personal emotional security and develop the capacity to participate with a secure partner. i still have DA traits, my partner has AP traits, but the dynamic is so mutually supportive. i want everyone to get there; and participating here like this is helpful to me to stay in my secure place and be mindful of things that have led me to where i am now. like alexandra said so well in her thread, i also want to keep a dialog of all this with others who want to grow. it's had such a huge payoff for me over the last year to participate here, warts and all. so it's meant well, it really is meant for understanding not censure. I hope we all find what we’re looking for too. I appreciate any support, inside and growth that comes from it ❤️ |
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Post by boomerang on Nov 9, 2018 12:04:07 GMT
So it might be that for DA anger=criticism, it makes sense why they seem sensitive to others then! yes. especially anger coming from an anxious partner. an anxious partner is not skilled in voicing their needs in a constructive way. hence protest behavior. which is often hostile. not to say avoidant are skilled at voicing needs. but protest behavior is more fight or flight, confrontational. avoidance is more passive, flee, freeze. the tendency i have seen in relationship is for anxious to say you do this this you don't that and then the tendency on the forum is to say he/she does this he/she doesn't do that with the focus on the partner, the unhappy , discontent, "it's not enough for me" focus. even boundaries meant to get needs met seem to be negative: i feel bad when you do this. i feel bad when you do that. instead of finding something positive to build on "i love when you do this, thank you! it means so much" it's all problem-focused and the solution is so often: BE BETTER!!! the partner is the "doer" or "not doer" and the anxious is the person with the emotional reaction. the reactor. so, AP anger does actually tend to be critical. an example is, say an anxious feels insecure, not worthy. reaction? My partner is cheating. an accusation or even suspicion of cheating is in fact critical of the partners character and behavior- it's not needy. it's kind of like character assasination. If an anxious feels ignored they will likely say "you're ignoring me" , at least in my experience. until they learn better ways of acknowledging and expressing their needs , anxious tend to sound very critical.I think this is very true. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 9, 2018 14:06:50 GMT
yes. especially anger coming from an anxious partner. an anxious partner is not skilled in voicing their needs in a constructive way. hence protest behavior. which is often hostile. not to say avoidant are skilled at voicing needs. but protest behavior is more fight or flight, confrontational. avoidance is more passive, flee, freeze. the tendency i have seen in relationship is for anxious to say you do this this you don't that and then the tendency on the forum is to say he/she does this he/she doesn't do that with the focus on the partner, the unhappy , discontent, "it's not enough for me" focus. even boundaries meant to get needs met seem to be negative: i feel bad when you do this. i feel bad when you do that. instead of finding something positive to build on "i love when you do this, thank you! it means so much" it's all problem-focused and the solution is so often: BE BETTER!!! the partner is the "doer" or "not doer" and the anxious is the person with the emotional reaction. the reactor. so, AP anger does actually tend to be critical. an example is, say an anxious feels insecure, not worthy. reaction? My partner is cheating. an accusation or even suspicion of cheating is in fact critical of the partners character and behavior- it's not needy. it's kind of like character assasination. If an anxious feels ignored they will likely say "you're ignoring me" , at least in my experience. until they learn better ways of acknowledging and expressing their needs , anxious tend to sound very critical.I think this is very true. So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. |
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Post by epicgum on Nov 9, 2018 14:34:41 GMT
I think this is very true. So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. Idk, at least for me, the more concrete, definitive and positive the ask, the better. So instead of saying "I'd like to go out more." Maybe "I'd like to go to X, it would make me happy of you would come with me." |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 14:46:15 GMT
I think this is very true. So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. i'm going to be frank here, and offer advice in answer to your question. please keep in mind my intention is to just help you understand so that you can see more clearly why things aren't working in spite of your good intentions. i can't read his mind but i can offer a bare analysis based on what you've shared. there's no spite in the following: Get him out of the fishbowl in terms of his mood. do not analyze and probe it. do your best to change your habit of being concerned about his internal state, don't try to help. don't ask. let him share if he wants to but leave that to his discretion and timing and willingness. step way back and turn your focus to your own internal state at all times, leaving him to analyze and work with his own in complete privacy. Get out of his head once and for all. i say this because i see it as quite possible that he feels very engulfed by you. perhaps deeply and consistently criticized, poked, and prodded to be other than he is, he may feel criticized and infantilized by a woman who at the same time wants to "help, support, heal" him. he may feel that just when he is relaxed you bring up a suggestion for improvement. he may feel exasperated by not being able to just be, without sensing your dissatisfaction, worry, and discontent. if he does feel so, (and who knows; i don't. i would in his position. but i'm not him) then your absence would be a relief, and unless you alter your approach he will not let you continue to influence him that way with your unhappiness. also, in terms of the desire for more together time. please read the thread i posted in the DA support forum where we are discussing in our safe space about the difficulty of that for us. This is why your request could have seemed overwhelming and the last straw, piled on any other protest behavior or critical words you may have shared with him. if an AP who had protested strongly or with regularity with me in the past asked me to plan more together time ( a capacity i simply lack, and don't care to try to develop a to please anyone at this point in my life) i would perhaps just want to be done also, whether anyone else can understand or support me or not. i'd just have to draw a line somewhere with all the differing needs and capacities between AP/DA. this request would shine a bright light on the fundamentally OPPOSITE drives ; its the very difference between AP and DA in a nutshell. and the price of being unable to meet this need based on my internal wiring and capacity, = unhappy AP = protest behavior = NO. NO . that's where i let go and just need to be alone and stop trying to fit someone's agenda that simply does. not. jive. with. mine. this post may or may not be well supported by AP here, but remember. i am not stuck in that trap, and this is simply a DA perspective of that dynamic and why i don't and won't go there again. trying to be helpful. but it's the hard truth of how DA respond to AP needs for relationship. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 14:47:14 GMT
So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. Idk, at least for me, the more concrete, definitive and positive the ask, the better. So instead of saying "I'd like to go out more." Maybe "I'd like to go to X, it would make me happy of you would come with me." yes. as per the velcro thread - all of us DA posting there need leadership and cannot do this easily At ALL. it's like walking backwards. not natural. |
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