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Post by 8675309 on Feb 17, 2019 15:58:29 GMT
Also him working on himself to quit smoking etc means nothing for his attachment. Thats a whole separate thing, hes still emotionally unavailable to every women and probably some of his friends... being smoke free and becoming educated through school doesn't fix attachment trauma.
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 17, 2019 16:21:11 GMT
If you know you are unhealthy, and were unable to be a good partner for him, then sure that is painful but we all experience relationship failures in insecure attachment. Accepting that we aren't in a place to be a healthy partner is the first step in growth and change. As we grow, our relationships change and we change, if we are actively working with proven methods. Sometimes the change is just about being able to say No to what doesn't support us. I would say that AT has been around long enough to suggest methods of change and improved emotional security if someone is willing to adopt them. There are also many, many approaches to problems such as this that net positive results and improved capacity for healthy relating. None of them are effective from someone who defies them, of course. His life changes and phases are due to his own process. He clearly has done a lot of work in himself to be living a life that appears to be fulfilling and rewarding His time with you was a certain part of his phase, and personal choices he made at that time were about his choices, not about you. He has moved on to another chapter, another phase. This requires acceptance. If you want the same fulfillment and progress for yourself you'd need to overcome some of your defiance and issues that cause roadblocks for you and do the work. You stated that suggestions feel like obligations to you. My impression is then that you feel a resistance to adopting them? Maybe he is where he is at simply because he is open and willing for growth and change. Is there some part of you that recognizes your attitude is an obstacle to your own progress? Perhaps you see that and are fine with it, I am unclear. I am not impacted by your process or how you choose to proceed, but I'm curious about why you post- is it just to vent feelings? I am more logically inclined when it comes to problem solving, so I don't understand your approach, but I'm getting a general education on attachment styles from first hand sources while I'm here. Literature is only so helpful, hearing personal experience is much more illuminating. Is the resistance to change an AP thing? Or is it other things in your makeup that you are struggling with? Don't answer if the questions cross a line, and my apologies if they do. Interesting...I gather you are not AP and I gather you did not read my prior posts. I post to get feeling out with a community of individuals..some relate..others do not. I don’t really relate to your style...nothing wrong with it...just a different lens on the world and on attachment. It is interesting that you are picking up from my thought process that he is open to change and I am not. Perhaps it would clarify things by stating that APs have a tendency to be “other focused”...typically I will see someone I care about in a better light than what is reality. As to your other myriad of questions....I honestly don’t find them to be helpful to my situation because I tend to relate more to feeling rather than thinking growth (also, my dad was a psychiatrist, so I was told on a pretty regular basis I was “this close” to being normal...so yeh...words like unhealthy/heathy or abnormal/normal are not good words in my book). What looks like no progress to someone who is more DA or FA might be a huge step for someone who is AP. Being able to put feelings and thoughts out there that could be judged by others...huge step...requires trust. It is ok if you don’t relate to my process...but I would also then ask that you would not jump to conclusions about me or the man I dated based on a stream of thoughts from a regressed part of me...things are not as they seem....i was merely speaking to the way the thoughts do go when I go down that rabbit hole...which will always make him better and me worse. |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 17, 2019 16:29:23 GMT
Also him working on himself to quit smoking etc means nothing for his attachment. Thats a whole separate thing, hes still emotionally unavailable to every women and probably some of his friends... being smoke free and becoming educated through school doesn't fix attachment trauma. Thank you....really thank you...I needed this...more than anything...this. Because I do have a tendency to equate his external changes with internal work. I needed someone to say...look TNR....he made some changes, yes...but they don’t add up to this guy you are portraying him to be. He is not healthy and you unhealthy, he is not a better Christian because he has found community, volunteers, has bible study...he is still a flawed human...just like you are a flawed human. Thank you. I feel back in my adult space.😍 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 16:31:42 GMT
If you know you are unhealthy, and were unable to be a good partner for him, then sure that is painful but we all experience relationship failures in insecure attachment. Accepting that we aren't in a place to be a healthy partner is the first step in growth and change. As we grow, our relationships change and we change, if we are actively working with proven methods. Sometimes the change is just about being able to say No to what doesn't support us. I would say that AT has been around long enough to suggest methods of change and improved emotional security if someone is willing to adopt them. There are also many, many approaches to problems such as this that net positive results and improved capacity for healthy relating. None of them are effective from someone who defies them, of course. His life changes and phases are due to his own process. He clearly has done a lot of work in himself to be living a life that appears to be fulfilling and rewarding His time with you was a certain part of his phase, and personal choices he made at that time were about his choices, not about you. He has moved on to another chapter, another phase. This requires acceptance. If you want the same fulfillment and progress for yourself you'd need to overcome some of your defiance and issues that cause roadblocks for you and do the work. You stated that suggestions feel like obligations to you. My impression is then that you feel a resistance to adopting them? Maybe he is where he is at simply because he is open and willing for growth and change. Is there some part of you that recognizes your attitude is an obstacle to your own progress? Perhaps you see that and are fine with it, I am unclear. I am not impacted by your process or how you choose to proceed, but I'm curious about why you post- is it just to vent feelings? I am more logically inclined when it comes to problem solving, so I don't understand your approach, but I'm getting a general education on attachment styles from first hand sources while I'm here. Literature is only so helpful, hearing personal experience is much more illuminating. Is the resistance to change an AP thing? Or is it other things in your makeup that you are struggling with? Don't answer if the questions cross a line, and my apologies if they do. Interesting...I gather you are not AP and I gather you did not read my prior posts. I post to get feeling out with a community of individuals..some relate..others do not. I don’t really relate to your style...nothing wrong with it...just a different lens on the world and on attachment. It is interesting that you are picking up from my thought process that he is open to change and I am not. Perhaps it would clarify things by stating that APs have a tendency to be “other focused”...typically I will see someone I care about in a better light than what is reality. As to your other myriad of questions....I honestly don’t find them to be helpful to my situation because I tend to relate more to feeling rather than thinking growth (also, my dad was a psychiatrist, so I was told on a pretty regular basis I was “this close” to being normal...so yeh...words like unhealthy/heathy or abnormal/normal are not good words in my book). What looks like no progress to someone who is more DA or FA might be a huge step for someone who is AP. Being able to put feelings and thoughts out there that could be judged by others...huge step...requires trust. It is ok if you don’t relate to my process...but I would also then ask that you would not jump to conclusions about me or the man I dated based on a stream of thoughts from a regressed part of me...things are not as they seem....i was merely speaking to the way the thoughts do go when I go down that rabbit hole...which will always make him better and me worse. Correct, I am not AP, I'm DA. It's difficult to understand, for me, but that's ok. Thanks, and fair enough! Good luck! |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 17, 2019 16:38:23 GMT
Interesting...I gather you are not AP and I gather you did not read my prior posts. I post to get feeling out with a community of individuals..some relate..others do not. I don’t really relate to your style...nothing wrong with it...just a different lens on the world and on attachment. It is interesting that you are picking up from my thought process that he is open to change and I am not. Perhaps it would clarify things by stating that APs have a tendency to be “other focused”...typically I will see someone I care about in a better light than what is reality. As to your other myriad of questions....I honestly don’t find them to be helpful to my situation because I tend to relate more to feeling rather than thinking growth (also, my dad was a psychiatrist, so I was told on a pretty regular basis I was “this close” to being normal...so yeh...words like unhealthy/heathy or abnormal/normal are not good words in my book). What looks like no progress to someone who is more DA or FA might be a huge step for someone who is AP. Being able to put feelings and thoughts out there that could be judged by others...huge step...requires trust. It is ok if you don’t relate to my process...but I would also then ask that you would not jump to conclusions about me or the man I dated based on a stream of thoughts from a regressed part of me...things are not as they seem....i was merely speaking to the way the thoughts do go when I go down that rabbit hole...which will always make him better and me worse. Correct, I am not AP, I'm DA. It's difficult to understand, for me, but that's ok. Thanks, and fair enough! Good luck! I figured as such...I have a very good friend who is DA and she asks very logical questions too and does not relate to me at all (and vice versa) and I completely get it. What I am going through must look so unrelatable...but isn’t it cool that we can all be here together to learn from each other. 🙂. BTW...happy to see more DAs here. I definately have learned so much from those on the other side of the spectrum. |
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Post by sissyk on Feb 17, 2019 16:41:48 GMT
tnr9... Yes, it was clear in your last post you were just putting down in words the "story" you were telling yourself to get it out there. I know in the past you have posted about how your mind makes up unhelpful stories based on fragments. Writing things down is very helpful to me too. I get some distance from my thoughts.
Reading your story though it is clear you are telling a story that may not have any relation to the actual facts of the situation. You are idealizing him and what if any connection he has with the girl you heard he was sitting with once--and making yourself the villain or the failure. Is there a kinder story you could tell yourself about what happened?
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 17, 2019 16:45:42 GMT
If you know you are unhealthy, and were unable to be a good partner for him, then sure that is painful but we all experience relationship failures in insecure attachment. Accepting that we aren't in a place to be a healthy partner is the first step in growth and change. As we grow, our relationships change and we change, if we are actively working with proven methods. Sometimes the change is just about being able to say No to what doesn't support us. I would say that AT has been around long enough to suggest methods of change and improved emotional security if someone is willing to adopt them. There are also many, many approaches to problems such as this that net positive results and improved capacity for healthy relating. None of them are effective for someone who defies them, of course. His life changes and phases are due to his own process. He clearly has done a lot of work in himself to be living a life that appears to be fulfilling and rewarding His time with you was a certain part of his phase, and personal choices he made at that time were about his choices, not about you. He has moved on to another chapter, another phase. This requires acceptance. If you want the same fulfillment and progress for yourself you'd need to overcome some of your defiance and issues that cause roadblocks for you and do the work. You stated that suggestions feel like obligations to you. My impression is then that you feel a resistance to adopting them? Maybe he is where he is at simply because he is open and willing for growth and change. Is there some part of you that recognizes your attitude is an obstacle to your own progress? Perhaps you see that and are fine with it, I am unclear. I am not impacted by your process or how you choose to proceed, but I'm curious about why you post- is it just to vent feelings? I am more logically inclined when it comes to problem solving, so I don't understand your approach, but I'm getting a general education on attachment styles from first hand sources while I'm here. Literature is only so helpful, hearing personal experience is much more illuminating. Is the resistance to change an AP thing? Or is it other things in your makeup that you are struggling with? Don't answer if the questions cross a line, and my apologies if they do. EDIT: I ask the questions about resistance to change, because literature suggests avoidant are resistance to change. However, I am seeing patterns of AP participants here stuck in holding patterns for significant periods of time, who dedicate significant time to the pondering and discussion of what their partner/ ex is doing with their life (rather than what they are doing with theirs, at least as shared here.) Perhaps resistance to change is universal in all insecure attachment types. Also, clarifying that I am asking "Why do you post?" not to make you unwelcome but to understand your motivation, and whether or not you are seeking suggestions or input other than validation for your current state. Resistance to change, as all attachment literature suggests, is most definitely a DA thing. It’s one of their defining characteristics. tnr9 is open to change as demonstrated by her years of therapy and participation on these boards- just two examples that we are aware of...being accepting of change doesn’t make it easy for those who also use our hearts. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 16:48:31 GMT
Correct, I am not AP, I'm DA. It's difficult to understand, for me, but that's ok. Thanks, and fair enough! Good luck! I figured as such...I have a very good friend who is DA and she asks very logical questions too and does not relate to me at all (and vice versa) and I completely get it. What I am going through must look so unrelatable...but isn’t it cool that we can all be here together to learn from each other. 🙂. BTW...happy to see more DAs here. I definately have learned so much from those on the other side of the spectrum. Yes, it's an interesting dialog! Thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 17:43:38 GMT
If you know you are unhealthy, and were unable to be a good partner for him, then sure that is painful but we all experience relationship failures in insecure attachment. Accepting that we aren't in a place to be a healthy partner is the first step in growth and change. As we grow, our relationships change and we change, if we are actively working with proven methods. Sometimes the change is just about being able to say No to what doesn't support us. I would say that AT has been around long enough to suggest methods of change and improved emotional security if someone is willing to adopt them. There are also many, many approaches to problems such as this that net positive results and improved capacity for healthy relating. None of them are effective for someone who defies them, of course. His life changes and phases are due to his own process. He clearly has done a lot of work in himself to be living a life that appears to be fulfilling and rewarding His time with you was a certain part of his phase, and personal choices he made at that time were about his choices, not about you. He has moved on to another chapter, another phase. This requires acceptance. If you want the same fulfillment and progress for yourself you'd need to overcome some of your defiance and issues that cause roadblocks for you and do the work. You stated that suggestions feel like obligations to you. My impression is then that you feel a resistance to adopting them? Maybe he is where he is at simply because he is open and willing for growth and change. Is there some part of you that recognizes your attitude is an obstacle to your own progress? Perhaps you see that and are fine with it, I am unclear. I am not impacted by your process or how you choose to proceed, but I'm curious about why you post- is it just to vent feelings? I am more logically inclined when it comes to problem solving, so I don't understand your approach, but I'm getting a general education on attachment styles from first hand sources while I'm here. Literature is only so helpful, hearing personal experience is much more illuminating. Is the resistance to change an AP thing? Or is it other things in your makeup that you are struggling with? Don't answer if the questions cross a line, and my apologies if they do. EDIT: I ask the questions about resistance to change, because literature suggests avoidant are resistance to change. However, I am seeing patterns of AP participants here stuck in holding patterns for significant periods of time, who dedicate significant time to the pondering and discussion of what their partner/ ex is doing with their life (rather than what they are doing with theirs, at least as shared here.) Perhaps resistance to change is universal in all insecure attachment types. Also, clarifying that I am asking "Why do you post?" not to make you unwelcome but to understand your motivation, and whether or not you are seeking suggestions or input other than validation for your current state. Resistance to change, as all attachment literature suggests, is most definitely a DA thing. It’s one of their defining characteristics. tnr9 is open to change as demonstrated by her years of therapy and participation on these boards- just two examples that we are aware of...being accepting of change doesn’t make it easy for those who also use our hearts. I am unclear what you mean. I understand you to say that this is not easy for those who use your heart, meaning your partner? I'm sorry, I do not understand your sentence. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 18:29:42 GMT
It surly is but it's more likely AP will seek help or will want to work on a relationship, in my opinion. AVOIDANT is called avoidant for a reason, let alone DISMISSIVE. Most don't see relationships as a priority in their live, or that there's anything that can be changed with their behavior. Experts suggest that the real path to change is for any insecure partner to do the internal work on their attachment style and to find a secure partner. This is suggested for either end of the spectrum. An AP's urge to work "on the relationship" is supported by their insecure attachment style, if they are working on a relationship with a partner who is emotionally unavailable to them. In this light, I view an AP clinging to a relationship with an avoidant as resistance to real change, and a perpetuation of their dysfunctional attachment narrative. I haven't seen literature that suggests that growth for an AP partner entails remaining with an emotionally or physically unavailable partner. That would put a whole new twist on the literature I have read that describes an anxious/ avoidant "trap". While it is possible that this pairing can make progress, it would certainly entail the active awareness and participation of both people to improve the level of satisfaction for both partners. If an AP is working "on a relationship" with someone not also working on the relationship I wouldn't call that real change, just more of the same, with more awareness. |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 17, 2019 18:59:05 GMT
This is a really interesting discussion. What would happen if you dropped the narrative altogether tnr9? We all have our stories but behind them lies the golden key to freedom - so the DA with super independence, the FA with their coming and going and the AP clinging to love for dear life, they're all stories and behind all of this is what? It's what needs to be uncovered and allowed with reverence. For the positive amongst us the stories we tell are different from those of a more pessimistic disposition but in the end they are all stories and whilst it might make us feel better to hear that actually a partner isn't healing or may not be with a new partner, or that it's not our fault, or that it's our childhood speaking ad infinitum, it's our own clinging to wanting to feel better that is the real problem which prevents connection with what's underneath. The thoughts keep coming but there's no need to believe them or invite them in further, instead what would happen if you allowed them to do their thing without attachment and noticed what was underneath - and instead of analysing that, just allowing it to be, in your body, and noticed it's coming and goings. Is this something you'd consider tnr9? |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 17, 2019 19:22:58 GMT
This is a really interesting discussion. What would happen if you dropped the narrative altogether tnr9 ? We all have our stories but behind them lies the golden key to freedom - so the DA with super independence, the FA with their coming and going and the AP clinging to love for dear life, they're all stories and behind all of this is what? It's what needs to be uncovered and allowed with reverence. For the positive amongst us the stories we tell are different from those of a more pessimistic disposition but in the end they are all stories and whilst it might make us feel better to hear that actually a partner isn't healing or may not be with a new partner, or that it's not our fault, or that it's our childhood speaking ad infinitum, it's our own clinging to wanting to feel better that is the real problem which prevents connection with what's underneath. The thoughts keep coming but there's no need to believe them or invite them in further, instead what would happen if you allowed them to do their thing without attachment and noticed what was underneath - and instead of analysing that, just allowing it to be, in your body, and noticed it's coming and goings. Is this something you'd consider tnr9 ? ...I don’t know what that feels like in all honesty. You are not the first to say, drop the labels. We had a visiting pastor who told me that I was wearing labels that others had placed on me and now my definition of myself was “label based”. How does one describe oneself if not through a label? How intolerable, how silly, how immature, how selfish, how emotional..all of it neatly labeled by my dad/my mom/my therapist. I cry, thus I am emotional...I crave a man who does not crave after me, thus I am AP. And with the labels come both relief and shame. Relief to have something to explain it. Shame because I want to desperately to be different but I am not a “doer” so my road to change is not as swift or as direct as say...someone with more of a logical perspective. The stories...they are all ways to put control on what at times feels very out of control.i am trigger sensitive to the smallest change..and there has to be a “reason” for it...and if I don’t know..then I will just make one up that seems incredibly plausible...and then I will ruminate...for hours sometime...on a single image that mushrooms in my head. By the time I am in that space...I am not in an adult space...thus...emotions continue to build on top of one another...which is why I need to write them out. They develop lives of their own. I did n’t know why mine are of a negative slant except to say that I am a “moving away from” person (yes, another label) which means I know what I don’t wh ant but have a much harder time moving towards what I do want. Feelers don’t typically have a good sense of the body. I tend to go numb there while I can speak to feelings in grand details. I am trying to get better at noticing tension etc. i can can say that what I have been doing does not seem to work nearly as well as I would like it to...so I am definately open to explore other ways towards healing. |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 17, 2019 19:37:02 GMT
This is a really interesting discussion. What would happen if you dropped the narrative altogether tnr9 ? We all have our stories but behind them lies the golden key to freedom - so the DA with super independence, the FA with their coming and going and the AP clinging to love for dear life, they're all stories and behind all of this is what? It's what needs to be uncovered and allowed with reverence. For the positive amongst us the stories we tell are different from those of a more pessimistic disposition but in the end they are all stories and whilst it might make us feel better to hear that actually a partner isn't healing or may not be with a new partner, or that it's not our fault, or that it's our childhood speaking ad infinitum, it's our own clinging to wanting to feel better that is the real problem which prevents connection with what's underneath. The thoughts keep coming but there's no need to believe them or invite them in further, instead what would happen if you allowed them to do their thing without attachment and noticed what was underneath - and instead of analysing that, just allowing it to be, in your body, and noticed it's coming and goings. Is this something you'd consider tnr9 ? ...I don’t know what that feels like in all honesty. You are not the first to say, drop the labels. We had a visiting pastor who told me that I was wearing labels that others had placed on me and now my definition of myself was “label based”. How does one describe oneself if not through a label? How intolerable, how silly, how immature, how selfish, how emotional..all of it neatly labeled by my dad/my mom/my therapist. I cry, thus I am emotional...I crave a man who does not crave after me, thus I am AP. And with the labels come both relief and shame. Relief to have something to explain it. Shame because I want to desperately to be different but I am not a “doer” so my road to change is not as swift or as direct as say...someone with more of a logical perspective. The stories...they are all ways to put control on what at times feels very out of control.i am trigger sensitive to the smallest change..and there has to be a “reason” for it...and if I don’t know..then I will just make one up that seems incredibly plausible...and then I will ruminate...for hours sometime...on a single image that mushrooms in my head. By the time I am in that space...I am not in an adult space...thus...emotions continue to build on top of one another...which is why I need to write them out. They develop lives of their own. I did n’t know why mine are of a negative slant except to say that I am a “moving away from” person (yes, another label) which means I know what I don’t wh ant but have a much harder time moving towards what I do want. Feelers don’t typically have a good sense of the body. I tend to go numb there while I can speak to feelings in grand details. I am trying to get better at noticing tension etc. i can can say that what I have been doing does not seem to work nearly as well as I would like it to...so I am definately open to explore other ways towards healing. I don't believe there is a need to define yourself - whilst it may feel scary to let go of that definition, maybe that's a step on the road to actually being?
I wonder if part of what you describe as emotions are actually layers of perpetuating triggering thoughts rolling out on top of each other in a chaotic and unpleasant cascade? So many thoughts that the key to healing - the bodily sensations below, are blotted out.
How about we challenge each other to a month long experiment? A daily practice in sitting quietly with whirring thoughts and noticing whilst the thoughts whirr in our heads, what's going on in our bodies - and allowing. For one month, the speaking about thoughts and feelings and experiences can take a back seat to this more direct experience?
Please don't feel obliged but more than happy to join you along the way if you'd like - we could even make another thread.....
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Post by ocarina on Feb 17, 2019 19:37:29 GMT
I wanted to add - that was a very brave and honest post by you btw
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 17, 2019 21:04:33 GMT
Resistance to change, as all attachment literature suggests, is most definitely a DA thing. It’s one of their defining characteristics. tnr9 is open to change as demonstrated by her years of therapy and participation on these boards- just two examples that we are aware of...being accepting of change doesn’t make it easy for those who also use our hearts. I am unclear what you mean. I understand you to say that this is not easy for those who use your heart, meaning your partner? I'm sorry, I do not understand your sentence. Meaning the AP and DA may be in the same relationship but make completely different decisions and see things from a different POV bc DA rely on their logic and inner focus while AP rely more heavily on their heart and outer focus. |
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