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Post by iz42 on Nov 26, 2019 2:11:36 GMT
Honestly the friend that triggered you sounds kind of toxic. I can't imagine bragging about my great life and weight loss like that. I don't mean to sidetrack this thread but what you said really struck me. I've lost weight this year but it was due to grief, depression, and disordered eating. People compliment me all the time and I don't know what to say. I feel like body comments in general are rarely helpful and most of the time they are upsetting and triggering. Your friend may be dealing with a lot of insecurity that she's not acknowledging, but that doesn't excuse the behavior.
I've done a lot of work in the past few years to stop buying into stereotypes about thinner = more attractive or healthier. It has helped, but it's really challenging when other people put so much emphasis on being thin as a status symbol. I'm focusing on trying to take care of myself, recovering from disordered eating, and tuning that stuff out. Sending good thoughts your way.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 26, 2019 3:21:06 GMT
caro - Sorry you experienced that night and your friend’s poor behavior. Many years ago I used to have friends that would drag me down, but now I avoid them at all costs. It’s just not worth the detriment to my mental health. If feelings are an indicator then it’s probably wise to hang with other friends who are more uplifting and understanding, at least for some time or possibly forever! I was listening to a video just yesterday about how harmful it is to compare yourself to others. You have what they don’t have and they have things that you don’t have but wish you had, but at the end of the day we don’t know what’s really going on with people behind closed doors. We all struggle in some way- we all have issues of some kind, but to compare yourself to others in your own life or on social media undermines your own well-being. Appreciate, accept and cherish you. Inside and out...and the places you don’t feel you’ve arrived yet- there’s time to work on those areas. As long as we’re living there is time. 🙂 Try to be patient and kind to yourself and extend the grace to yourself that you freely give to others. Hugs 💕
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Post by serenity on Nov 26, 2019 9:53:52 GMT
Hugs Caroline <3
I've been thinking about you, and struggling to think of something helpful or encouraging to say. I think a social situation like that would put me off too probably; I was in a support group once where members called those social situations `Dog and Pony shows' (lol). Its a lot of posturing and celebrating shallow forms of success, and a ton of judging. People who'd grown up heavily criticized and made to feel they needed to be superficially perfect to earn scraps of love , found those situations very triggering. I read personal accounts about this many times.
I don't know if those friends are overly emotionally dismissive or not, but I've never thought you a burden or overly emotional at all. Your honesty, insight, care, and humility are truly beautiful, a gift to this forum, and any friend should be honored to have you in their life. I feel better for having met you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 3:02:00 GMT
caro I want to make it clear that I don't have an expectation for what you do, and have only weighed in with opinions and discussion, what I would do or what I think. It's a great learning process for everyone to bat things around , but ultimately it's your situation and you will do what is right for you at this time. I support that no matter what, just being clear on that.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 28, 2019 3:05:42 GMT
Maybe a definitional thing. I agree you can hold onto someone for a long time and not be in contact. And that it isn't healthy. Regardless, I am still in contact with him — yet I'm not reaching out anymore. I can't just turn off caring about someone or wanting to help / for them to feel like they could come to me if they needed to. Esp not someone going through what he is going through in the depths of what he is going through (and I do know this for a fact). As I've said before, I'm not mad at him. Yes, he's been dismissive towards me and avoiding certain things... but I don't think he's intentionally trying to hurt me. I don't think he's a narcissist. I think he's FA, he's going through severe depression, and that I broke some trust. We collectively could argue the last one all day, and would never know unless he told me — but that's my consistent, strong gut reaction from knowing him. If I'm wrong, then well, I'm wrong... and I may never know anyways. But I can't just turn off my feelings, I'm not an avoidant who can more easily dismiss someone or a super strong-willed or whatever kind of person who can do that. I've given myself a timeline — with built in time for him to reach out and broach resolving and later for me to fully proceed with moving on 100% — and in that meantime for me to focus on myself and only me. I'm trying my best to process my issues, focus on me, etc. It's like I'm trying to hit pause on even thinking about the situation of current, and working to process my own things — which I've been trying to write out here. I understand my thinking may not what some others want me to do — as it's clear several people want me to go NC, but I don't personally think his actions and knowing his condition justify that for the kind of person I am and how I handle things. I would love to still be able to write here, process, etc, as it helps a lot. And maybe he's just being an asshole to me — and I look foolish — I don't know that for sure it isn't the case either. It doesn't feel like it and others who know more details don't think so either, but again — until he opens up about his feelings, I have no real idea. - Yes, in some cases they aren’t being jerks or trying to hurt people. Some people cope best by suppressing, going numb and not feeling at all. Maybe he isn’t focusing on any of your stuff because it feels better to him not to focus on relationships. It’s hard to think we could be spending time, energy and losing sleep over a person who is going along their way, but it may be their default mode of coping. I like that you have a timeline. Keep reminding yourself you have one in case you get overly frustrated. I think you’ve been amazingly patient! |
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Post by iz42 on Nov 28, 2019 5:14:49 GMT
caro I want to make it clear that I don't have an expectation for what you do, and have only weighed in with opinions and discussion, what I would do or what I think. It's a great learning process for everyone to bat things around , but ultimately it's your situation and you will do what is right for you at this time. I support that no matter what, just being clear on that. Thank you, and I very much appreciate opinions, weighing in, etc — it helps me to learn how other people view things, give me more "roundness", and it does help. VERY much appreciate it. I guess I've just been feeling weak or guilty or like I'm letting this great support system here down because I'm not going NC. But hey, I guess that's the AP in me and what I'm working on... doing what is best / feels right to me (NOT in a triggered state or etc, but overtime / thought out / calm / etc) and not feeling guilty about it. I've been thinking about that concept also in relation to the holidays. I've been feeling selfish that I don't want to go home for either holiday this year, and I feel like I'm ungrateful as so many people don't have families at all... but I think where I'm at on this emotional healing journey, it just doesn't feel healthy for me to be around my mom's criticism, etc. Anyway, so this all has been on my mind lately and maybe making me a little defensive or whatever. I get this. When I first posted here I felt like I was going to disappoint everyone if I didn't do what they were recommending (which was to ditch my plan for starting NC in 2 weeks and instead start immediately). From the response I got, it seemed like there was a right and wrong way to handle things. I think it's my people-pleasing side that wanted to follow the advice/ show that I was being "good" by blocking my ex immediately. Ultimately it's your life and you get to decide how to handle things. It's not about letting "us" internet strangers down, it's just about staying true to yourself. And it sounds like you're doing a great job with that! |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 28, 2019 6:24:58 GMT
Thank you, and I very much appreciate opinions, weighing in, etc — it helps me to learn how other people view things, give me more "roundness", and it does help. VERY much appreciate it. I guess I've just been feeling weak or guilty or like I'm letting this great support system here down because I'm not going NC. I get this. When I first posted here I felt like I was going to disappoint everyone if I didn't do what they were recommending (which was to ditch my plan for starting NC in 2 weeks and instead start immediately). From the response I got, it seemed like there was a right and wrong way to handle things. I think it's my people-pleasing side that wanted to follow the advice/ show that I was being "good" by blocking my ex immediately. Ultimately it's your life and you get to decide how to handle things. It's not about letting "us" internet strangers down, it's just about staying true to yourself. And it sounds like you're doing a great job with that! Agree. Although this forum is very helpful and knowledgeable, we must remember that the most of us are just ordinary people struggeling. We are not experts or therapists. And we cannot possible see the whole picture in every situation. You have to rely on your intuition. There is alot of projection going on in here, I am guilty of it myself. I see people giving the same advise in many different threads, even if the situations are different and the information is scarce. Maybe because we have "seen the light" and want others to see it as well. But it might not be applicable for each and everyone of us. I find this forum most helpful when I get to see different perspectives, specially from avoidants, which I am very greatful for. I would not have been this enlightened without it. The input gives my intuition a better desicion basis. But ultimately I am the one that have to live with my desicions. And in my body I can feel what is the right next step. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 28, 2019 7:00:28 GMT
In the book Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl I read about breakups yesterday. The author suggests a Get Out Plan as an alternativ. More like a step down or fade out:
"For some, if you break up or cut contact now, you'll jerk back. The Get Out Plan is a watered down version of No Contact, that enables you to plan your escape route with a carefully coordinated effort of easing out of the relationship in preparation for breaking up and cutting contact. It gives you an opportunity to reconcile your illusions with reality and prepare yourself, emotionally and figuratively, making it less of a shock to the system."
"If you keep going back because you don't handle the short-term pain and sense of rejection plus you make no real preparations to help you, the Get Out Plan helps to validate your decision to end things and make you accountable for making your life better."
"You should only do this if you 1) keep falling off the wagon with the same person, 2) are in a causal arrangement, or 3), are in an abusive relationship."
"There are two glaring questions that you need to ask yourself before starting:
1) Do I want to break up or am I buying time to remain invested?
2) How much worse do I need to be treated or how much more drama do I want to engage in before it's enough?"
Then she give some practical advise about how to go through with this, like:
- Set a deadline, preferably 1-3 months (max 6 months)
- Or choose The Next Big (Shitty) Thing that happens (even if it happens tomorrow)
- Tell someone trustworthy
- Begin slowly breaking habits to make you withdraw and gain objectivity
- Stop responding to every contact (not after 10 PM, wait longer to reply to texts)
- Stop engageing, stop explaining
- Stop agreeing to every meeting he suggests
- Don't let the sex blind you
- Be careful of alcohol
- Pay more attention to his actions
- Seek professional help
- Get a life
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 3:25:57 GMT
I see a forum like this as helpful for getting viewpoints, but as far as taking everyone's opinion and advice too heavily I just kind of see it as a mish mash of views, no one is beholden to anyone else here. It's all stuff you can consider or dismiss actually. We are all just random strangers who share some similarities around attachment (or are opposites as the case may be lol). You don't have to justify yourself for anything, and anyone who has a huge reaction to anything going on with you is probably working through some of their own stuff. These boards are useful for that too.
I see it as people just weighing in on discussions not people taking a vested interest in how you conduct your relationships. But maybe people do get more involved than that, I don't know.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 30, 2019 5:36:23 GMT
I see a forum like this as helpful for getting viewpoints, but as far as taking everyone's opinion and advice too heavily I just kind of see it as a mish mash of views, no one is beholden to anyone else here. It's all stuff you can consider or dismiss actually. We are all just random strangers who share some similarities around attachment (or are opposites as the case may be lol). You don't have to justify yourself for anything, and anyone who has a huge reaction to anything going on with you is probably working through some of their own stuff. These boards are useful for that too. I see it as people just weighing in on discussions not people taking a vested interest in how you conduct your relationships. But maybe people do get more involved than that, I don't know. I totally agree with you - I think that the people-pleasing / fear of abandonment of support etc just makes me feel guilty... but hey, that’s one thing I’m working on. I went back and read some of my earlier posts, and people’s responses - and I’m remembering how I know he’s struggling with depression and here I am trying to figure out how he feels romantically... it’s not right, as you pointed out earlier. My depression has come back pretty bad recently yet I still am trying to figure this out at points - Sometimes I feel crazy... because as I’ve said numerous times, I know logically what to do and even how I should think of it. But I’m acting terribly at times... the pressuring is terrible. I feel guilty. I wish I could take back the response I sent him when he said a lot was going on. I wasn’t mean at all, but wtf, why did I have to make it about me? I feel repulsed by myself. This is that part where I don’t know the lines between standing up for myself and what I need and what others need. It’s so terrible. I added more pressure, when I really want to be a source of less pressure. And even if I said that now, it’d prob seem like pressure. Ugh. I’ve really dug myself in a hole. - Try not to beat yourself up. I don’t think you added pressure by expressing yourself. You can’t always be a source of less pressure or there’s no five and take in the relationship. You need to not abandon yourself first. Be true to yourself. Once he sees the real you and what you want, he can decide if he’s in or out. That’s his choice and you’re not responsible for how he feels or reacts. You can be calm and rational and still present your position and how you feel. There is a middle ground between people pleasing/being a doormat and blowing up at someone. Try to look for that middle ground. The AP struggle is to abandon oneself and then abandonment usually follows by the partner. We leave ourselves time and time again. This also won’t help anxiety or depression. I would advise you to just be yourself with him- without losing emotion self-control or bending over to placate him. At the end of the day we want people to value us for who we really are- not who we present to them. You can do this! 💙 |
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Post by iz42 on Nov 30, 2019 6:42:53 GMT
I see a forum like this as helpful for getting viewpoints, but as far as taking everyone's opinion and advice too heavily I just kind of see it as a mish mash of views, no one is beholden to anyone else here. It's all stuff you can consider or dismiss actually. We are all just random strangers who share some similarities around attachment (or are opposites as the case may be lol). You don't have to justify yourself for anything, and anyone who has a huge reaction to anything going on with you is probably working through some of their own stuff. These boards are useful for that too. I see it as people just weighing in on discussions not people taking a vested interest in how you conduct your relationships. But maybe people do get more involved than that, I don't know. I totally agree with you - I think that the people-pleasing / fear of abandonment of support etc just makes me feel guilty... but hey, that’s one thing I’m working on. I went back and read some of my earlier posts, and people’s responses - and I’m remembering how I know he’s struggling with depression and here I am trying to figure out how he feels romantically... it’s not right, as you pointed out earlier. My depression has come back pretty bad recently yet I still am trying to figure this out at points - Sometimes I feel crazy... because as I’ve said numerous times, I know logically what to do and even how I should think of it. But I’m acting terribly at times... the pressuring is terrible. I feel guilty. I wish I could take back the response I sent him when he said a lot was going on. I wasn’t mean at all, but wtf, why did I have to make it about me? I feel repulsed by myself. This is that part where I don’t know the lines between standing up for myself and what I need and what others need. It’s so terrible. I added more pressure, when I really want to be a source of less pressure. And even if I said that now, it’d prob seem like pressure. Ugh. I’ve really dug myself in a hole. I agree with what faithopelove said, but it doesn't sound to me like you're in danger of blowing up at him or losing emotional self-control. So far you've been incredibly controlled to the point that he may not even know that you've been upset at all. I know you're afraid of putting pressure on him, but you didn't demand anything from him - you just asked him simply where he stands. There's a big difference there. The kind of thinking you're doing here reminds me of the things that go on in my brain when I'm depressed. I get so angry at myself. So your own frame of mind might be affecting the way you're viewing the whole situation. It's painful to have to accept that he's not ready for a relationship, and it's especially hard to grasp without much input from him. It sounds like you're blaming yourself so you can have an explanation for what happened. I get that, but I actually think he deserves more of the blame than you're giving him. He could have stepped up and told you he wasn't ready, he could have explained why he was upset by what you said (if he actually was), he could have told you that he wants to try a relationship but he needs more time. Instead, he avoided direct communication and sent mixed signals for months on end. Yes he's depressed, but he shouldn't get a free pass to hurt other people. |
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Post by serenity on Nov 30, 2019 7:54:09 GMT
Hugs Caroline,
I wouldn't read his lack of response as a rejection at all, or see it as you writing something `wrong'. Its just that expressing his vulnerable feelings for you (or thinking about sexual intimacy) is not something he's easily capable of right now (is how I read it). I know you wrote that message intending to express something that made you feel vulnerable, and you hoped for reassurance. I'm sure he thinks he gave it to you too, (lol) But even though you didn't mean to, you were urging him to express his feelings for you, which required him to be vulnerable, if you see what I mean? And he can't do that easily right now (and avoidants can really struggle with that in general). Most of what you said was positive and loving, so I don't think you did any damage there. You just asked a `feeling' question, and he can't answer it.
I *think* that what you want is to start a dating relationship with him again? If so, then this is all you have to work yourself up to asking in the short term, being mindful he is probably scared about his erectile dysfunction. It might be too scary for him to even consider dating, but you can try. Just make sure not to ask `how does he feel about you' type questions (really scary for an avoidant in withdrawral) but instead communicate that you love him, want him, wish to date him/make love to him/ spend time with him (whatever it is you feel and want). Even if it results in him saying nothing, you will have expressed yourself authentically without pressuring him to be vulnerable.
I would give some space first, and wait until he reaches out next. If he really can't date or deal with his stuff, its not at all your fault. It might be that its just too hard for him. I hope for both your sakes he can overcome his issues there.
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Post by iz42 on Nov 30, 2019 8:51:14 GMT
I guess I think it’s ok to ask him to be vulnerable. At least a little bit. I mean, otherwise it just becomes tip toeing around. He may not be capable of vulnerability around his feelings but he should be able to answer basic questions like “do you want to meet up,” etc. In my view, the bigger thing is that all of this thinking and planning takes the focus off of Caroline’s mental health, and that seems like the most important thing right now. I hope you can find ways to take care of yourself and find some relaxation caro |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 9:43:37 GMT
Thanks, both. I know you’re both right. I had a moment of just being overwhelmed and beating myself up. It’s always the worst when you don’t know for sure you’re not making things worse for someone you care about. It’s been a hard thing to try to figure out where that line is here. I have never blown up at him or anything like that. Sure I’ve worded a couple of things wrong in person and by text, but never mean or intentionally mean. In typical AP fashion, I’m used to thinking about how the things I might have done wrong when I’m triggered. My triggered states are less these days with working on myself - though they might seem more but it’s honestly just because I’m writing about them when I have them here to get them out in a different way than just journaling or something. It oddly feels more easy to recognize patterns and learn from it when I write them here... maybe cause you guys are so supportive and good at calling things out. I do want to explore more about my truth vs. my anxiety and how does one more consistency tell the difference. Thanks all, you’re all the best. As far as finding your truth vs anxiety, maybe it would help to make a list of facts without interpretations. Example: Fact: I wrote asking him xyz Fact: he didn't answer my question Truth: I feel sad, angry ashamed (whatever you feel) I need communication and honesty. I value trust and commitment. Instead of all the narrative and blaming, you might be able to get to the core points- your emotion (without narrative) and what it tells you about the facts and where the facts are not in line with your actual needs and values and desires. Then you can distinguish where you need to grow and change to come more into alignment with who you really are and what really serves you. |
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Post by serenity on Dec 2, 2019 23:10:57 GMT
I guess I think it’s ok to ask him to be vulnerable. At least a little bit. I mean, otherwise it just becomes tip toeing around. He may not be capable of vulnerability around his feelings but he should be able to answer basic questions like “do you want to meet up,” etc. In my view, the bigger thing is that all of this thinking and planning takes the focus off of Caroline’s mental health, and that seems like the most important thing right now. I hope you can find ways to take care of yourself and find some relaxation caro Thank you iz42 ! Much appreciate your support. I did have a good weekend just focusing on me, good habits, etc. I was also under the spell of pre-that time of the month last week, which I'm guessing played a huge part in a lot of my panic at that event etc... it was off cycle in a way so I didn't realize it. But regardless, I appreciate your support. And I think it is fair to ask someone who you're in a whatever with to be at least a little bit vulnerable — and by being vulnerable yourself, you're really saying, "hey I'd like for you to be vulnerable too." Or that's how I often see it. I agree its fine to encourage someone close to be vulnerable as well. I only believe that asking him to be vulnerable is why he didn't answer. He didn't want to be vulnerable, and that's fine too. Sharing vulnerability is a meaningful part of connection and trust building for me personally. |
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