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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 1:01:26 GMT
For me, now that i'm in much more stable place, I've the same concerns as you regarding family and all that grind of meeting and not connecting well. If someone is being fully present and authentic, rather than pretending to be authentic but you can see that in his mind he's thinking and evaluating me, it's actually quite annoying. I'm not sure if they're projecting on me - how do you tell? but I've definitely met those who think that they can suss me out quickly and make evaluations of me, and seem very proud of their own judgements without even verifying it with me - it's quite annoying and i shut down.
ah, sorry I wasn't clear about my triggers. I'm not triggered when not attracted or when attracted to secure/honest people. there're of course people i'm attracted to but we are secure with each other, and so that attraction is easygoing and easy to manage - there have been several but I just don't talk about them here, because for me those are actually good relationships that I can navigate well and feel secure and safe in them. in fact, that is when I get to know someone well and contemplate calmly if they are good partners to have. those are the ones i'm now comparing to insecure ones to delineate the elements that create insecurity and anxiety so that i'm very much more aware in managing insecure relationships so that it doesn't get out of control.
I'm most triggered when i'm attracted to DAs and there's been interaction for a while. The time spent together affirms that attraction but the dynamics are very awkward with alot of unspoken or assumed things. like when we can't ease into but we want to be in each other's company. that's when I think the AP/DA dynamic becomes salient and grows. It's like having a school girl's crush.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 26, 2019 1:20:03 GMT
For me, now that i'm in much more stable place, I've the same concerns as you regarding family and all that grind of meeting and not connecting well. If someone is being fully present and authentic, rather than pretending to be authentic but you can see that in his mind he's thinking and evaluating me, it's actually quite annoying. I'm not sure if they're projecting on me - how do you tell? but I've definitely met those who think that they can suss me out quickly and make evaluations of me, and seem very proud of their own judgements without even verifying it with me - it's quite annoying and i shut down. ah, sorry I wasn't clear about my triggers. I'm not triggered when not attracted or when attracted to secure/honest people. there're of course people i'm attracted to but we are secure with each other, and so that attraction is easygoing and easy to manage - there have been several but I just don't talk about them here, because for me those are actually good relationships that I can navigate well and feel secure and safe in them. in fact, that is when I get to know someone well and contemplate calmly if they are good partners to have. those are the ones i'm now comparing to insecure ones to delineate the elements that create insecurity and anxiety so that i'm very much more aware in managing insecure relationships so that it doesn't get out of control. I'm most triggered when i'm attracted to DAs and there's been interaction for a while. The time spent together affirms that attraction but the dynamics are very awkward with alot of unspoken or assumed things. like when we can't ease into but we want to be in each other's company. that's when I think the AP/DA dynamic becomes salient and grows. It's like having a school girl's crush. Got it, I misread (and thought you meant you were looking for the excitement of being triggered). I feel like I'm being projected on when the person is trying too hard to get to know me too quickly (seems like probing interview questions to see if I meet their preconceived checklist, but it isn't just simple dealbreaker stuff like do you smoke, do you want kids, it's like they have pages of boxes!), or have specific expectations about how the dates SHOULD go, or are idealizing me by filling in their own blanks and assuming things about me instead of listening.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 2:31:38 GMT
noooo. no excitement of being triggered. to me, triggered is not exciting. it's painful and physically very exhausting, not a lighthearted heart fluttering happy kind of excitement that's energizing. It's more like high arousal, fear, self conscious, being unsure of what to say and what to do, and also unsure what is going on with the other person. attraction is when i want to go close to someone and experience a little flutter and jelly legs, but trigger is when i'm on high alert and fearful.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 28, 2019 18:05:48 GMT
Another update. I really threw myself into meeting as many new people as possible for a while (mostly online). I'd guess about a third were secure or secure-ish, a quarter anxious, the rest avoidant (DA or FA). Of the secure, there was only one I actually clicked with fully, intellectually/emotionally/physically, but he came with one (most likely) deal breaker for me anyway and was the one I mentioned who met someone else who was a better fit while multi-dating. But was extremely respectful and direct about it, so it was no problem.
I'm mostly taking a break now because honestly, dealing with the non-secure people burnt me out fairly quickly. The seemingly anxious-leaning folks would do 180s out of no where (guess they could be FA too, but I got a lot of vague "something is missing," "only like you as a friend after sleeping on it," canceling future dates that they were the ones to set up in the first place) and the avoidant folks would just let things fade out, often after asking me out again but not actually setting up another date. I no longer chase in either situation, like I used to when AP. I want equitable effort and trust. I felt projected on by a lot of the seemingly insecure guys, in a way I didn't feel at all with the assumed secures, and it felt icky.
Again, the earning secure helps me depersonalize, not chase, and handle the frustration better. I may get annoyed/ frustrated/upset for a day (if it was someone promising I was excited to know better but really didn't know yet) to a few days if it was someone I'd gotten to know better. But no pining over anyone. I'm also pretty upfront in direct communication now, without getting ahead of myself before I know the person and it's appropriate (so stating what I want without oversharing relative to the situation).
My FA ex still is hovering in the background and chatting with me a little bit, but it's no longer a factor or distracting me from something new, so I can deal. I'm not worried we'll start a new toxic cycle because I understand his motivations. I just think to myself, "we really do love each other, but he has a messed up way of showing it." I miss our connection but completely understand that he can't meet my needs at this time. He was dating someone else for a while, not sure if he still is or not because I haven't asked and told him he couldn't lean on me for support when he told me they were having issues. Him "moving on" bothered me a bit but I got a handle on it (especially when it was clear he was repeating his patterns with her exactly the same, and he's still reaching out to me for emotional support he's not getting from her -- I don't want to be with someone who has to compartmentalize people to maintain distance in that way).
Lastly, I recently met one guy offline who I really liked, which was going great, until he 180ed it. In response, I told him what I wanted and pulled way back and now he's pursuing again but changed the terms to try to downgrade me. It's been great to be able to see patterns so clearly and quickly after going through all this attachment processing, but I am still a little concerned I'll look too hard for red flags with good guys. However, since I really feel a difference in, again what I'll refer to as, feeling like I'm being treated with respect from the small portion of the guys who strike me as secure, versus the rest who overcomplicate things too early on, I'm trying to just accept and trust myself on all this. I don't feel like I'm chasing off or running away from good guys, at the very least, though I'm frustrated that I can meet so many people and things still don't line up properly with any of them.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 1, 2019 16:07:01 GMT
Just an update to say... what dating as an earned secure has mostly led me to do is walk away from men who are interested in me but are confusing and less than committal. As AP, I simply couldn't do that (which is the crux of why I'm still single now).
I'm really at a point where I just want to get to know someone, which also means not jumping quickly into a physical relationship even if there's sparks. Insecurely attached men are really not on board with any waiting, even for just a few dates, and I think this is due to a few reasons... 1. perceived rejection (even though it isn't) 2. using sex as a means of validation and release more than connection, so their needs are more important to them than both our needs being equal 3. rushing things to create a fantasy bond yet also keep emotional distance.
If I feel like things are confusing and not unfolding smoothly naturally, and that it's even a little triggering, it's been like an alert that the date has attachment issues. Life philosophy has organically come up in conversation a little bit with a couple of these guys, and they didn't seem interested or open to anything in life that might be the least bit challenging, so that's a non-starter for me. There's very much power and control issues in there that wouldn't lead to equal partnerships, and a partnership is really what I want. I no longer feel like I need to be apologetic about that or hide it, like I used to when AP.
There aren't as many securely-styled single men at my age, though there's some. Sometimes I have issues knowing if I'm interested physically or feeling a little bored, but mostly we've just been legitimately incompatible and there wasn't enough natural attraction to overcome that (which is good, since ignoring incompatibility is a recipe for more pain later).
So... I'm still looking, and think I need to look more into activities I enjoy to find like-minded people I may be more compatible with.
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Post by iz42 on Oct 3, 2019 21:22:44 GMT
This is all very interesting and helpful. How do you handle the anxiety around age concerns and having an opportunity to start a family? I am feeling this very much right now as I come out of the haze of 4 years with my ex. I am concerned that this anxiety will have an impact on the way I perceive the whole dating process, which in the past has taken a lot of time and energy. It seems like I'll need to put ALL of this fear aside to be able to date as secure and move on quickly if there are red flags. How do you keep it from getting to you?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 0:43:27 GMT
i know this is not addressed to me, but I feel like this has been something I dealt with in the past year. I'm 33 this year, and I wanted marriage and kids my entire life (though actions will indicate otherwise). I thought I had that with my ex, but then out of the blue he told me no marriage and no kids. So, when i first started dating post-ex, it was something I upfront asked about when dating. If i had even a sense that the person is not ready to settle down (no matter what he said), I do not date that person (or if i did, seriously). Personally, I had decided I was fine if I didn't have kids, though I would like that very much, because that is something that is so out of my control that it's really the blessings of the universe. But on the dating scene, I said I do want marriage and kids, and have a real partnership, and Im evaluating everyone very quickly and harshly if they are partner and father-material. I have no interest in being attracted to someone, then dating them for a while to grow into a partnership, then have marriage and kids. That's something I think you have time for in 20s, but I don't have that time and energy to be dating someone slowly - exactly as you've said. In short, the anxiety around children/family is something I dealt with by making peace with the possibility that it will not happen. I will arrange for it to as best as I can, but it's not something that is truly within my control. Outwardly, the story is clear and consistent; inwardly, I'm much more accepting that it might never happen for me, and that has made it alot easier to date with clarity. one factor that contributed to that is.. i have friends who are married early and securely so. but they have lots of trouble conceiving, and it's really so upsetting to see them struggle because of an attachment to wanting a family. I have friends who did not want to have kids and oops, got pregnant on their wedding night (seriously!). so, it's just something I'm realizing I can't really control, and therefore should have alot less attachment to the idea of. practically, I find it hard enough to find a life partner, I don't want to go through the same struggles with having children.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 4, 2019 2:13:39 GMT
I think it's a good question, and my approach is different... first, I got extremely depressed for a few months while I explored all my options and realized that it was becoming exceedingly unlikely I was going to be able to find a partner, get married, and have a couple kids, in that order. It shouldn't seem this hard, seeing as how people do it all the time and I have a lot to offer, but it seems like nothing I've done in my dating life up to this point has had any influence over that. I have the family support to still try to have one child myself, which is really not how I wanted to do this at all, and I've been putting off that option as long as I can, but at least I have a "safety net" option to try... though I'm certainly concerned I'm pushing even that based on age. My depression around having to do it that way, and mourning that I am extremely unlikely to have multiple children or children with a partner, was pretty tough. But the reason it lifted, perhaps similarly in a way to @shiningstar, was because a friend in a very happy and secure marriage confided in me that she was having a lot of trouble conceiving and hadn't spoken to anyone about it. This was just bad luck, nothing she'd done to cause it, and she was going through a lot of the same depression / self-blame / emotional response that I was, and that actually made me feel better. That the way in which I was depressed and shutting down was actually normal, even if seldom talked about by most people. She has such a supportive partner and had no reason to blame herself because she's super healthy, and yet she still was looking for any way to blame herself, and that was ludicrous. So it was ludicrous for me to do the same. Us talking about the struggles we were having on both our sides really helped. And it's not like being so depressed was doing anything productive for me, so I really don't want to fall back into that hole.
Anyway, I've just had to accept that while I don't think it's impossible for me to find a partner someday, it's just not likely to be in time for me to have children. And, in today's society, that stuff happens. Happens more as a result of divorce, not just going at it alone and resuming dating later as a single mom, but it doesn't keep me from dating someone eventually, and without fertility hanging over my head.
In terms of how I actually act when dating, I put no pressure on the guy at all. I barely bring it up, and at my age, the guy often will bring it up, and I'll ask if he ever wants marriage/kids generally, and then leave it at that unless we get more serious. I just see no point in making a big deal about it if I barely know the guy, because beyond the basic yes/no on kids and marriage dealbreaker, just because he wants to have kids doesn't mean he's the right partner. And if I did make a big deal about it, it would just drive us both nuts. So since I want to assess that it's the right relationship without the kid stress, I do still take the time to try to get to know the person. And I can make fairly snap judgements about readiness and attachment accurately at this point, so if the guy seems to be insecure and not working on it yet, that's enough to make myself leave. And sometimes when I'm on the way out, I do mention that my timeline for kids is pretty tight, and the insecure guys get freaked out anyway.
One thing that's made that easier is I know a lot of people with kids right now, and have one I'm close to with an extremely insecurely attached father who is unaware and no where close to confronting it, and it's really driven home the point of how much harder my life would be, and how alone I might be in parenting, if I didn't leave those guys who weren't ready. Plus how hard it would be on the kid! Not intentionally on anyone's part, but the specific guys I'm talking about... as much as I may like them... would make bad long-term partners and fathers at this point, and I can't ignore that. Then I have friends in stable marriages who seem secure, and their kids seem a lot happier and less anxious. So having some different examples to compare and model against is helping me prioritize the right things for sure, in a way I didn't used to.
It's not like it doesn't suck, but I've been on the flip side too and had older guys panic at me about them wanting kids yesterday, and there's so much gross projection and it being clear the guy doesn't care who I am past I checked some boxes on a list he has and he's desperate. I am not looking to do that to someone else.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 4, 2019 2:33:08 GMT
I do want to add, I'm so grateful that I figured out the attachment stuff before having kids. I'd have certainly done all the things I see that insecurely attached parent doing if I'd had kids any earlier, and I'm hoping I'll be able to break the multi-generational trauma cycle in my family instead. Though, you never really know, but at least I'm better equipped in exchange for getting a late start.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 2:57:34 GMT
you're so much more patient than i am in explaining the process - I had the exact same experience of depression but I forgot about it! the depressive episode came from a place of lack, like i wouldn't have kids nor have a partner which makes me so sad cos i don't have these things. but when i worked towards security and being ok with where i am and who i am, that went away pretty quickly, because there was an acceptance and (i think) truly letting go of attachments to how my life should be.
I don't make it a big deal either, because exactly what you said about gross projection and I care about the person as a person, not whether he's a good baby daddy for my ideal life. It's a fine line. I think what I am assessing is whether this person is a good person, a partner for me, and if we do have kids, is he going to be a good father, in that order. That said, i bring it up very early whether or not it's a deal breaker and where his stance is on these issues; men bring it up very early too!
i don't pressure him on being my partner/father of my child, but it's important to quickly assess if our preferred lifestyle choices are going to match fairly early, rather than hoping and yearning to change it down the road (my ex's idea was to buy me an apartment, i live there while he lives his own life, and maybe never really integrate into his family. Wut?). my presentation of my preference to get married and have children is because i do desire commitment and a partnership in very clear and explicit form - that does not mean that i must marry and have kids for the sake of it. if someone says no marriage upfront (regardless of kids), it will be something I will explore more deeply as to why that is the case and decide if that is something I want for myself; there is usually differences in what commitment means and probably some baggage there. marriage and kids in itself are not the end goal for me, but I think the exploration of preference and motivations is a very important and interesting one that I have learnt to use in my compatibility assessments regarding beliefs, values, and preferences regarding commitment, adulting, and romantic partnerships.
you're absolutely right about being grateful that attachment got discovered before having kids. one part of the truth is also that since I've worked towards earning secure, my need for children has gone down drastically, to a point where i don't want to have kids for various reasons. I see all the trauma around me and how it's really unnecessary, and I just don't know if having kids is going to be any good for them, me, and society at large. that also really helped in accepting maybe i'll never have kids.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 4, 2019 4:09:16 GMT
I had also just earned secure and didn't yet have a complete handle on my new thought patterns either, so I was really confused about what I was feeling and that's part of why I had no idea if it was a healthy response or not until I spoke to my friend.
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Post by iz42 on Oct 6, 2019 4:42:05 GMT
My FA ex didn't want kids, and it made me think long and hard about why it was something I wanted. In a prior relationship, my boyfriend put a ton of pressure on me to have *many* babies in the near future, and it constantly stressed me out. Looking back, I think he was a covert narcissist, and having kids with him would have been an utter disaster. Anyway, over time I realized that there had been expectations about having kids placed on me in my family as well, and that having a child wasn't something I genuinely wanted or felt ready for. The responsibility of raising a well-adjusted child still feels overwhelming and I relate to what you said about the world being a traumatic place @shiningstar . It was a huge relief to let go of that outside pressure. And in the past few years I've been at peace with the decision not to have children... but now I'm not so sure. I think that if I were in a secure and loving partnership I would likely change my mind, and the thing that is most difficult is the realization that I likely won't have that option. I'm in my late 30s and I don't think it's something I would ever be able to do (or want to do) on my own. I know I will eventually accept whatever happens, but it's not easy. As I consider dating again, I need to be extra careful about not moving too fast or jumping into something serious because of my age. I never want to settle for a bad relationship just so I can have kids - it would be terrible for everyone involved. I really appreciate your openness about this topic alexandra .
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 20, 2019 2:57:40 GMT
My FA ex didn't want kids, and it made me think long and hard about why it was something I wanted. In a prior relationship, my boyfriend put a ton of pressure on me to have *many* babies in the near future, and it constantly stressed me out. Looking back, I think he was a covert narcissist, and having kids with him would have been an utter disaster. Anyway, over time I realized that there had been expectations about having kids placed on me in my family as well, and that having a child wasn't something I genuinely wanted or felt ready for. The responsibility of raising a well-adjusted child still feels overwhelming and I relate to what you said about the world being a traumatic place @shiningstar . It was a huge relief to let go of that outside pressure. And in the past few years I've been at peace with the decision not to have children... but now I'm not so sure. I think that if I were in a secure and loving partnership I would likely change my mind, and the thing that is most difficult is the realization that I likely won't have that option. I'm in my late 30s and I don't think it's something I would ever be able to do (or want to do) on my own. I know I will eventually accept whatever happens, but it's not easy. As I consider dating again, I need to be extra careful about not moving too fast or jumping into something serious because of my age. I never want to settle for a bad relationship just so I can have kids - it would be terrible for everyone involved. I really appreciate your openness about this topic alexandra . I'm in the same situation, late 30s, not sure if I want kids and find it absolutely terrifying, but I would have liked to have the option, and I feel like time is running out to do the work that I still need to do on myself, get myself in a better financial position and establish a secure loving lasting relationship with a man who I believe would be a good father. It just seems so unlikely and it hurts. Thanks for sharing, it makes me feel less alone. Most people I know in real life either already had kids, or always knew they didn't want kids and have completely accepted that they never will and feel fine about it.
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 8, 2020 19:03:56 GMT
I'm trying more seriously to meet new guys than I have at any point since earning secure, and I'm looking for a relationship eventually (while emotionally feeling no rush for one, want to take time getting to know people). Mostly it's been one or two dates with people I didn't end up being very interested in. Those guys seemed all over the place, which is now a turn-off for me. I recently have met two guys I like enough to get to know better, and they're also both interested in continuing to see me. It's been interesting to notice and correct my leftover AP behaviors if I'm at all invested in someone romantically. This isn't a question, but I wanted to share an example of how my attachment "recovery" looks in dating practice, in case anyone else is interested. Because some aspects are still slower going and not automatic/natural. I have to pause and think about them, then correct. One of the guys asked me to join him last minute for an activity I didn't want to do. There were very reasonable reasons that I strongly preferred not to do it due to my lacking appropriate gear. However, my knee-jerk initial response was open-ended and vague, not saying no directly but also providing a counter-offer similar idea (one that addressed the reason I still hadn't actually shared with him). I did want to see him that day, but he turned out to be set on the activity I didn't feel prepared to do. I realized I was being passive and not directly expressing my needs because I was afraid he'd make assumptions about me if I said no to his early-on date idea, and he'd lose interest because I wasn't being agreeably "perfect." This was also in part due to projecting a similar dating situation involving similar activity ideas from a few years ago onto him. (The guy from a few years ago has some type of insecure attachment and obsessively controls his environment as a result, so it's his way or the highway.) So I then responded by telling him exactly what the issue with the activity was for me, and said I felt a little silly about being unprepared but am interested in doing similar stuff that requires less gear another time. He said that was no problem and rescheduled a set plan to do something else entirely on another day. I really don't know him yet, but know if he's secure it really isn't a problem and if he's insecure, it probably secretly actually is a problem -- so time will tell! The whole thing should have been very minor and not a big deal worth a second thought, but it forced me to say to myself whoa, I don't need to be ashamed of my needs anymore, it truly is better to find out upfront if we're incompatible! And then course-correct and communicate directly. Still getting the hang of internalizing security in practice instead of just in theory with dating I actually did go on a date a few weeks ago, and it was red-flag city. But it wasn't hard to not be interested when one of the things he said was basically nothing lasts forever, everything comes to an end. Um, ok! So that means he already put a shelf life on our not even yet relationship before it even started. No, thanks. And I no longer feel like I am anyone who can be that person who changes a person, also no thanks, I don't want to date a project.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2020 19:52:07 GMT
nyc718, there's one dating site that outright asks how long you want your next relationship to be. If it was anything less than a serious-relationship (not casual like "just for tonight" or "a few months") yet open-ended answer, I wanted no part of it. Because they're putting an expiration date on it right from the start, and showing that they have preconceived expectations and they're not really open to seeing where things go based on getting to know the person. That, to me, often translates as unavailable. (My LTR FA ex on there has "a few years" as his answer... also, the question is optional.)
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