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Post by ocarina on Feb 17, 2019 22:00:56 GMT
I don't believe there is a need to define yourself - whilst it may feel scary to let go of that definition, maybe that's a step on the road to actually being?
I wonder if part of what you describe as emotions are actually layers of perpetuating triggering thoughts rolling out on top of each other in a chaotic and unpleasant cascade? So many thoughts that the key to healing - the bodily sensations below, are blotted out.
How about we challenge each other to a month long experiment? A daily practice in sitting quietly with whirring thoughts and noticing whilst the thoughts whirr in our heads, what's going on in our bodies - and allowing. For one month, the speaking about thoughts and feelings and experiences can take a back seat to this more direct experience?
Please don't feel obliged but more than happy to join you along the way if you'd like - we could even make another thread.....
Ocarina, I would love to get on board with this if you start a new thread. I'm so desperate to get well. Please do Helsbells - I've opened something on the General forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 22:03:38 GMT
I am unclear what you mean. I understand you to say that this is not easy for those who use your heart, meaning your partner? I'm sorry, I do not understand your sentence. Meaning the AP and DA may be in the same relationship but make completely different decisions and see things from a different POV bc DA rely on their logic and inner focus while AP rely more heavily on their heart and outer focus. [br Yes, for these and other reasons this coupling is considered the most toxic and unhappy pairing. I don't think it's a simple as logic/inner focus and heart/outer focus, but there is enough out there to underscore the incompatibility of these two styles. While they may stay together for a long time it's not generally recognized as a happy and healthy pairing. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 17, 2019 23:05:47 GMT
Meaning the AP and DA may be in the same relationship but make completely different decisions and see things from a different POV bc DA rely on their logic and inner focus while AP rely more heavily on their heart and outer focus. [br Yes, for these and other reasons this coupling is considered the most toxic and unhappy pairing. I don't think it's a simple as logic/inner focus and heart/outer focus, but there is enough out there to underscore the incompatibility of these two styles. While they may stay together for a long time it's not generally recognized as a happy and healthy pairing. No, not that simple, humans are complex beings, but it’s two major differences that affect decision making in the two styles. Actually, according to attachment research the most common and successful insecure pairing is AP and DA. (After two secures and a secure w anyone else.) They are naturally drawn to each other and have the most to learn from each other if each partner will allow the benefit of that learning. Two avoidants don’t hang in with each other, they fold, and two AP’s are volatile. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 23:59:48 GMT
[br Yes, for these and other reasons this coupling is considered the most toxic and unhappy pairing. I don't think it's a simple as logic/inner focus and heart/outer focus, but there is enough out there to underscore the incompatibility of these two styles. While they may stay together for a long time it's not generally recognized as a happy and healthy pairing. No, not that simple, humans are complex beings, but it’s two major differences that affect decision making in the two styles. Actually, according to attachment research the most common and successful insecure pairing is AP and DA. (After two secures and a secure w anyone else.) They are naturally drawn to each other and have the most to learn from each other if each partner will allow the benefit of that learning. Two avoidants don’t hang in with each other, they fold, and two AP’s are volatile. All I have seen is that the Ap/Da pairing is considered "stable" because of the duration of this insecure match, and in terms of longevity it can rival a secure pair, but emotional health and satisfaction tends to be lacking as two insecure partners can repeat a pattern indefinitely. I have otherwise seen this listed as a Red Light pairing, and the least likely to produce true stabilty in terms of intimacy and emotional safety and satisfaction. This has been attributed to the dual triggering that is a mainstay of this dynamic, fueled by their massively different needs. The important part, of this is to be called a potentially healthy match, is having two willing partners. This speaks for itself. If one partner isn't aware of the pitfalls and willing to actively transform their own dynamic, it's the trap and it's potential is a fantasy not rooted in reality. Either partner can hang in as long as they choose. But without two, it's just the Trap. There may be literature that encourages this as a stable HEALTHY pairing, but I've only seen it warned against as an enduring, damaging mix of styles. If you can share what you are referencing that would be great! I've never seen a happy AP/DA couple, interesting! I've only seen AP wanting to go to any length for a very long time to try to make it one. I am intrigued though. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 0:11:45 GMT
[br Yes, for these and other reasons this coupling is considered the most toxic and unhappy pairing. I don't think it's a simple as logic/inner focus and heart/outer focus, but there is enough out there to underscore the incompatibility of these two styles. While they may stay together for a long time it's not generally recognized as a happy and healthy pairing. No, not that simple, humans are complex beings, but it’s two major differences that affect decision making in the two styles. Actually, according to attachment research the most common and successful insecure pairing is AP and DA. (After two secures and a secure w anyone else.) They are naturally drawn to each other and have the most to learn from each other if each partner will allow the benefit of that learning. Two avoidants don’t hang in with each other, they fold, and two AP’s are volatile. Here is an article by Jeb, and I think he probably does good statistical research but I don't know if it is cited here. He points to the fact that this is a common and long lasting pair but an unhappy one: www.google.com/amp/s/jebkinnison.com/2014/05/05/attachment-type-combinations-in-relationships/amp/ |
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Post by leavethelighton on Feb 18, 2019 0:38:32 GMT
All I have seen is that the Ap/Da pairing is considered "stable" because of the duration of this insecure match, and in terms of longevity it can rival a secure pair, but emotional health and satisfaction tends to be lacking as two insecure partners can repeat a pattern indefinitely. I have otherwise seen this listed as a Red Light pairing, and the least likely to produce true stabilty in terms of intimacy and emotional safety and satisfaction. This has been attributed to the dual triggering that is a mainstay of this dynamic, fueled by their massively different needs. The important part, of this is to be called a potentially healthy match, is having two willing partners. This speaks for itself. If one partner isn't aware of the pitfalls and willing to actively transform their own dynamic, it's the trap and it's potential is a fantasy not rooted in reality. Either partner can hang in as long as they choose. But without two, it's just the Trap. There may be literature that encourages this as a stable HEALTHY pairing, but I've only seen it warned against as an enduring, damaging mix of styles. If you can share what you are referencing that would be great! I've never seen a happy AP/DA couple, interesting! I've only seen AP wanting to go to any length for a very long time to try to make it one. I am intrigued though.
Some therapists suggest that if an AP-DA pairing has two people who WANT to change, then it's like the holy grail because as you say they have what the other needs for healing. For example, Harville Hendrix tends to advocate staying in the relationship to work through mutual healing, but he was a Baptist minister and seems very biased against divorce. I think he figures you'd just perpetuate the patterns with someone new, so might as well stick it out and break your pattern in the relationship you're in if both people are mutually wanting to do the hard work.
I can't say I've personally seen it work, but as someone who leans AP it's an alluring concept to think it's possible.
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Post by 8675309 on Feb 18, 2019 1:00:00 GMT
Also him working on himself to quit smoking etc means nothing for his attachment. Thats a whole separate thing, hes still emotionally unavailable to every women and probably some of his friends... being smoke free and becoming educated through school doesn't fix attachment trauma. Thank you....really thank you...I needed this...more than anything...this. Because I do have a tendency to equate his external changes with internal work. I needed someone to say...look TNR....he made some changes, yes...but they don’t add up to this guy you are portraying him to be. He is not healthy and you unhealthy, he is not a better Christian because he has found community, volunteers, has bible study...he is still a flawed human...just like you are a flawed human. Thank you. I feel back in my adult space.😍 And hes probably drowning himself in activities to avoid his avoidance or thinking all those things will make him happy when it wont deep down, it will just be a band-aid on a wound that doesn't heal.
Hes still walking backwards and you are walking forward.
This is not saying you cant be happy with activities, things in your life are good to have but I hope you catch my drift.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 18, 2019 1:10:37 GMT
All I have seen is that the Ap/Da pairing is considered "stable" because of the duration of this insecure match, and in terms of longevity it can rival a secure pair, but emotional health and satisfaction tends to be lacking as two insecure partners can repeat a pattern indefinitely. I have otherwise seen this listed as a Red Light pairing, and the least likely to produce true stabilty in terms of intimacy and emotional safety and satisfaction. This has been attributed to the dual triggering that is a mainstay of this dynamic, fueled by their massively different needs. The important part, of this is to be called a potentially healthy match, is having two willing partners. This speaks for itself. If one partner isn't aware of the pitfalls and willing to actively transform their own dynamic, it's the trap and it's potential is a fantasy not rooted in reality. Either partner can hang in as long as they choose. But without two, it's just the Trap. There may be literature that encourages this as a stable HEALTHY pairing, but I've only seen it warned against as an enduring, damaging mix of styles. If you can share what you are referencing that would be great! I've never seen a happy AP/DA couple, interesting! I've only seen AP wanting to go to any length for a very long time to try to make it one. I am intrigued though.
Some therapists suggest that if an AP-DA pairing has two people who WANT to change, then it's like the holy grail because as you say they have what the other needs for healing. For example, Harville Hendrix tends to advocate staying in the relationship to work through mutual healing, but he was a Baptist minister and seems very biased against divorce. I think he figures you'd just perpetuate the patterns with someone new, so might as well stick it out and break your pattern in the relationship you're in if both people are mutually wanting to do the hard work.
I can't say I've personally seen it work, but as someone who leans AP it's an alluring concept to think it's possible.
I actually agree with this. I mean, AP/DA over and over didn't really help me, but once I got into a couple AP/FA relationships, and I finally was in a situation where I was very attached AND we started speaking more honestly about our problems (and it wasn't consistent and straight deactivation), it made a world of difference for me. Prior to that, I was just confused and repeating with new people every time and didn't understand why that pattern was a thing. The AP/FA pairing was absolutely an unhealthy situation, but they both (especially the second, more serious one) went a really long way in allowing me to do the work to become more secure. However, because he was not aware and also doing the work, it remained dysfunctional and triggering, even as I otherwise approached security, and so it ended. But I actually do believe that if he had been on the same trajectory as me at the time and also wanted to commit and heal, we'd have been able to work it out and help each other -- not as a fantasy. However, that's only because we were also very compatible outside of attachment issues. By now, he's done too much damage (and still hasn't done the work), but at least I'm better at my half of a relationship than I was before we met. That being said, I would never, ever recommend seeking that dynamic out. I "woke up" into awareness in the middle of it already being a long-term and attached situation. It caused an unbelievable amount of pain over a long period of time and created other new issues for me that come with receiving FA inconsistency and lack of safety/security. Plus, since we got involved when we were both unhealthy and unaware and started with that kind of dynamic, there was basically no chance we would be dealing with our personal journeys of healing at the same speed. It's miraculous that it was such a strong (painful) catalyst to getting me to where I am now, but now that I'm through it I appreciate stability in others more than almost anything else and prioritize finding someone secure or as close to it as I can, if possible. I don't think I'd have the patience to deal with an insecure romantic dynamic at this point, but prior to my own healing, I strongly suspect I'd have stayed AP in life if I was dating secure partners prior to my own awareness, even though our romantic partnership itself probably would have eventually been secure. But I seriously doubt I'd have had such a profound shift in thought patterns and conditioning, etc. Sorry, I know that's a tangent topic from the original post. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 18, 2019 1:25:50 GMT
Some therapists suggest that if an AP-DA pairing has two people who WANT to change, then it's like the holy grail because as you say they have what the other needs for healing. For example, Harville Hendrix tends to advocate staying in the relationship to work through mutual healing, but he was a Baptist minister and seems very biased against divorce. I think he figures you'd just perpetuate the patterns with someone new, so might as well stick it out and break your pattern in the relationship you're in if both people are mutually wanting to do the hard work.
I can't say I've personally seen it work, but as someone who leans AP it's an alluring concept to think it's possible.
I actually agree with this. I mean, AP/DA over and over didn't really help me, but once I got into a couple AP/FA relationships, and I finally was in a situation where I was very attached AND we started speaking more honestly about our problems (and it wasn't consistent and straight deactivation), it made a world of difference for me. Prior to that, I was just confused and repeating with new people every time and didn't understand why that pattern was a thing. The AP/FA pairing was absolutely an unhealthy situation, but they both (especially the second, more serious one) went a really long way in allowing me to do the work to become more secure. However, because he was not aware and also doing the work, it remained dysfunctional and triggering, even as I otherwise approached security, and so it ended. But I actually do believe that if he had been on the same trajectory as me at the time and also wanted to commit and heal, we'd have been able to work it out and help each other -- not as a fantasy. However, that's only because we were also very compatible outside of attachment issues. By now, he's done too much damage (and still hasn't done the work), but at least I'm better at my half of a relationship than I was before we met. That being said, I would never, ever recommend seeking that dynamic out. I "woke up" into awareness in the middle of it already being a long-term and attached situation. It caused an unbelievable amount of pain over a long period of time and created other new issues for me that come with receiving FA inconsistency and lack of safety/security. Plus, since we got involved when we were both unhealthy and unaware and started with that kind of dynamic, there was basically no chance we would be dealing with our personal journeys of healing at the same speed. It's miraculous that it was such a strong (painful) catalyst to getting me to where I am now, but now that I'm through it I appreciate stability in others more than almost anything else and prioritize finding someone secure or as close to it as I can, if possible. I don't think I'd have the patience to deal with an insecure romantic dynamic at this point, but prior to my own healing, I strongly suspect I'd have stayed AP in life if I was dating secure partners prior to my own awareness, even though our romantic partnership itself probably would have eventually been secure. But I seriously doubt I'd have had such a profound shift in thought patterns and conditioning, etc. Sorry, I know that's a tangent topic from the original post. - Yes, and I strongly agree also if I had been with a secure partner than I would’ve stayed AP and not become self-aware with a shift in my patterns and conditioning. I guess that’s where sometimes a sideways turn can bring about a good thing! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 2:44:29 GMT
All I have seen is that the Ap/Da pairing is considered "stable" because of the duration of this insecure match, and in terms of longevity it can rival a secure pair, but emotional health and satisfaction tends to be lacking as two insecure partners can repeat a pattern indefinitely. I have otherwise seen this listed as a Red Light pairing, and the least likely to produce true stabilty in terms of intimacy and emotional safety and satisfaction. This has been attributed to the dual triggering that is a mainstay of this dynamic, fueled by their massively different needs. The important part, of this is to be called a potentially healthy match, is having two willing partners. This speaks for itself. If one partner isn't aware of the pitfalls and willing to actively transform their own dynamic, it's the trap and it's potential is a fantasy not rooted in reality. Either partner can hang in as long as they choose. But without two, it's just the Trap. There may be literature that encourages this as a stable HEALTHY pairing, but I've only seen it warned against as an enduring, damaging mix of styles. If you can share what you are referencing that would be great! I've never seen a happy AP/DA couple, interesting! I've only seen AP wanting to go to any length for a very long time to try to make it one. I am intrigued though. Some therapists suggest that if an AP-DA pairing has two people who WANT to change, then it's like the holy grail because as you say they have what the other needs for healing. For example, Harville Hendrix tends to advocate staying in the relationship to work through mutual healing, but he was a Baptist minister and seems very biased against divorce. I think he figures you'd just perpetuate the patterns with someone new, so might as well stick it out and break your pattern in the relationship you're in if both people are mutually wanting to do the hard work.
I can't say I've personally seen it work, but as someone who leans AP it's an alluring concept to think it's possible.
Right- the most important element being TWO willing partners. Show me the ap/da unicorns, show me the ap/da unicorns. They sound beautiful together, these creatures of lore, both willing and able to overcome their attachment injures TOGETHER for a happily ever after! Show me the unicorns, where are these creatures of legend? 😁 If they exist in the literature I want to know, it would perhaps budge my own skepticism. But I haven't ever seen it be good. I'm open to anecdotal evidence, even. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 18, 2019 3:35:24 GMT
Some therapists suggest that if an AP-DA pairing has two people who WANT to change, then it's like the holy grail because as you say they have what the other needs for healing. For example, Harville Hendrix tends to advocate staying in the relationship to work through mutual healing, but he was a Baptist minister and seems very biased against divorce. I think he figures you'd just perpetuate the patterns with someone new, so might as well stick it out and break your pattern in the relationship you're in if both people are mutually wanting to do the hard work.
I can't say I've personally seen it work, but as someone who leans AP it's an alluring concept to think it's possible.
Right- the most important element being TWO willing partners. Show me the ap/da unicorns, show me the ap/da unicorns. They sound beautiful together, these creatures of lore, both willing and able to overcome their attachment injures TOGETHER for a happily ever after! Show me the unicorns, where are these creatures of legend? 😁 If they exist in the literature I want to know, it would perhaps budge my own skepticism. But I haven't ever seen it be good. I'm open to anecdotal evidence, even. Maybe you should ask that question to an actual therapist who speaks with couples- I couldn’t show you one couple of any attachment style beyond my parents. If I started analyzing everyone in my life I may come up with several more, but that would be speculation as to their style and degree of happiness. My parents are proof of DA/AP making it work for now 50 years of marriage. I have read numerous times that the inverse relationship of AP/DA while trying works better than 2 avoidants or 2 AP. Doesn’t work. My therapist had told me that along w literature. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 3:54:22 GMT
Right- the most important element being TWO willing partners. Show me the ap/da unicorns, show me the ap/da unicorns. They sound beautiful together, these creatures of lore, both willing and able to overcome their attachment injures TOGETHER for a happily ever after! Show me the unicorns, where are these creatures of legend? 😁 If they exist in the literature I want to know, it would perhaps budge my own skepticism. But I haven't ever seen it be good. I'm open to anecdotal evidence, even. Maybe you should ask that question to an actual therapist who speaks with couples- I couldn’t show you one couple of any attachment style beyond my parents. If I started analyzing everyone in my life I may come up with several more, but that would be speculation as to their style and degree of happiness. My parents are proof of DA/AP making it work for now 50 years of marriage. I have read numerous times that the inverse relationship of AP/DA while trying works better than 2 avoidants or 2 AP. Doesn’t work. My therapist had told me that along w literature. I'm not going to beat the dead horse. I'm basing my comments here on numerous therapist web sites and articles, and literature. And the author of this site we happen to be associating with here. I don't agree with every point he makes but he is well aligned with what I have encountered elsewhere regarding the difficulty of this mix. He did a lot of research. Once more: the critical element is joint willingness. That will make any relationship more viable. I just don't have any further comment, but would like to see literature if it exists. I don't really have a personal interest in it beyond the discussion on this forum, as I don't intend to perpetuate an AP/DA dynamic. It came up on the thread and that's about the extent of its relevance to me. I prefer to work toward secure and find a secure partner if I engage in a relationship, that's my personal goal. |
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Post by sissyk on Feb 18, 2019 14:24:57 GMT
Maybe you should ask that question to an actual therapist who speaks with couples- I couldn’t show you one couple of any attachment style beyond my parents. If I started analyzing everyone in my life I may come up with several more, but that would be speculation as to their style and degree of happiness. My parents are proof of DA/AP making it work for now 50 years of marriage. I have read numerous times that the inverse relationship of AP/DA while trying works better than 2 avoidants or 2 AP. Doesn’t work. My therapist had told me that along w literature. I'm not going to beat the dead horse. I'm basing my comments here on numerous therapist web sites and articles, and literature. And the author of this site we happen to be associating with here. I don't agree with every point he makes but he is well aligned with what I have encountered elsewhere regarding the difficulty of this mix. He did a lot of research. Once more: the critical element is joint willingness. That will make any relationship more viable. I just don't have any further comment, but would like to see literature if it exists. I don't really have a personal interest in it beyond the discussion on this forum, as I don't intend to perpetuate an AP/DA dynamic. It came up on the thread and that's about the extent of its relevance to me. I prefer to work toward secure and find a secure partner if I engage in a relationship, that's my personal goal. I think it was Walt Whitman who said "I am large, I contain multitudes." There are lots of aspects to personality and lots of influences on couples and backstories and current circumstances. So attachment theory is useful to consider but it is not an operating manual for how people will always behave. X plus Y doesn't always equal Z. I personally have found considering AT to be one aspect of a situation and hearing and sharing everyones individual experiences most useful on these boards. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 15:07:30 GMT
I'm not going to beat the dead horse. I'm basing my comments here on numerous therapist web sites and articles, and literature. And the author of this site we happen to be associating with here. I don't agree with every point he makes but he is well aligned with what I have encountered elsewhere regarding the difficulty of this mix. He did a lot of research. Once more: the critical element is joint willingness. That will make any relationship more viable. I just don't have any further comment, but would like to see literature if it exists. I don't really have a personal interest in it beyond the discussion on this forum, as I don't intend to perpetuate an AP/DA dynamic. It came up on the thread and that's about the extent of its relevance to me. I prefer to work toward secure and find a secure partner if I engage in a relationship, that's my personal goal. I think it was Walt Whitman who said "I am large, I contain multitudes." There are lots of aspects to personality and lots of influences on couples and backstories and current circumstances. So attachment theory is useful to consider but it is not an operating manual for how people will always behave. X plus Y doesn't always equal Z. I personally have found considering AT to be one aspect of a situation and hearing and sharing everyones individual experiences most useful on these boards. In my opinion it goes without saying that AT is only one aspect of a person, or relationship. However, the dynamic created by attachment wounding is significant and predictable in many ways. It plays out over and over here and in real life. As this is a forum dedicated to the doscussion of AT, that's the lens I am viewing ThIS aspect of my recovery from AT dynamic in my own life. I have a particular objective in the discussions on this AT forum. It's useful to keep it there for me, as AT processes are why I am here. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Feb 19, 2019 1:11:20 GMT
LOL, yes, these unicorns pretty much just exist in fantasy and media fiction. But the fantasy!
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