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Post by toorational on Jun 7, 2019 18:01:51 GMT
Hello,
I need guidance on how to improve communication between me (AP) and my girlfriend (slight DA). Specifically discussions about some of her behavior that triggers me. I always feel that she despises these conversations and she's told me she wish things were just "simple" between us, i.e. without me getting triggered and the need for these couple discussions.
I had yet one more "episode" that didn't go so well (ended up in tears for her on the phone) with my gf last night where I mentioned that I feel that she rarely makes the effort to come spend some time at my place anymore (we've been together 2½ y) and how it makes me feel. I probably did a terrible job at it though because she somehow implied from what I said that I felt it meant that she didn't love me as much as she used to, and it hurt her. That's not what I meant. I know she loves me but we have a mismatch in our desire to spend time together.
The details perhaps don't matter that much but read the next paragraph if interested. Skip over it if not.
We used to spend time pretty much equally at each other's place but now it's more like 90/10. Because of our split custody schedules, we have 4 potential "weekend nights" a month we can spend together as a couple. Often some of these nights are spent with friends or other things make it so that we can't get a "couple night". So when there's really no hurdle to get together, I expect that we'll make space in our schedule to spend that evening together. Usually I'm the one going to her place these nights but for tonight (Friday), it would have made much more sense (logistics wise) for her to come to my place. She decided to stay at her place instead to be able to clean-up Saturday morning. That triggered me. Sure clean-up time is important and required but she could have arranged her schedule to do that Sunday instead or even some other time next week since she won't have her kids around. On top of that, she is currently working from home and so she's saving 10h per week of commuting. So I felt that she got plenty of spare time for clean-up and as I said, I would have hoped that she would have arranged her schedule to be able to spend Friday night together. The fact that she didn't make an effort to come to my place triggered me big time. I felt neglected and not high on her priority list.
In the end, the crux of the problem is that I feel that I can never bring up any dissatisfaction I have in her behavior without it becoming a huge issue. I probably come across as needy when I talk about my triggers and it's a big turn-off for her. She told me before that she doesn't want to feel any "pressure" in the relationship. Doesn't want to feel pressured to spend time together, to have sex, the send me loving text messages once in a while, etc. Any expression of a need/desire from me seems to turn her off as it's perceived as pressure.
So I'm always in a dilemma when I'm triggered. Either I speak up and hopefully improve the situation (which sometimes work) but at the risk of further damaging our relationship, or I shut up and just cope with it inside. I cope most of the time but sometimes I feel that I should be able to communicate these things with my partner without it creating a crisis. Most of the time I fail and lose "attractivity" points.
I basically need help with that. Any pointers appreciated.
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Post by happyidiot on Jun 7, 2019 23:29:18 GMT
toorational Are you sure that you don't deep down think her coming to see you less or prioritizing cleaning means she doesn't love you or care about you as much? It would make me (FA, often heavy on the AP side) worry about that. What are you feeling and fearing when you get triggered? I have the same dilemma as you. Do I speak up about my needs and worries or do I just stuff them down because I know that my partner does not respond well to any dissatisfaction? I personally think that speaking up is important, but we can be cautious about HOW we do it. Things I have been trying to do: - Not starting the conversation when I am anxious and triggered - Trying to make sure I DO talk about it when I'm not triggered, so it doesn't just turn into an even bigger issue the next time it happens (this one is so hard for me!) - Trying to understand the other person's perspective. Anxiety can makes us self-centered. - Not starting the conversation at times when I know it will be more likely to go badly, like before bed or when my partner is stressed - Watching my language for things like telling the other person how I think they feel (hugely unhelpful) or sounding too critical or using too many "you do this" type of statements - Not saying "always" or "never" or anything similar - Listening! Watching that I do not interrupt and actually try to listen properly rather than getting caught up in my desire to be understood - Looking for compromise and mutual understanding as opposed to expecting the other person to just do what I want - Showing tons of appreciation, especially for anything that has to do with the need I am trying to get met. For example if I am wishing my partner would compliment me more, I might tell him, "That felt so great yesterday when you told me how you like my eyes. I feel so loved when I hear those kinds of things from you." - Thinking about if something is really a need that is going unmet or just a trigger and where it is coming from. For example, I might realize that minor things are bugging me right now because I am feeling insecure in the relationship for some other reason, which might be the real thing I should work on. - Explaining triggered reactions as in a non-blaming way like "this is something that I'm extra sensitive about due to xyz happening when I was a kid and it's not your fault and I would super appreciate it if you can help me"
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Post by toorational on Jun 8, 2019 0:10:10 GMT
Wow happyidiot, that is such a helpful post, the best answer I got in 3 years on these types of forums. Thank you. You made my day.
Yes, absolutely, you're right. I think I realize now that I do fear that her seeing me less is a sign that she loves me less. If I'm being honest with myself, it terrifies me.
I had an epiphany tonight just before reading your reply. My "problem" is that I NEED to be loved. I'm doing nice things, to be nice, sure, but mainly because I'm hoping that I'm going to get loved back. Same with other friend or work relationships. I need to feel appreciated, valued. I realized that it probably stems from my childhood but I couldn't put my finger on it. Now I think I can.
My dad always loved my brother more. He was better in sports, less intellectual than me, more outgoing, more wild. More like my dad. I always wanted my dad to be proud of me. But it was my brother whom my dad praised in front of his friends. That probably left a big wound that I'm now starting to realize. That's probably the root of my AP attachment, my desire to be loved and my fear of being loved less. Also I was the dumpee in my other only two previous significant relationships, which doesn't help.
Thanks for all the tips above. Talk about actionable advice. This is super helpful. Ringing especially true is "not telling the other person how I think they feel". That was my mistake last night. I should have just said that I would love if she could arrange her plans and come to my place tonight and leave it at that. Actually that's what I said at first and she agreed to come. But dumb me I had to push it further and tell her that she's been coming to see me less often lately and telling her that I feel that it means that she cares about me less. That's gross misunderstanding on my part and crossing her boundaries, not respecting her the fact that she doesn't need to see me as often as I do and has other stuff in her life that she has to care about.
She's actually coming over tonight after all, despite all of this. Probably here in an hour. I'm actually looking forward to our discussion. It's like I can think clearly about the whole situation for the first time. I feel so terrible to have made her cry last night. She also didn't sleep well last night and I'm sure had a very off day. I want to make her happy, the last think I wanna do is hurt her, and yet, that's what I have done.
I'll try to keep all of your advice in mind for our discussion tonight. I'm basically going to do your last point. Wish me a bit of luck.
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Post by 8675309 on Jun 8, 2019 2:12:55 GMT
Id just like to add, not all this is you, even secure would bring up things about some of these behaviors.
Reality, you need to take a hard look, do what want to deal with this for years? Even if you change your approach will it really change much if they are not an aware avoidant? Huge possibility they will still feel pressured. If your trying to build a life with someone do you want constant struggle of getting needs met or one that flows like secures? Im not saying just give up but really think about this.
Im a secure and with some things you say Id feel a bit neglected and brushed off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 2:32:39 GMT
Id just like to add, not all this is you, even secure would bring up things about some of these behaviors. Reality, you need to take a hard look, do what want to deal with this for years? Even if you change your approach will it really change much if they are not an aware avoidant? Huge possibility they will still feel pressured. If your trying to build a life with someone do you want constant struggle of getting needs met or one that flows like secures? Im not saying just give up but really think about this. Im a secure and with some things you say Id feel a bit neglected and brushed off. Yep. I'm an aware DA and if a partner treated me this way I would not tolerate this. The way this is written, it sounds like she insists on her terms and isn't ready for a mutually satisfying relationship. However, as AP tippy toeing around communicating your needs and concerns because she has a terrible reaction, you're not either, and are under her control basically and begging for mercy, from what it sounds like. I've flushed men for thinking I'm at beck and call when it suits, and for depriorizinf me to fit in their little slots. That's just not how mutual works. How you've described her reactions to your communication makes my skin crawl because it's demeaning. Maybe that's just your perspective of it, maybe that's how she really is- but ewwwww. If she can't tolerate your needs then you're incompatible. That's true of most Ap/DA couples. But they persist unhappily for decades it seems.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 12:30:53 GMT
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Post by happyidiot on Jun 10, 2019 7:19:34 GMT
Wow happyidiot, that is such a helpful post, the best answer I got in 3 years on these types of forums. Thank you. You made my day. Yes, absolutely, you're right. I think I realize now that I do fear that her seeing me less is a sign that she loves me less. If I'm being honest with myself, it terrifies me. I had an epiphany tonight just before reading your reply. My "problem" is that I NEED to be loved. I'm doing nice things, to be nice, sure, but mainly because I'm hoping that I'm going to get loved back. Same with other friend or work relationships. I need to feel appreciated, valued. I realized that it probably stems from my childhood but I couldn't put my finger on it. Now I think I can. My dad always loved my brother more. He was better in sports, less intellectual than me, more outgoing, more wild. More like my dad. I always wanted my dad to be proud of me. But it was my brother whom my dad praised in front of his friends. That probably left a big wound that I'm now starting to realize. That's probably the root of my AP attachment, my desire to be loved and my fear of being loved less. Also I was the dumpee in my other only two previous significant relationships, which doesn't help. Thanks for all the tips above. Talk about actionable advice. This is super helpful. Ringing especially true is "not telling the other person how I think they feel". That was my mistake last night. I should have just said that I would love if she could arrange her plans and come to my place tonight and leave it at that. Actually that's what I said at first and she agreed to come. But dumb me I had to push it further and tell her that she's been coming to see me less often lately and telling her that I feel that it means that she cares about me less. That's gross misunderstanding on my part and crossing her boundaries, not respecting her the fact that she doesn't need to see me as often as I do and has other stuff in her life that she has to care about. She's actually coming over tonight after all, despite all of this. Probably here in an hour. I'm actually looking forward to our discussion. It's like I can think clearly about the whole situation for the first time. I feel so terrible to have made her cry last night. She also didn't sleep well last night and I'm sure had a very off day. I want to make her happy, the last think I wanna do is hurt her, and yet, that's what I have done. I'll try to keep all of your advice in mind for our discussion tonight. I'm basically going to do your last point. Wish me a bit of luck. I really appreciate that, thanks for your kind words. How did it go?? I tried to just answer your question rather than advise you about whether or not you should break up because: A) You did not ask that B) We have very limited info to go on and much of it is about feelings you get, rather than direct quotes of what your gf has said C) Improving your communication and healing your attachment trauma will have a side effect of helping you decide if the relationship is workable D) Changing your own behavior can in some cases help your partner to improve theirs (not that it's your fault if they don't) I do think that there are some cases where it may be better to tell people their partner is being a terrible partner and they should consider leaving, rather than giving them advice about how to improve the way they behave in their relationship, for example when someone is being abused, but I do not think that this is one of those cases and I think people might be making some leaps about your gf when we don't know much of the story.
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Post by mrob on Jun 10, 2019 14:11:11 GMT
I see this differently.
I’ve had the boot on both feet. I’ve had it where I’m time poor, and I am, am upfront about it and make no excuse for it, and have been told that it has seemed like it is all on my terms. The more they push, the more I back off. I’m frankly not interested in spending my limited time with someone out of obligation, nor am I interested in being told how to spend my time. Enough external forces do that as it is. Custody arrangements, business, both things that are far more important than a relationship. I’m not 21 anymore. A relationship can’t look the same in my 40s as it did at 21. It’s untidy.
I’ve had it where I’ve tried to be consistent, they disappear and I wonder what on earth is going on? One told me once that she wouldn’t validate me, when I was really only trying to get to know her better. So, yes, boot on both feet. I don’t ever want to engulf someone. It’s such a terrifying feeling, especially when I’ve known it’s an unreasonable response and have shoved it down.
I’ve just stopped contact with someone in the second camp. I decided last week I wouldn’t make the first contact any more. Lovely person, just a bit much on. I think about her most days, but resist the temptation to make contact.
Where I see this differently is that this person is entitled to spend their life as they choose. Allow them their own personal sovereignty. If they consistently make a choice that I don’t like, it is up to me to trim my sails.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 15:27:05 GMT
I see this differently. I’ve had the boot on both feet. I’ve had it where I’m time poor, and I am, am upfront about it and make no excuse for it, and have been told that it has seemed like it is all on my terms. The more they push, the more I back off. I’m frankly not interested in spending my limited time with someone out of obligation, nor am I interested in being told how to spend my time. Enough external forces do that as it is. Custody arrangements, business, both things that are far more important than a relationship. I’m not 21 anymore. A relationship can’t look the same in my 40s as it did at 21. It’s untidy. I’ve had it where I’ve tried to be consistent, they disappear and I wonder what on earth is going on? One told me once that she wouldn’t validate me, when I was really only trying to get to know her better. So, yes, boot on both feet. I don’t ever want to engulf someone. It’s such a terrifying feeling, especially when I’ve known it’s an unreasonable response and have shoved it down. I’ve just stopped contact with someone in the second camp. I decided last week I wouldn’t make the first contact any more. Lovely person, just a bit much on. I think about her most days, but resist the temptation to make contact. Where I see this differently is that this person is entitled to spend their life as they choose. Allow them their own personal sovereignty. If they consistently make a choice that I don’t like, it is up to me to trim my sails. I'm all about "sovereignty", as an avoidant myself. But you also admit to "using AP's (and secures) up." You and I know that an avoidant's "sovereignty" can tip over the line into using and emotional manipulations, relying on the AP's vulnerabilities and overcompensations to keep the relationship on their terms. Sovereignty is great in compatible matches but when we are talking insecurity, speaking to an AP who has been managed down to fit into slots of time, another conversation can take place. A conversation about not overcompensating and suppressing their needs for an unavailable partner. Incompatibilities don't need to turn into blame, and should not be overlooked while trying to twist oneself into a pleasing partner for someone who won't meet you halfway. Who knows what's really going on with OP, a few different perspectives are always helpful. As an avoidant myself, I have to acknowledge and respect the vulnerabilities of a potential partner knowing not everyone claims or values sovereignty as readily as I do. Some aren't familiar with it for themselves.
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Post by toorational on Jun 10, 2019 16:09:26 GMT
Thanks everyone for all the comments and sorry about the late reply, I've had a very busy and absolutely wonderful weekend with my girlfriend.
Friday was a very hard day for both of us. These full-blown "crisis" of the AP-DA dance are rare (4-5 times in 2½ years) but quite disturbing for both of us. I was honestly afraid that I might lose her. As for her, she was very sad all day, thinking how she simply doesn't know how to love someone like me. Not sure if she considered breaking up or not. I hope not but despite all the wonderful moments we spend together, I always fear for the worse when we have these kind of events.
To be clear, breaking up with her is really really not an option at this point. I love her to death and 99% of the time everything is going so well between us. I've had a short 6-mo relationship with a true DA and that was hell. This is not the same situation at all. In fact, this is the best relationship I've ever had. I didn't have any AP-DA dance with my previous long-term partner simply because there was no passion, no love. I was actually the DA in that relationship.
I'm not sure how some of you concluded that she treated me badly to the point that you would not tolerate this. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. She just decided to spend a night at her place to cleanup and do other chores rather than spend a night with me. When I said that I'd prefer if she came over, she changed her plans and obliged. I was hurt that she didn't have the same priorities than me but I now understand that it's normal that we have differing priorities at times and I simply have to voice my needs for time together. It doesn't diminish her love for me.
A bit more details about Friday night.. When she eventually showed up, I basically explained everything I wrote in my 2nd post. She was really overjoyed that I seemed to have found an explanation for my behavior. She was also relieved to know that I realize that her behavior was not an indication that she was loving me any less. About Friday night, she told me she had lots on her todo list and was highly focused on that. She told me that sometimes I just have to "stop her", i.e. make her realize that she's in that zone and voice my needs.
We also discussed our differing "need to be loved" and that was enlightening. As I explained above, I now realize that I have a stronger than normal need to be loved and appreciated because of my past with my dad. On her side, she probably has a much lower need to be loved by others. She was bullied a lot in school because of a nose malformation (now fixed) and had to learn to dismiss other's opinion of her and be very self-reliant. So she doesn't need other's approval or love to be happy.
Because of this, she doesn't "miss" me when we're not together, she can still be perfectly happy. She also doesn't miss her own children on the weeks she's not with them. Doesn't mean she loves them any less.
So bottom line is that I feel that I now understand her quite a bit better than before and I understand myself better as well. It doesn't mean that I won't have bouts of anxiety from her behavior anymore, but from now on, I'll voice my needs instead of secretly hoping that she will read my mind and show me love in the way that I want.
As a concrete example, this week she doesn't have her kids and doesn't need to commute for work (her work is near my place). So I was afraid that she might spend the whole week without driving to see me (35 min drive). She very well might have if I didn't say anything but I told her that I'd really like if she came one night to have diner with me and my kids. Beforehand, I would have secretly hoped that she would decide on her own to visit me and be hurt if she didn't.
I'm hopeful for the future because she has been understanding and willing to adapt her behavior previously. For example, a few months ago, I voiced my need for more frequent texting of loving messages. I told her that I felt ignored when I didn't hear from her all day. She told me that she often thought about me but didn't necessarily send a text when she did because she's not big on texting. But now she sends me lovely texts much more often because she knows I appreciate that. Best of all, she does this naturally now, without feeling pressured to do so (she told me so).
Anyway, sorry this has been long but you guys have been very generous with your answers so I just wanted to cover everything I could think of.
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Post by toorational on Jun 10, 2019 20:59:01 GMT
I feel like I should add some more positive info about my girlfriend because it looks like I painted her in a bad light from people's reaction. Even though she doesn't like texting, she's usually the one calling, that's her way of keeping in touch. She will very often call me during her commute either in the morning or afternoon. She does sweet things once in a while such as leaving me loving notes, plan a surprise get-away weekend, cook very nice diners for us (I do too). We also share the same sports interest and do them together. We are extremely compatible in bed (never knew sex could be that good).
True, she's not very romantic. I'm more like the typical girl and her the typical guy in that relationship. But she's receptive to my needs (such as the texting bit above).
Most importantly, we are extremely comfortable and happy when we're together. Oh and she's absolutely drop dead gorgeous, has a very nice and friendly personality and is always positive and upbeat.
I love her.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 21:22:10 GMT
I feel like I should add some more positive info about my girlfriend because it looks like I painted her in a bad light from people's reaction. Even though she doesn't like texting, she's usually the one calling, that's her way of keeping in touch. She will very often call me during her commute either in the morning or afternoon. She does sweet things once in a while such as leaving me loving notes, plan a surprise get-away weekend, cook very nice diners for us (I do too). We also share the same sports interest and do them together. We are extremely compatible in bed (never knew sex could be that good). True, she's not very romantic. I'm more like the typical girl and her the typical guy in that relationship. But she's receptive to my needs (such as the texting bit above). Most importantly, we are extremely comfortable and happy when we're together. Oh and she's absolutely drop dead gorgeous, has a very nice and friendly personality and is always positive and upbeat. I love her. And there you have it. triggered AP do tend to portray their partners in a negative light. If you can learn about your communication and apply that to your interactions it may be helpful. Lead with the positive. Appreciate efforts. You really made it sound like she just can't be bothered with you or your needs and feelings and if you ask it's a big crisis.
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Post by toorational on Jun 10, 2019 21:33:36 GMT
I wasn't clear then, sorry about that. The crises stem not when I voice my needs but rather when I question her love for me when she doesn't read my mind and doesn't act the way I would like. When the whole thing started Thursday night, there was no crisis when I asked her to come over Friday night. She was willing to meet my need. But then I brought up that I feel like she is spending less time at my place than she used to, that it makes me feel neglected and somehow she implied that I felt that she loved me less because of that (probably what I was thinking without saying it). So it was me criticizing her past behavior and doubting her love that created the crisis. Not asking her to meet my needs.
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Post by mrob on Jun 10, 2019 23:11:15 GMT
@sherry, I’ve never intentionally used someone up. That’s the way the dance has played out. Generally I’ll get triggered when someone wants to make the relationship official too quickly, introduce me to family, or I find out their intentions are to move in (that’s the big one). I feel cornered, engulfed, i back off. The pressure goes down, I see the positive sides and circle for contact. Rinse and repeat. Totally triggered and unintentional. Totally seen by most secures and APs as being used up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 23:22:00 GMT
mrob I totally get that. But the unintended results are still there- both parties face them. So I'm just trying to encourage AP to not overcompensate, realizing that their inclination may be to do so based on their personal insecurities. Follow up posts by OP lent some clarity though.
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